- From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
- Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 19:10:39 +0100
- To: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
- Cc: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
I posted this in the IRC channel but it was not tracked in the (17:47:00) LeifHS: <summary>: Many authors, such as in government, like to know when they have fulfilled their duty. Today this is "easy": Did you use @summary? Yes or no? If there were a corresponding visible <summary> element (as child of <caption>, I see no other option), then the question could be: Did you use either @summary or <summary>. In my view it is also needed to separate the "clean" caption information from the explanation information that HTML 5 now allows inside <caption>. [Sorry for the interruption.] LH Janina Sajka, Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:07:28 -0500: > Minutes from today's HTML Accessibility Task Force teleconference are > available in text belowand as html at: > http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-html-a11y-minutes.html > > W3C > > - DRAFT - > > HTML Accessibility Task > Force Teleconference > > 17 Dec 2009 > > Agenda > > See also: IRC log > > Attendees > > Present > dsinger, kliehm, AllanJ, Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, > Wendy, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +0127320aaaa, > Cynthia_Shelly, Matt_May, [Microsoft], Laura, Stevef, > Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Jim_Allan, David_Singer, > Wendy_Chisholm, Steve_Faulkner, Henny_Swan, Martin_Kliehm, > Paul_Cotton, Charles_McCathieNevile, Laura_Carlson > > Regrets > Ben_Caldwell, Eric_Carlson, Laura_Carlson, > Stephane_Deschamps, Markku_Hakkinen, Gez_Lemon, Sylvia_Pfeiffer, > Marco_Ranon > > Chair > Janina_Sajka > > Scribe > Stevef, Rich > > Contents > > * Topics > 1. @summary for TABLE > * Summary of Action Items > > __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > <trackbot> Date: 17 December 2009 > > <janina> regrets for december 17 > > <janina> regrets eric_carlson > > <janina> regrets John_Gunderson > > <janina> regrets Marco_Ranon > > <janina> regrets stephane_deschamps > > <janina> regrets Markku_Hakkinen > > <janina> regrets Ben_Caldwell > > <Stevef> scribe:Stevef > > <janina> ~Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon > > <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka > > <janina> agenda: this > > <oedipus> new wiki pages: > > <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings > > <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings/Minutes > > <oedipus> > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings/Minutes/Caucus > (historical) > > <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access > > <oedipus> > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/access_key_requirements > > janina: 2 action items, cyns posted her item, so mark as closed > ... aria conversation has not moved to email, need to get agenda moving > ... touch base with sub teams - canvas > > Rich: asked for canvas neet today, need shadow dom to support > accessibility, also need to support alternate interfaces, > based on commenst from j craig and dave singer > > <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask rich if want to try and get > RWAB XG successor group to develop the shadow DOM as a > RIA > > rich: problem is media quieries don't exist so need to add to CSS, > how do we co-ordinate this, but do believe that it > is needed, shadow dom is not enough, call at 3pm boston time > > janin: can people announce themselves > > dsinger: what is needed new keywords for CSS media queiries?, or > syntax and processing rules/ > > rich: need to support more than the media types in html5 today > > dsinger: there will be new media queries > > rich: examples needed: high contrast, keyword > > dsinger: CSS working groupo supportive of this > > rich: may need user agent to do best fit, requested alternate > ... main issues, shadow dom and alternates > > GJR: suggested shadow DOM as a RIA > > <chaals> [regrets for the meeting today :( ] > > <oedipus> SteveF: as far as shadow DOM and activedescendent as > main way to control? > > rich: yes we are going to want shadow RIA > > <oedipus> tabindex versus SVG-suggested "order" attribute for > Access Element > > <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/#A_order > > <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-access-20090423/#A_media > > janina: main intereste in subteam reports are co-ordination issues > > rich: who in CSS to talk to? > > disnger: put it up on the wiki, CSS mailing list of meetings > > rich: there is a post out on the canvas mailing list , please > repsond dsinger; > > disnger: video subtema report: some stuff up on wiki > > janina: main topic: summary attribute, contraversial, people > continue to discuss, no reoslution, PF has asked for it to > be put back, but still discussion goes on > > cynbs: long thread on mailing list based on chnage proposal, > > @summary for TABLE > > <oedipus> Current State of @summary discussion (CynS) - > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0094.html > > cyns: new stuff suggsted to be put into summary > > <oedipus> we are facing an endemic fear of invisible meta-data and > meta-data in general > > one of the main objection it is hidden, so will probably be > incorrect or out of date > > <janina> q! > > cyns: hidden meta data is bad, details has hidden data by default > > <oedipus> s/hidden meta-data is bad/contention is that hidden > meta-data is bad/ > > cyns: validation warning on @summary is a blocker for > accessibility people > ... people have been asking for data, talking past each other as > what means data is not agreed > > <oedipus> > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18%2C_2009 > > cyns: did a a quick review of summary data, found that what was > available was often useful > > <levy-aurelien> meta data is hidden most of the time, the problem > is reable hidden meta data > > <levy-aurelien> readable > > cyns: leif hs made an alternative proposal, seemed inter suggested > media type setting top display hidden mataesting, > but don't have time to pursue, also display of summary (when?) > maybe in authoring scenarios, maciej in particular > didn't like it > > janina: whether data is hidden or not is not an accessibility issue > > <levy-aurelien> it is for cognitive accessibility > > janina: if other users want to use the data, then they should tell > the users agent to display > > cyns: hidden or display is of summary is an issue for authors and > designers > > <oedipus> there is (a) a need for the TABLE's structure and > organization to be communicated to those who are parsing > the TABLE non-visually, or through a VERY small point-of-regard > and (b) no reason why a user agent, an authoring tool, > or any other program cannot provide a means to expose the content > of @summary at a user's request -- whatever form that > request takes, but there is NO usability need to provide ALL users > with a summary which is intended to provide co > > cyns: if summary users toogleable with a default of hidden > > chaals: stuff that the author or user doesn't look at gets broken > quicker than stuff that the author/user does see > > <janina> ack > > chaals: this thinking then leads to statements of summary being > bad for accessinbility, i don't agree with this, what > harm is done by content that is wrong? > > <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say things that go wrong aren't > always harmful, and arguing forever on something that > existed is harmful > > <cyns> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0056.html > near the bottom of this post, there is a > list of summaries from a web crawl that the original analysis > thought poor, but that I think are useful > > <wendy> I'm happy to help. > > chaals: all out of band description stuff suffers from this issue, > one of the design principals missing is does this do > damage/, but if this group were to say, having accessibility > attributes that may contain wrong content does nopt > necessarily cause harm. > > i am losing sound can someone scribe until i can hear again > > <wendy> cynthia: I'm happy to work with you on any of the summary stuff. > > <richardschwerdtfe> scribe: Rich > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: Wendy, I will take you up on that > > <oedipus> scribenick: richardschwerdtfe > > janina: you need someone on the cell API? > > wendy: I can work on both > > cynthia: data analysis. we need to look at this on the call. I > sent a link earlier. > > <oedipus> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0056.html > > cynthia: I need advice (this call for data). I went through > examples of bad summary and more than half were helpful. I > would like someone to weigh in on whether my assessments were useful. > > <Stevef> rich: i am back > > <Stevef> scribe: Stevef > > <richardschwerdtfe> matt: Hixie's statements that some were > harmful were incorrect in my mind. > > cyns: haven't seen people going bthrough and checking crawls > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: I have not seen people that went > through the calls that said whether the summaries were > useful > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: for example calendar, search results, > main content, mp3 downloads, ... many of these were > useful as summaries > > yes: > > I have > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: has anyone spent time going through these? > > <richardschwerdtfe> matt: my recollection of the long list was > that 20 percent were bogus. Some use meta data that was > just garbage. One bad tool should not account for 20% of the > content that was out there. ... the numbers start to turn > around > > also many 'bogus' summarys are never heard by AT users as they are > on layout ttables that are ignored by AT > > <richardschwerdtfe> matt: it easy to pick out things that do what > they were intended to do. > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: I did not go through the whole thing. > The most common summary was calendar > > <richardschwerdtfe> cytnthia: i did not do a percentage but half > were useful which is different from the impression > that others gave. > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina; 50 percent is very good > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: they did identify the table pretty well > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: banner, etc. was a good chunking > mechanism. I need someone from the HTML working group > that can help me surface this. > > <richardschwerdtfe> steve: if that information is in the hidden > meta data that is good. > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia; saying that something is a calendar > is not useful to a sighted user > > <wendy> calendar may not be necessary, it is certainly not "harmful." > > <dsinger> but is it harmful to re-inforce the truth? > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: the hiddenness is not the > accessibility feature. > > summary attribute usage data > http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/summary.html > > <dsinger> perhaps we should therefore make it 'gently visible' by > default (because then people will notice things that > are wrong)... > > <oedipus> dsinger, that is an authoring tool's responsibility > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: I am leaning on keeping summary and > details - which are both hidden. Place text in the > text to visualize captions where necessary. The author should > provide a user controllable switch for showing these. The > browser could provide this functionality. We should further expose > the table API to AT. > > <oedipus> 15 minute warning > > <chaals> [I thnk the validator warnings are one of the big > barriers to consensus] > > <oedipus> dsinger, CAPTION for TABLE is terse descriptor, @summary > for table is long descriptor > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: Am I correct in the disability > community is that the concern is the validator warnings. > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: yes, as it tells the author they can't > do this > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: we now place ourselves in conflict > with U.S. govmt., for example, where summary is > entrenched. > > <LeifHS> <summary>: Many authors, such as in government, like to > know when they have fulfilled their duty. Today this > is "easy": Did you use @summary? Yes or no? If there were a > corresponding visible <summary> element (as child of > <caption>, I see no other option), then the question could be: Did > you use either @summary or <summary>. In my view it > is also needed to separate the "clean" caption information from > the explanation information that HTML 5 now allows > inside <c > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: we perhaps could engineer a better summary > > <richardschwerdtfe> Janina: we need to move through a phase of > re-engineering > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: the wording is not good > > <richardschwerdtfe> Steve: I wanted to say in reference to what > Cynthia was saying. What appeared to be reasonable > summary attributes. What appeared to be layout tables would be > ignored anyway. > > <richardschwerdtfe> Steve: For a layout table, whatever the > content is the summary would be taken away > > <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to note that the hiddenness *is* an > accessibility feature > > <richardschwerdtfe> chaals: the hiddenness is an accessibility > feature. The fact that this stuff is not plastered all > over the page willy nilly is important > > <richardschwerdtfe> chaals: we are minimizing the cognitive > overload by not showing the stuff > > <richardschwerdtfe> q > > <oedipus> > http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Table/LayoutTABLEDeprecation > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: accessibility would state that it > would not stay hidden > > "The summary attribute on table elements was suggested in earlier > versions of the language as a technique for providing > explanatory text for complex tables for users of screen readers. > One of the techniques described above should be used > instead. " current text in the html5 spec says don't use it > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: we don't want to interrupt the reading flow > > <oedipus> RATIONALE: Just as use of BLOCKQUOTE to achieve a > stylistic effect was DEPRECATED in favor of stylesheets in > HTML 4.01, so, too, should use of TABLE for layout and stylistic > purposes should be DEPRECATED in favor of stylesheets > > <richardschwerdtfe> chaals: in the broad view the cognitive > overload matters > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: sure > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: when I said design I also meant > usability concerns > > <richardschwerdtfe> matt: sometimes you need hidden meta data to > recover from problems > > <richardschwerdtfe> dsinger: if it is a feature for the rest of > the world we should let the HTML working group here. > the html working group state that it may be shown. we could say > that it be visible in certain scenarios - like tools > > <AllanJ> agree with chaals, provided the information is > 'revealable' to the user by the User Agent > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: this may be a way out of this morass > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: when we had alt text shown for > tooltips this changed how authors supplied alt text > > <richardschwerdtfe> rich: I think we should require that summary > being shown should be a browser function based on user > demand that they be revealed > > <richardschwerdtfe> Allanj: I agree. it may be useful for some > people. We are looking for this in the user agent > guidelines. > > <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: I think there should be some sort of > reveal function to show more information about content. > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: why should a person with a disability > be the only person that has access to the additional > information > > <oedipus> ported TABLE layout deprecation page to HTML A11y TF wiki: > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table/layout_TABLE_deprecation > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: so this a mechanism for browsers > where they SHOULD provide a feature that shows summary > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: so it seems that we have agreement as > to what this proposal should say > > <oedipus> TWO MINUTE WARNING > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: the first thing is to update the > change proposal and send it to our list and Ian in > particular to see that people can sign up for this > > <oedipus> jim, that's why i use the @summary is to @longdesc as > CAPTION is to @alt > > <richardschwerdtfe> Allanj: we should say this is human useful > metadata. There are things that we want machines to know > about. although there are things that users may need to know about. > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: may I have permission to modify the > change proposal to incorporate this feedback. > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: 14th of January? > > <richardschwerdtfe> cynthia: yes > > <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings/Minutes > > <richardschwerdtfe> ACTION: cynthia create revised summary > proposal for January 14th, 2010 [recorded in > http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01] > > <trackbot> Created ACTION-3 - Create revised summary proposal for > January 14th, 2010 [on Cynthia Shelly - due > 2009-12-24]. > > <richardschwerdtfe> happy new year > > <kliehm> sorry, I had to go to the HTML WG telcon. I'll write my > @summary ideas to the list > > <richardschwerdtfe> janina: we will resume January 7 > > <richardschwerdtfe> zakime, by > > Summary of Action Items > > [NEW] ACTION: cynthia create revised summary proposal for January > 14th, 2010 [recorded in > http://www.w3.org/2009/12/17-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01] > > [End of minutes] > > __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Scribes: Stevef, Rich > Present: dsinger kliehm AllanJ Cooper Gregory_Rosmaita Janina Wendy > Rich_Schwerdtfeger +0127320aaaa Cynthia_Shelly Matt_May [Mi > crosoft] Laura Stevef Michael_Cooper Janina_Sajka Jim_Allan > David_Singer Wendy_Chisholm Steve_Faulkner Henny_Swan Martin_Kliehm > Paul_Cotton Charles_McCathieNevile Laura_Carlson > Regrets: Ben_Caldwell Eric_Carlson Laura_Carlson Stephane_Deschamps > Markku_Hakkinen Gez_Lemon Sylvia_Pfeiffer Marco_Ranon > People with action items: cynthia > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.202.595.7777; > sip:janina@CapitalAccessibility.Com > Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com > > Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. > and Canada > Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com > > Chair, Open Accessibility janina@a11y.org > Linux Foundation http://a11y.org > > Chair, Protocols & Formats > Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/wai/pf > World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
Received on Thursday, 17 December 2009 18:11:15 UTC