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minutes: HTML A11y TF telecon 2010-02-04 [draft]

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 17:24:50 +0000
To: public-html-a11y@w3.org
Message-Id: <20100204172040.M22531@hicom.net>

minutes from the 4 February 2010 HTML Accessibility Task Forece 
teleconference are available as hypertext at:


and as an IRC log at:


and as plain text following my signature.  please log any corrections,
clarifications, mis-attributions, and other comments by replying-to 
this announcement on-list.

note that the following RESOLUTION was agreed-to at the 4 Febrauary 
2010 teleconference:

   RESOLUTION: HTML A11y Task Force will meet in Europe at beginning 
               of April

the likelihood is a meeting in Brimingham, U.K. hosted by RNIB (thanks
sally!) on 6/7 April 2010, so if you have difficulties with that date,
please let the chairs and staff contacts know by replying to MCooper's 
call for objections to holding a meeting at such time and venue, which
is located at:


note that TF members have only until 8 February 2010 to reply to 
MCooper's call for objections



                                   - DRAFT -

                 HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

04 Feb 2010


   See also: IRC log [http://www.w3.org/2010/02/04-html-a11y-irc]


          Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, Rich, kliehm, +1.408.307.aaaa,
          +0154558aabb, Kelly_Ford, Bruce_Lawson, +1.514.312.aacc,
          Steve_Faulkner, Ben_Caldwell, Eric_Carlson, Denis_Boudreau,
          Sean_Hayes, [Microsoft], Cynthia_Shelly, Paul_Cotton,
          Wendy_Chisholm, Mike, Jon_Gunderson, +1.609.482.aadd,
          Markku_Hakkinen, +0190561aaee, SCain

          Janina_Sajka, Aurélien, Levy, Joshue_O'Connor, Laura_Carlson,




     * Topics
         1. Meeting Planning/Agenda Review
         2. Task Force Sub-Group Updates
         3. Outstanding Action Item Review
         4. status on face-to-face meeting plan
         5. Media Issues
         6. New Issues & Announcements
     * Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 04 February 2010

   <kliehm> trackbot, start conference

   <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

   <trackbot> Date: 04 February 2010

   <dboudreau> mornin' everyone

   <dboudreau> i'm on the call too now

   <dboudreau> correct

   <paulc> tx

   <scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

   <scribe> scribenick: oedipus

Meeting Planning/Agenda Review

   MS: media issues part of cooper's list from a few weeks ago are high
   priority so want to talk about them on the call today
   ... quick couple of minutes for task force sub-group reports

Task Force Sub-Group Updates

   MS: anyone with update on media?

   <paulc> Can the person typing (scribe) go on mute?

   EC: philip from opera and sylvia and i have been discusssing exposing
   track level attributes media elemeents so possible for scripts to
   query media files, discover if has CC or descriptive audio, [breaking
   ... wiki page with summary of thoughts to this point
   ... welcome feedback from anyone about discussion or contents of wiki
   ... should have more of a report next week

   MS: substantial progress, good
   ... Canvas Sub-Group?

   JRG: monday, Canvas sub-group went through examples of use of shadow
   DOM - Frank Oliver of MS had a checkbox example, i had an accessible
   version of a chart

   <eric_carlson> Media TextAssociations wiki page:

   JRG: FO's checkbox example works functionally with safari and FF; have
   to be code changes so shadow DOM code needs to be inside CANVAS
   element - doesn't work at this point; good proof of concept

   MS: next steps

   JRG: writing specification related to work, suggested code changes to
   get to work

   MS: ownership for spec text?

   JRG: don't recall

   GJR: i believe RichS was going to write up spec text

   minutes from CANVAS call:

Outstanding Action Item Review

   MC: Actions that are due or overdue - all
   ... Action 2 on Cyns

   CS: haven't gotten to it; due date?

   MS: originally 24 december 2009, then 28 january 2010

   <MikeSmithX> action-2?

   <trackbot> ACTION-2 -- Cynthia Shelly to deliver draft of change
   proposal for ARIA additions to HTML 5 by 2009-12-24 -- due 2010-01-28
   -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/2

   CS: haven't been able to sync up with steve
   ... can i have 2 more weeks?

   MC: relates to meta-grouping of projects will discuss later in call

   <MichaelC> action-2 due 18 Feb

   <trackbot> ACTION-2 Deliver draft of change proposal for ARIA
   additions to HTML 5 by 2009-12-24 due date now 18 Feb

   CS: big project

   MS: reset to 18 February 2010

   MC: action 6 on Rich - CANVAS related issue
   ... skip canvas ones - will be reviewed in canvas call

   GJR: yes

   MC: action 8 on Cyns - follow up with IE team about parent/child

   CS: need an additional week

   <MichaelC> action-8 due 11 Feb

   <trackbot> ACTION-8 Follow up with IE team about whether implementers
   are willing to use parent/child/nesting relationships could be used in
   mappings logic due date now 11 Feb

   MC: action 11 on Wendy - timeline for summary verbiage about what AT
   needs to communicate

   WC: joshue and gregory and i met and discussed a lot of topics;
   deatils element over @summary - good reasons for that usage; cell API
   investigated that Cyns proposed; good to have them - at minimum need
   collections for colum and row groupings; have some text we 3 agree
   with -- will send to list today; questions originally going to answer
   was "what is derivable from table markup" what isn't what needs to be;
   scaled back to what we expect to get from DOM an

   MC: think action closeable; falls under "summary" category

   WC: 2 main keywords were Cell API and summary

   CS: moving away from derivable from structure towards details, what is
   thinking - different dirction than from HTML WG

   WC: 1 statement that GJR made was that CAPTION is to @alt as @summary
   is to LONGDESC; info that can be derived from tables with cell api -
   wahat is derivable needs to be in DOM so all apps can interact with it
   ... if have rowspan and colspan info easily derivable, would help
   create query consistency -- middle road between 2 opinions; want to
   keep ascpet of authors to provide explanaion or details - deatils will
   be rich so can handle multi-lingual; not just for blind or screen
   reader users; may help those with cognative disabilities and
   non-native speakers to get better idea

   CS: my reading of details is has visible button or link that opens
   details; suggested using summary when deatails button not acceptable

   WC: propose that @summary be mapped to DETAILS for backwards
   compatibility; details would replace @summary

   CS: how handle situation where not having anything available ok

   GJR: would be availalbe via the DOM

   MS: discuss on mailing list after WC posts; know this is something JS
   has a lot of interest in -- might be best to wait for her in

   CS: please put on agenda for next week

   <MichaelC> close action-11

   <trackbot> ACTION-11 - report on timeline for summary verbiage about
   what AT needs to communicate and report back to HTML5 A11y TF closed

   MC: remaining actions are CANVAS sub-groupo

status on face-to-face meeting plan

   MS: face2face times and place -- seems consensus leaning towards
   europe in april 2010

   MC: question is hosting - 1 specific host candidate have specific
   dates, but can also solicit other hosts
   ... in england could do 6-7 april or 26-29

   CS: latter dates confict with WWWConf

   MC: london or birmingham

   CS: MS has facility in reading

   MS: finalize date first then work with hosts?
   ... april window of opportunity; anyone with strong opinions on early
   or late april speak up

   CS: what about doing WWW - in Raleigh, North Carolina in april

   MS: wonder if Janina can make it

   CS: w4a (web4all) going to convene then in Raleigh

   MS: strongest possiblity having in europe, most likely england, at
   beginning or end of month - if conflicts start of month might be best

   MC: earlier is better to sync with HTML WG timeline; bang out issues
   at f2f would make HTML WG chairs very happy

   MS: good reason to pin to early April 2010
   ... get offer for hosting at beginning of april in U.K. - already have
   one for 6-7 april via RNIB

   MC: need to call for objections to date and location

   MS: do on list - no objections voiced during call
   ... need to give those on list opportunity to provide feedback

   RESOLUTION: HTML A11y Task Force will meet in Europe at beginning of

   MS: can talk with sally about hosting at end of call

Media Issues


   MS: half-hour left
   ... previous URI has media and a11y keywords
   ... neeed to determine which ones are highest priority; ones that are
   higher are 5758

   <MikeSmithX> 5758 insufficient accessibility fallback for <audio> or

   <MikeSmithX> 8187 Section 4.8.7 on video makes no reference to audio

   MS: second with high priority 8187
   ... discuss those 2 today
   ... some feedback on list about this


   MS: sylvia can't be on call due to time differences, but sent very
   good response
   ... sylvia said that 5758 is an open issue for discussion in media
   ... sylvia had comments on 5758 -- 1 comment that applies to all we do
   is getting someone to take ownership of writing a concrete proposal
   ... sylvia also mentioned implementations
   ... as far as 8187, sylvia said that she considers this unresolved --
   MCooper do you concur?

   <eric_carlson> +1 from me as well

   MC: don't feel qualified to concur or not concur, but willing to take
   as reservation; some bugs resolved as "fixed" if sylvia concurs, that
   is a plus 1 that i will accept

   MS: comments on other issues; under control and don't require
   attention of entire TF because no one objected to proposed resolution

   MC: sylvia seemed to bump 5758 up in priority; accept her ok for

   MS: will tag these as a11y

   MC: remove others from a11y tf mailing list

   MS: getting baack to 5758 - seems to be highest priority
   ... comments on how to move forward on this expeditiously


   MS: want to get something concrete out of this
   ... eric, can you give some insight about progress on issue -- seems
   to be linked to what discussed earlier

   EC: which issue?

   MS: 5758 - fallback for video and audio

   EC: specifically the issue we've discussed; to address, first need to
   find further API on audio and video element so script has access to
   info about what kind of media is in media file, so can decide what to
   enable and what to disable for users' need; concentrating on this
   first because fundamental to solution

   MS: anything blocking progress other than limit of amount of time

   EC: time; sylvia mentioned we need to set up media telecons, we've
   been doing it all via email so far; at point where talking would move

   MS: anything anyone in TF or media group can do to expedite?

   EC: not yet

   MS: please follow up on list with this -- if can find time to talk by
   phone let chairs know

   SH: question: direction EC outlining is about working with content -
   means not a fallback in sense if i don't understand this content what
   do i do?
   ... a11y info NOT a fallback, but part of the media; it is not
   fallback, am i missing something?

   EC: may be incorrectly titled issue; 1 of the issues is that media
   file can have alternate representations of its content - audio, audio
   and video, audio video sub-titles, alternate version s of audio file
   or video file; how to expose info in a media file so that scropt can
   configure file to display info according to user's needs

   SH: no objection to that, just pointing out that that is NOT a

   EC: more work needs to be done, no doubt, but that is starting point
   we chose
   ... either bug incorrectly titled, or need a new bug describing
   problem working on now

   SH: 2 bugs - what to do for fallback and what do about exposing
   various components

   MS: worth adding comment to bug issue or Sean can raise additional bug
   just to make clear
   ... title is imprecise -- seems clear that scope of bug is part of,
   but not complete, solution; short term priority is work on that part
   of solution because momentum built
   ... would be good for whole TF to meet in alternate time to accomodate
   those who can't attend current time

   MC: should investigate options, but may want to have media sub-group
   have own calls like CANVAS sub-group

   MS: greater wider task force needs to be filled in on what media
   issues are, what is being persued, what needs to be persued; talking
   with sylvia in real-time would be invaluable
   ... never going to find time that works for everybody, but need to
   make effort to enable those working on media to talk

   MC: will follow up with MS and JS

   MS: week after next would like a detailed media update

   MK: question regarding audio/video - alternative not fallback content
   -- implementing API for content, isn't it feasible as long as devs and
   implementors haven't agreed on video or subtitle format

   EC: video and audio independent of work we are doing; whether vendor
   supports 1 format or another, media files still have logical concept
   of track - streams of diff formats of media in a file (audio, video,
   captions, etc.) API would be higher level abstract way for media
   element to allow script to configure media contained in file
   ... since captions data needs to be exposed via script, need to come
   up with recommendation on how that might work - we are addressing that

   MS: questions, comments?


   MS: end of discussion of media for today -- any other media folks have
   comments, please post them to the list and reply to above post from

   <MikeSmithX> 8659 Media events to indicate captions and audio

   MS: only other 1 being worked on actively is 8659 about events
   ... not sure if anything to discuss; discussion on mailing list about
   timing model which is what this relates to

   EC: does it make sense to expose events floated on list, but don't
   recall a reply

   MS: 1 thing from Dave Singer is comment on bug - is this really right
   way to solve problem was question he raised
   ... weren't any responses
   ... will poke dave to have him re-ask question to solicit responses
   ... nothing else in discussion; no direct reply to DSinger's message,
   rest of discussion didn't touch on DS' question so is still open
   ... can ask DSinger to update us on it
   ... resolve for today about set of issues: 2 we need to keep open as
   issues for a11y TF are 8659 and 5758
   ... rest of issues, remain open in bugzilla -- anyone welcome to
   discuss or follow up on them;
   ... next week, @summary discussion and review set of issues associated
   with @summary to find out which need to add to high priority list
   ... Janina will be chairing next week - focus: forward progress on

   <MichaelC> Media related bugs taken up by the TF:

   MS: call next week at same time


New Issues & Announcements

   RS: when is HTML A11y TF meeting for f2f

   MS: talking about april 6/7 2010 in england; or another time close to
   beginning of apirl in U.K. probably london

   SC: at moment have space in conference facility in birmingham office
   -- london booked; 6/7 april are free; also opening week of 26th april

   MS: leaning towards beginning of month--aim for 6/7 april 2010

   MC: do we want to settle on that or investigate other hosting options
   around that date?

   MS: cyns checking on MS hosting in reading, but would gladly ceede to
   ... propose to TF april 6/7 in birmingham, u.k. hosted by RNIB

   RS: trying to schedule another trip around that time, so need to find
   out soon

   MC: can send call for objections email with plan

   MS: yes, please do -- earliest decision the best

   2 minute warning

   RS: heads up: looking at attributes for HTML that can be triggered via
   CSS Media Queries -- what is best way to do that?

   MS: go directly to CSS WG mailing list (www-style) to give them heads
   up and request discussion
   ... inform CSS WG on their mailing list

   RS: CANVAS sub-group agreed to create accessibleDOM binding for
   CANVAS; MS, Paciello Group, Mozilla, Apple working on it; Hixie says
   "fallback content sufficient" doesn't understand problem; how do we
   make progress -- doing implementations

   MS: way to address getting wording into spec is write change proposal
   & bring to attention of chairs and WG -- first step; if hixie as
   editor is resolved not to make requested change to spec, then is up to
   chairs to put forward a survey or some other method of inquiry
   ... first thing - concrete change proposal that addresses concern

   RS: i'm doing that, but i can't camp out on public-html and get
   carpet-bombed over tangental and philosophical issues; if put out for
   survey, going to have people voting out of ignorance

   MS: not voting per se; microdata split came down to chairs loooking at
   arguments and objectyions put forward and then making informed
   educated decision about strongest arguments and weakest objections; if
   comes down to standoff on this, chairs will review available info and
   make decision

   RS: will give CSS WG a heads up

   MS: HTML WG call starting now - ADJOURN

   my "pleasure"

   <dboudreau> cya guys

   previous: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/28-html-a11y-minutes.html

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 4 February 2010 17:25:19 UTC

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