minutes: HTML Accessibility Task Force Telecon 2011-03-10 [draft]

aloha!

minutes from the 10 March 2011 HTML A11y TF Telecon can be accessed
as hypertext from:

http://www.w3.org/2011/03/10-html-a11y-minutes.html

as an IRC log from:

http://www.w3.org/2011/03/10-html-a11y-irc

and as plain text following this announcement -- as usual, please
log any errors, omissions, corrections, clarifications and the 
like by replying-to this announcement on-list...

note that there will NOT be an HTML A11y TF meeting on 2011-03-17;
HTML A11y TF meetings will resume at the usual time and day on 
2011-03-24

finally, if you have not yet registered for the HTML A11y TF
Face2Face meeting in San Deigo 19 and 20 March 2011, please
do so TODAY:

  http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/201103_ftf/

if you do not register today, you cannot expect to have special
dietary needs met at the face2face, so please register right 
now if you have not already...

    _________________________________________________________

                             - DRAFT -

            HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

10 Mar 2011

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Mar/0091.html

  See also: IRC log - http://www.w3.org/2011/03/10-html-a11y-irc

Attendees

  Present
         Gregory_Rosmaita, JF, Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper,
         MikeSmith, Mike_Smith, Paul_Cotton, Rich, eric, kliehm,
         Léonie_Watson, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly

  Regrets
         Laura_Carlson, Silvia_Pfieffer, Kenny_Johar

  Chair
         Janina_Sajka

  Scribe
         Gregory_Rosmaita

Contents

    * Topics
        1. Face to Face
        2. Update from Facilitators
        3. Face2Face and Associated Deadlines
        4. Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug
           Triage
        5. Actions Review
        6. The <canvas src> Proposal
    * Summary of Action Items
    _________________________________________________________

  <trackbot> Date: 10 March 2011

  <MikeSmith> hmm

  <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

  <janina> agenda: this

  <scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

  <scribe> scribenick: oedipus

Face to Face

  Please Register http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/201103_ftf/

  <MichaelC> agenda:
  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Mar/0090.html

Update from Facilitators

  JS: in case we use full hour, want to mention that re: longdesc we
  have been advised there is an industry group that is concerned that
  it is missing and that will be damaging to their ability to support
  people with disabilities and to get support from browser vendors and
  authors they are working with -- letter on way to W3C from industry
  body by the end of the week expressing concern and...
  ... need for long description mechanism
  ... will alert HTML WG about this in HTML WG call at noon

  PC: can't see any reason to bother HTML WG until can provide copy of
  letter

  JS: ok, good point

  PC: work with team -- get letter on public email list
  ... getting into public list archive is important -- can work with
  JS on this

Face2Face and Associated Deadlines

  JS: need a head-count, so please register at
  http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/201103_ftf/ as soon as
  possible -- which means today --

  CS: if you don't register by 11 march 2011, can't provide special
  lunches as can be requested via registration page

  <janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2011-03.html

  JS: draft agenda for F2F at
  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2011-03.html
  ... specificity -- want to ensure named everything need to look at
  and allotted appropriate time for work

  <JF> +q

  MC: text alternatives request from SteveF
  ... much of agenda split into parallel sessions so that subgroups
  can work in parallel -- still want to have main body meet together,
  but media will be breaking out -- text alternatives not on list yet

  LW: agree with steve, need text alternatives time slot

  JS: anything else?

  JF: media going to compose working agenda for media breakout
  sessions -- feel that have an ordered list of things to be
  accomplished -- recap on sunday morning -- some dial-in commitments
  ... couple of other open issues in issue tracker that are a11y
  related -- need to sit back and look where we are and identify any
  holes need to address

  MC: sunday after lunch session is for that

  JF: issue of timing -- push that a bit higher in stack? will lose
  people on sunday incrememtally

  RS: flying back monday

  JS: want to be sensitive to who is there while we are there, main
  reson for f2f is to resolve problems where we are able to discuss
  issues in person -- overviews not as tricky to do in telecon as is
  seizing the group dynamic
  ... text alternative discussion is stalled -- want to come out of
  F2F with very specific directions for immediate future work -- need
  big boost that comes from solving issues --
  ... things we know about, and things we need to organize (entire
  spec review) -- done once by PF and WAI -- realize need to do this
  every few months

  JF: additional IRC channels?

  MC: join new channel and creates one dynamically -- suggest
  html-a11y-media
  ... keep in mind, IRC channel name goes into the name of the minutes

  JS: would be good to preannounce the IRC channel

  MC: makes sense for media, suggest other subgroups use main channel
  ... almost all of the breakout sessoins include one for media

  JF: works for me

Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage

  JS: want to hear what need to address at F2F

  RS: canvas update: submitted change proposal -- working on how to
  get bounding rectangles for each accessible object -- number of
  things kicked around -- want to impact authors the least while
  adding value
  ... one problem is hit-testing in canvas
  ... canvas today: can draw via canvas, but not great as an
  environment -- when first started a11y work on windows for MSAA,
  what happened is when draw to screen have device context (color
  info, font info, clipping info) -- clipping info used to do
  hit-testing as well as supplying a11y APIs with a rectangle --
  hit-testing very poor in canvas -- suggested that we bind a clipping
  rectangle...
  ... which can be used for hit testing AND binding to a11y API
  ... fallback content becaomes object model bound to Canvas -- for
  author, clipping region based on transformations already used in
  canvas, so easier than CSS -- bind to element in shadow dom, provide
  a11y API computed rectangle AND can do hit-testing (onClick event in
  shadow DOM that is bound to click on canvas -- right now no way to
  do
  ... feedback: google wants examples
  ... solution to problem going to take more work because have to
  redefine how hit-testing is done; may not be completely done until
  LC or after -- asked Maciej for feedback from apple, haven't yet
  received -- that is next step

  PC: ... maciej on 2 weeks of vacation
  ... away until 20 march 2011

  RS: didn't know -- thatnks
  ... really need to investigate this -- solves VERY big problem for
  canvas -- allows clickable regions AND operate off of the DOM --
  that is a major gain
  ... opened bug on clarification of fallback content is implemented
  -- got feedback from google/webkit -- more editorial than anything
  else

  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas

  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas/Meetings

  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas/Meetings/Minutes

  JS: ARIA Integration at F2F?

  RS: at f2f need to do lexical processing peice for ARIA attributes
  in HTML5 -- me, MCooper, SteveF -- has to go into section 3.2.6 in
  document -- said that is where will go when ARIA went to CR -- told
  hixie we are discussing at face2face and invited his participation

  <JF> +q

  RS: do we need to make changes to ARIA for HTML5 -- number of HTML5
  elements that don't have default semantic role? do we need longdesc
  mechanism for ARIA.next?

  JF: question came up -- in element such as canvas does multiple
  things, can one assign multiple roles?

  RS: aria allows one to take a collection of roles to apply to any
  element -- ARIA 1.0 says "take first valid role and map to a11y
  APIs" -- most a11y apis only take 1 role -- need to investigate how
  to handle multiple roles

  JF: came up in context of another discussion

  RS: Gregg Vanderhieden asked same question for kiosks -- wants to
  use native aria roles, but what if wanted additional one -- ARIA has
  extensibility capability, can set additional role in list, and when
  your AT runs in kiosk, can trigger off other role values

  CS: precedent in UIA

  JF: something to discuss at F2F if have time

  JS: media update?

  JF: good call yesterday -- right now have an omnibus issue (issue 9)
  -- was very vague, so letting go -- working on issue 152 -- what to
  do with multitrack api --associate secondary media files to primary
  video -- proving to be a tricky proposition -- lot of discussion
  with engineers, focusing in on few solutions, hoping that F2F is
  where major progress will take place
  ... disposed of some bugs associated with Issue-9

  issue-9?

  <trackbot> ISSUE-9 does not exist

  JF: couple of bugs we feel can be closed not in closed state -- who
  is responsible for closing bugs we didn't specifically open -- there
  are 2 that still need to be addressed -- all go back to original
  issue: how to support multiple content selection that is
  synchronized

  JS: still looking at 8 proposals?

  JF: still 8 proposals in wiki; discussion focused on 2 or 3
  specific; haven't eliminated any "formally"
  ... discussion focused on 2 or 3 possible solutions

  JS: next step: advance the 2 or 3 on the way to working towards 1

  JF: procedural -- discussion is onging
  ... wiki is a placeholder -- silvia shepherd of wiki pages for media

  JS: need to synchronize is wider than just a11y -- i18n support
  requires it as well, needs wider conversation

  JF: right, not just captions, but subtitles
  ... progress IS being made

  JS: bug triage?

  MK: JF covered media bug clean-up; action 108 can be closed; 3 bugs
  can be closed, 1 or 2 need further comments from media subteam
  others discuss at F2F meeting
  ... Marco and MCooper did usual triage of new a11y bugs this week --
  inbox
  ... "inbox" is empty

  MC: did have 1 bug to bring to wider attention of TF

  <Marco_Ranon> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8659

  MC: Bug 8659 - indicate captions and audio-description

  <kliehm> It says "we wait for the browser vendors to catch up before
  specifying an API".

  <kliehm> If the API is imperative for accessibility, it needs to be
  specified

  MC: don't know why flagged

  <kliehm> pre-Last Call. We suggest to discuss this in the TF telcon.

  JF: this is related to issue-152 again -- questoin is are we
  actually firing an event? answer is "sort of" -- needs to be
  discussed at F2F
  ... not resolved, but once get 152 settled will dispense with this
  bug

  MC: if in results closer to verified and closed -- may need to
  reopen and assign to yourself

  JF: can you do that for me?

  MC: can but not sure if right way to go -- "resolve later" can drop
  off radar

  JF: bug not resolved -- final response is hixie has partially
  accepted point of part of bug -- agrees need API for timed-text data
  -- don't have for multi-track
  ... if can associate with issue-152, ok -- have for text
  alternatives, but not multimedia alternatives

  MC: procedural discussion with JF about administrivia

  JS: in terms of closing bugs we didn't open ourselves, we empowered
  bug triage team to handle them

  MC: correct
  ... moving to "verified" which is "closing" we are empowered to do
  -- chairs will move verified to closed at some point

  JS: annotating that subteam looked at bugs being discussed, alert
  bug triage team to mark "verified" or other --- provide annotation

  MC: don't need to wait for bug triage team -- best handled by media
  subgroup since they have expertise

  JF: those we had questions about are "verified"

Actions Review

  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

  MC: skipping subteam actions

  <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/90

  MC: action-90 on MC -- still open -- related to text alternatives

  <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/101

  <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/105

  MC: action-101 on Gregory - modal for ARIA.next -- will have done
  after CSUN

  <MichaelC> action-105 due 15 April

  <trackbot> ACTION-105 - review w3c bugzilla installation versus
  newest version 4, coordinate with those who volunteered, present
  options and needs due date now 15 April

  <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/106

  GJR: please change action 105 to be due in april

  <JF> +q

  JF: open action page action-109 for sean hayes should be tagged
  "media"

The <canvas src> Proposal

  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Mar/0072.html

  JS: thought in coordination meeting should discuss on call due to
  discussion in email
  ... what do we need to discuss around this proposal? someone
  introduce in summary form?

  RS: haven't really dug into it, but understand request (structural
  fallback)

  JF: TabAtkins made proposal -- his attempt to look at longdesc
  problem and coming up with a new way to solve verbose descriptor
  mechanism -- use CANVAS as magic container with src, can put textual
  equivalent inside of CANVAS tag
  ... multiple roles on element -- silvia asking about this with
  regard to this proposal -- if embed image inside of CANVAS, might
  have confluence of roles that needs to be investigated
  ... interesting proposal, but not the most logical way to achieve
  what we need

  RS: canvas fallback today -- fallback isn't fallbak in canvas
  especially on mobile -- has to be a 1 for 1 mapping between what are
  rendering on content and all in CANVAS sub-DOM

  <JF> <canvas src="complex-chart.png">

  <JF> <table>

  <JF> -data that the chart represents-

  <JF> </table>

  <JF> </canvas>

  RS: longdesc is not a 1-to-1 -- why not just allow img to have
  subtree for fallback

  <Leonie_Watson> +q

  RS: this concept is not new -- did this in XHTML2

  http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2

  RS: if container, just put it in -- subtree that hides underneath
  image specified by canvas -- can also do with object

  JF: understand -- this is what is being pitched -- happy that
  engineers coming forward with alternatives -- need for longdesc
  seems to be accepted, but trying to do without baggage of longdesc

  <Leonie_Watson> +1 to JS

  RS: don't want bind to visual rendering -- this is alternative text
  (can be structured) -- value added: if want to see longdesc, don't
  need to fetch in separate instance, but can pull forwared

  GJR: trying to do for canvas and images what OBJECT provided for
  free

  JF: write once use many times
  ... interesting proposal
  ... all for choice -- potentially another tool in toolbox

  <paulc> leaving to Chair the WG Weekly meeting

  JS: can be done without tying to canvas

  RS: worried about it breaking canvas
  ... navigation disconnect betwen image rendered and longdesc being
  exposed

  LW: doesn't solve problem of longdesc on static image?

  RS: depends -- 2 choices: actually have content <IMG src="">Verbose
  Description not rendered by default</IMG>
  ... will authors want this on seperate page

  MR: read proposal looks to me like we are confusing fallback and
  alternative -- fallback giving alternative to longdesc -- something
  UA can provide? how to expose to make aviaiable to those using
  speech and sight

  GJR: worried about use of "fallback" as we corrected use of
  "fallback" for definition of image
 
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/first_2_paragraphs_of_definition_of_img

  JS: no meeting next week
  ... face2face 19 to 20 march 2011 -- thanks to Cyns and microsoft
  for hosting

Summary of Action Items

  [End of minutes]
    _________________________________________________________