minutes: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 2010-09-09 [draft]


minutes from the 9 September 2010 HTML Accessibility Task Foce 
teleconference can be accessed as hypertext at:


as an IRC log at:


and as plain text following my signature -- as usual, please log
any errors, clarifications, mis-attributions, and the like by 
replying-to this announcement on-list...

note that 1 action item was assigned at today's telecon:

   * ACTION-59: MikeSmith to check into making it possible for any
   HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list
   * http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-minutes.html#action02
   * http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/59


                               - DRAFT -

             HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

09 Sep 2010


   See also: IRC log http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-html-a11y-irc


          Cynthia_Shelly, Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina,
          John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Mike, Rich, dsinger,
          Marco_Ranon, Steve_Faulkner

          Laura_Carlson, Martin_Kliehm, Kenny_Johar, Sylvia_Pfeiffer,




     * Topics
         1. Actions Review
         2. funneling public feedback to the HTML Accessibility Task
         3. media subteam update
         4. ARIA mappings subteam update
         5. canvas update
         6. drag and drop
         7. Access-asterisk
     * Summary of Action Items

   <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting

   <trackbot> Date: 09 September 2010

   <scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

   <scribe> scribenick: oedipus

Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

   <MikeSmith> action-57?

   <trackbot> ACTION-57 -- Paul Cotton to provide background keyboard
   support for drag and drop (3 weeks) -- due 2010-09-09 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/57

   MS: don't think paul will be on today's call

   <MikeSmith> action-57 due 2010-09-16

   <trackbot> ACTION-57 Provide background keyboard support for drag
   and drop (3 weeks) due date now 2010-09-16

   JS: concerned about some lagging actions around drag and drop and
   accesskey in terms of closing out bugs by 1 October 2010 as
   determined by the HTML WG chairs

   MS: bug open on drag and drop
   ... don't know about accesskey/access-*

   <MikeSmith> action-54?

   <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Judy Brewer to follow up that NCAM files can
   be used in HTML5 testbed -- due 2010-08-25 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/54


   <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Judy Brewer to follow up that NCAM files can
   be used in HTML5 testbed -- due 2010-08-25 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/54

   JF: Judy needs to get clarification from NCAM -- want to use
   materials as part of test suite

   <MikeSmith> action-47?

   <trackbot> ACTION-47 -- Steve Faulkner to file a bug with HTML 5
   about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289
   http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 --
   due 2010-09-02 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/47

   JF: discussed in yesterday's Media subteam telecon

   MS: not sure if SteveF has completed action item -- filed a large
   number of ARIA bugs

   <MikeSmith> action-28 due 2010-09-16

   <trackbot> ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document
   about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in
   post to list due date now 2010-09-16

   http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Alt_tech_appendix (been up
   since 2010-07-29)


   action-28 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/28

funneling public feedback to the HTML Accessibility Task Force


   chairs recommend use of public-pfwg-comments list as stated in work
   statment, but that list is for feedback on PFWG deliverables

   GJR: believe that Janina and MCooper suggest that public-html-a11y
   should be used instead

   JS: wrong place for TF members -- confounds PFWG's ability to track
   formal responses to PF work; want to open up public-html-a11y to
   public posting so that if someone needs to address TF, can send to
   public-html-a11y -- arguments both pro and con
   ... rammification of using public-html-a11y -- people won't receive
   follow-up; could be flooded with email; prolliferation of responses
   ... on other hand, need mechanism other than bugzilla to have
   technical discussions

   <JF> +q

   JS: simple point of clarification that can be responded to quickly
   -- encourage some to join public-html-a11y to work on issues

   JF: isn't part of A11y TF req that one has to be member of HTML WG
   and the W3C patent policy
   ... if not members, have to CC on response

   MC: 1 of primary reasons didn't make list publically writable

   GJR: notes that bugzilla is the culprit when it comes to
   proliferation of posts

   JF: don't want public-html-a11y to be a "catch-all" place where
   people expect responses

   MS: non-members cannot post to list; could monitor them, but that is
   a burden
   ... other list can be used -- www-style list for technical
   discussions open to public, for example

   MS: 1st need to figure out if what we are doing now is broken -- if
   not, don't change
   ... wanted HTML WG members to be more involved in TF -- allowing
   them to post to TF list without being part of TF doesn't give
   incentive to join

   JS: but then they are cut off from the discussion/threads

   MS: what is problem - does it need fixing?
   ... some people sent cross-posted emessages to public-html and
   public-html-a11y -- threat of starting 2 threads -- not recommended
   that post to both public-html and public-html-a11y
   ... if post message to a member list and a public list, those
   reading message on member list reply only to member list
   ... solution is not to cross post -- restrict to one list or another

   GJR: but public-html-a11y is publically reviewable
   ... people can use archive to keep up on threads and review

   CS: 2 thoughts: 1) reason don't have separate public comments list;
   2) tweak reply-to header to include poster

   MS: can we change the headers?

   MC: think so, but not sure

   MS: will check into header tweaking through admin interface

   JS: more we talk about this, the more i find my mind changing --

   <dsinger_> trackbot, prepare telcon

   JS: problem may just be guidance -- don't want posting to
   public-pfwg-comments -- we could use wai-xtech@w3.org

   MS: not sure necessary for people to send comments to the
   public-html-a11y -- a lot of people think have too many mailing
   lists already
   ... TF is intended to answer to PFWG and HTML WG -- not ment to be a
   public facing group that people expect they can comment to

   CS: if have existing low volume list, that would make sense

   MC: catch-22 problem with wai-xtech -- used for many different
   purposes; no formal way at moment to separate threads -- if someone
   wants to monitor, could be an option

   CS: unlikely that comments on HTML5 will get lost on wai-xtech

   JF: members of HTML WG should be able to post to HTML A11y TF -- if
   HTML WG members want/need advice, they should be able to post to

   JS: can mail support member of PFWG and HTML WG?

   MC: allowing anyone in HTML WG to post to public-html-a11y not so

   CS: change bounce message with instructions on how to get post
   posted to public-html-a11y

   MC: doesn't require approval, but does require processing
   ... extended invitation to HTML WG several times

   JF: goal -- get things done right -- if HTML WG member wants to
   query HTML A11y TF and engage in dialog, should be able to do so

   CS: 1) give HTML WG posting permissions to pubilc-html-a11y or make
   clear why bounce happening

   <scribe> ACTION: MikeSmith - ascertain if can allow posting to
   public-html-a11y by anyone subscribed to public-html [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-58 - - ascertain if can allow posting to
   public-html-a11y by anyone subscribed to public-html [on Michael(tm)
   Smith - due 2010-09-16].

   <MikeSmith> ACTION: MikeSmith to check into making it possible for
   any HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-59 - Check into making it possible for any
   HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list [on Michael(tm) Smith -
   due 2010-09-16].

   MS: can do a copy and paste of email addresses - have categories of
   mailing lists: subscriber (receive mail) accept list (not subscribed
   but allowed to post to it) -- might have to effect change manually,
   but can do that

media subteam update

   <JF> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Checklist

   JF: user reqs piece done; distilled down into a table "Media
   Accessibility Checklist" have to go through user reqs and match to
   existing technologies -- basically need to figure out what
   technologies are impacted by different reequirements
   ... captioning section: 1 user req is "render time synchronized
   cues..." -- API issues, user preferences, rendering
   ... tag user reqs to reorder and reshift based on technology reqs
   ... huge need to get this done for yesterday -- media subteam
   committed to knuckle down, but need specific feedback from
   non-subteam members
   ... even if only have 15 minutes, please consult
   and tag with a11y requirements; goal is to complete over weekend so
   can discuss at TF telecon next week

   <Stevef> hello

   JF: browsers waiting on us also looking at timeline to integrate
   into browsers; urgency comes from fact that UA devs will be shortly
   supporting multimedia components of HTML5 and we need to provide
   them with the reqs and advice
   ... if don't have time to edit wiki, put into email and send to JF

   RS: people reviewing ATAG 2.0 currently; took me a long time to
   process checklist

   JF: not a trivial task, but an essential one -- time constraints
   outside our control, but if don't complete, we will be left standing
   on the station

   DS: CSS WG meeting a few weeks ago; pointed out talked about doing
   media queries to deliver appropriate media -- try to resurrect idea
   -- will make sure mention Media Queries in new charter

   RS: continue work begun with DS on this?

   DS: not necessary; will follow up in CSS WG

   JF: could you or someone from CSS WG take some time to look at
   matrix to ascertain what can be handled by CSS

   DS: read reqs document over weekend -- there was one obvious one
   that jumped out at me; will tag on wiki page

   JS: presentation to wider group torpedoed by VOIP problems;
   rescheduled to discuss in next hour's telecon
   ... will present media reqs on HTML WG telecon today
   ... important that user reqs should not be assumed by wider group --
   will ask if something there that shouldn't be there or if something
   is missing that should be there -- don't want to conflate the 2
   ... now is time to speak of user reqs - take-away: this is reqs list
   against which we are engineering
   ... might be useful for this TF to vote on media requirements list
   -- subteam thinks has gotten feedback from whole TF, but may want to
   log a formal resolution recommending the media a11y reqs

   GJR: would a CfC be appropriate

   MS: need to know from media subteam if there is anything else other
   than what you outlined -- everyone please look at reqs and ensure
   that nothing is missing

ARIA mappings subteam update

   SF: email to public-html with bugs and responses (rejected or


   SF: mapping team identified non-controversial issues; others we need
   to discuss -- haven't had meeting for a few weeks, but will meet
   next week to discuss outstanding issues we need to respond to

   MS: gotten chairs' attention on this; MJS been very responsive
   ... if have delays, let me know and i'll try to expedite

canvas update

   MS: status?

   RS: nothing new -- as said in last call we have proposal, but feel
   that hixie is giving us the run-around; focusing on ARIA integration
   right now - have someone working to resolve issues, once resolved,
   will return to canvas

   MS: chairs announced timeline (deadline to log bugs is 2010-10-01)

   RS: lets get ARIA thing done first; editorial things on ARIA side to
   help -- still areas of tension which need to be resolved

   JS: discussed last week in terms of next steps: what will caret
   drawing API entail?
   ... discussed in leadership meeting with chairs, so is on their

   RS: can also look at apple's proposal about UI events



   RS: privacy concern: exposing specific AT to browser may compromise
   ... would like Cynthia to look at this
   ... device indepent access on mobile devices less dependent on

drag and drop

   RS: gez travelling and on vacation

   <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7721

   SF: question: is HTML5 dnd implemented in most browsers?
   ... is it implemented accessibly anywhere
   ... underscores issue

   MS: huge interoperability problem
   ... if want to use HTML5 dnd willhave hard time getting to work
   across multiple browsers
   ... hard to know how to fix to get to work interoperably

   <kliehm> D&d is implemented but broken in most browsers,
   particularly the event model

   MS: need a fix

   RS: proposal from apple includes device independent drag and drop


   GJR: refers to previous discussions and work on dnd

   RS: apple's proposal needs to be examined from dnd perspective; idea
   is UA would determine gestures or keystrokes to execute drag and
   everything else; selection to drag needs work

   GJR: since there isn't a copy and paste API in HTML5, either one
   needs to be added or the workflow for ARIA dnd needs to be adapted
   by HTML5 -- that was the end result of gez' investigation





   JS: clarification on HTML WG bug freeze -- 1 October 2010 -- lends
   urgency to our efforts

   GJR: should i file
   http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs as a bug or
   as an issue (need/requirements for verbose descriptor)

   MS: decision policy doesn't provide us with way to directly escalate
   something to be an issue -- can provide spec text itself for
   ... issue is that long descriptor isn't addressed in spec at all now
   -- will put on next week's agenda

   JS: will add to agenda for discussion next week


Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: MikeSmith to check into making it possible for any
   HTML WG member to post to the a11y TF list [recorded in

   [End of minutes]

Received on Thursday, 9 September 2010 19:01:07 UTC