W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html-a11y@w3.org > June 2011

Minutes - HTML A11y TF weekly telecon

From: Léonie Watson <lwatson@nomensa.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:22:46 +0100
To: "public-html-a11y@w3.org" <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Message-ID: <D4219A0ECCAE794C9ED7DC6F5A4C0CD537B3584436@jupiter.intranet.nomensa.com>
Good afternoon,

	The minutes from the 23rd June 2011 HTML A11y weekly telecon can be found in the following formats...


Plain text:

23 Jun 2011

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-html-a11y-irc




          LJW, Leonie, JF


     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]media update
         2. [5]Text alternatives subteam update
         3. [6]Canvas subteam update
         4. [7]HTML5 LC spec-review status update
     * [8]Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 23 June 2011

   <paulc> is there an agenda posted for the A11Y TF meeting?

   <paulc> ok

   <MikeSmith> anybody have specific items you'd like to add to the

   <MikeSmith> action-24?

   <trackbot> ACTION-24 -- Steve Faulkner to raise bug on ARIA being
   restricted to a11y -- due 2010-04-13 -- CLOSED

   <trackbot> [9]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/24

      [9] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/24

   <paulc> Do you need to tell Zakim which meeting this is?

   <paulc> It appears in my log that Zakim still thinks this is the
   Media Subteam Teleconference.


     [10] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List

   <scribe> scribe: LJW

   <MikeSmith> scribe: Leonie

   <scribe> scribe: LJW

   <JF> zakin, who's here?

   <MikeSmith> scribenick: Leonie

media update

   JF: We had an interesting call yesterday, revisiting the poster alt
   issue (now referred to as pause video).

   <MikeSmith> we are now using the term "paused media" to refer to
   what we had been called the "poster alt issue"

   JF: We were fortunate to have Kelly Ford, Jim Allen and Jean
   Spellman join us. We got some possible ideas on paper on how to
   solve this problem. We wanted very clear understanding of the UX.
   ... We didn't come up with a definitive result, but I think the UA
   people have a more clear understanding of the issue we're grappling
   with. I emailed out an update of the issue to the HTML A11y list.
   ... The concern with ARIA being a CR is that it's hard to re-open it
   at this stage.
   ... The difficulty is that to use ARIA means that the description is
   flattened out, without semantic structure.
   ... The way aria-describedby works is to reference an id that could
   be on a paragraph, div or something else.
   ... When the fragment string is pulled back, any HTML contiined is
   returned as flat text.

   MS: That sounds broken to me.

   JF: Correct. It's something that hasn't been fully clarified in the
   ARIA spec, but it's in CR.
   ... So the behaviour hasn't been defined anywhere, and so the
   question becomes *where should it be defined?

   MS: We could let things proceed with ARIA, and try to fix things at
   a later point.

   JF: We could, but if the browsers cannot interpret the fragment
   strig properly, our solution is dead in the water.
   ... Another possibility is to try and get it into UAAG 2.0 perhaps.

   MS: I'm less familiar with the UAAG spec and what it normatively

   JF: I've posed the question to Jim and Jean. Judy, can you shed some

   JB: You've explained it well John in terms of where we want to be,
   but I would least like to disrupt a spec that's in CR.
   ... I would prefer it if these solutions were addressed as
   definitively as can be.

   JF: The place where we have a problem right now, is with the
   implimentation that browsers are doing.

   MS: Someone needs to file a bug...

   JF: I'd need to go and check, but I eblieve there may already be a

   MS: I'd file the bug, send an email to list and flag up with the
   people who represent browser vendors and ask for comment/feedback on
   the bug.

Text alternatives subteam update

   JB: We checked the status of items being worked on, table summary
   was reassigned. There was some discussion about the thread on the
   alternate proposal that's expected on longdesc.
   ... Work is still pending on metaname generator and figcaption. The
   current approach on figcaption is to have the validator throw an
   author warning, and to draw up some use cases that exemplify the

   MS: It would be good to restart some of the discussion with the
   wider TF.

   JB: I'm hoping to get something out o the list.

Canvas subteam update

   RS: We're looking at how we get the bounding dimensions of an object
   on your screen so a magnifier can correct it. We're trying to tie
   this into the hit testing we spoke about.

   <MikeSmith> Paul Bakaus commented on the importance of hit testing

   RS: We could do this by taking the context for canvas and sub
   classing it with a drawing object that has the same properties.
   ... Charles put out a proposal to suggest creating drawing paths and
   associating them with elements of the canvas sub tree. Frank
   suggested putting the bounds on the DOM elements, but we're trying
   to keep the same DOM that we have for the rest of the spec.
   ... Do we need to create issues for these things now? Is this the
   process for after last call?
   ... Should I reuse the same bug as before?

   MS: Yes, then we have the context on it.

   RS: Ian has asked not to be the editor of canvas, so who is the

   MS: We don't have an editor at this moment.

   JF: I nominate Rich!

   MS: Ultimately it's up to the chairs, the responsibility from here
   is on the chairs and they've been having discussions about it.

   JB: I'm hoping the chairs are taking into consideration the benefit
   of having someone involved with the accessibility of this.

   RS: I'd push to be co-editor in that case, not sole editor.

   MS: The chairs will make an announcement, it hasn't fallen between
   the cracks.
   ... The hit testing conversation doesn't seem to have progressed

   RS: I'd like to see the browser vendors become more involved in this

   MS: This is useful outside of the context of accessibility as well.

   RS: Gettings thing done in CSS will take a long time.

   JB: Perhaps those of us who intersect with Frank or David could
   encourage them?

   RS: Defects have to be logged by 3rd Aug, is that right Mike?

   MS: LC comments, yes. It would be good to get them in before then,
   but if we can't it goes back through the same process again.

   RS: I'm seeing people asking bugs, are we really entering comments?
   What's the correct process?

   MS: It depends on the purpose. We say bug because that what it's
   referred to in bugzilla.

   <MikeSmith> Maciej

   MS recapping the aria-describedby content flattening issue.

   <JF> Revised Timeline and New Bug Priority Policy -

     [11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jun/0315.html

   RS: I can check on that.

   <JF> Expectations when adding the TrackerRequest keyword -

     [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jun/0316.html

   JF: This is what we were talking about yesterday on the media call.
   ... The key overview is in the email I sent to the list yesterday.
   ... We need to be sure the string retains the markup.

   <MikeSmith> oops

   RS: The only time that can't happen is if the string is hidden.

   JF: I'm concerned when we say hidden... hideen to who? SIghted users
   or hidden from everyone?
   ... Is alt text hidden? I don't see it, it's in the DOM, it's not
   visible on screen.

   RS: To do what you want to do, we'll need to do what we're doing
   with canvas. We'll have to make it available so the AT can process

   JF: Rich, we really need you to help us with this conversation.

   RS: I'll be there on the media call.
   ... What I'd like to see you do... if you want to hide the content,
   I would make it so it can be rendered visible as an option. That way
   you can have the reference, but once you rendere it... this would
   also help people with a learning disability, or people curious to
   see the text.

HTML5 LC spec-review status update

   <MikeSmith> scribe: JF

   Leonie: has started reviewing the spec and has started a wiki page

   4.5.3 pre element has some issues

   this was first identified by gregory

   MS: don't recall the issue either

   if there are issues there we should get them into the bug system

   <Leonie> [13]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/Block

     [13] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review/Block

   Leonie: the issue is that information that is conveyed via visual
   layout by using pre is not being conveyed to AT

   MS: file the bug sooner rather than later

   we can update info as it evolves

   Leonie: the other issue is about the fig element

   <MikeSmith> 4.5.13 on div

   question is about using div is a core accessibility issue

   <MikeSmith> "Authors are strongly encouraged to view the div element
   as an element of last resort, for when no other element is suitable.
   Use of the div element instead of more appropriate elements leads to
   poor accessibility for readers and poor maintainability for


     [14] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/grouping-content.html#the-div-element

   MS: this is a note very close to the top, it is more of an authoring
   guidance issue

   JB: we should perhaps look at this more closely next week?

   suggest adding it to next week's agenda

   MS: as I look at this, I wonder what is the accessibility problem -
   needs elaboration

   JB: thanks to Leonie for raising this, we need to look at this

   MS: we have been postponing Last Call spec review to top of agenda
   for next week

   anyone who has taken an assignment please be ready for next week

   MS: need to wrap up, anything else?

   <MikeSmith> adjourned

   <MikeSmith> thanks everybody

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]


Nomensa - humanising technology

Léonie Watson, Director of Accessibility & Web Development

tel: +44 (0)117 929 7333
twitter: @we_are_Nomensa @LeonieWatson

Nomensa Email Disclaimer: http://www.nomensa.com/email-disclaimer

© Nomensa Ltd, King William House, 13 Queen Square, Bristol BS1 4NT UK VAT registration: GB 771727411 | Company number: 4214477
Received on Thursday, 23 June 2011 16:23:27 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Friday, 20 January 2023 19:59:02 UTC