RE: Follow up: Clinical Observations Interoperability Telcon @ Tue Oct 30

Kerstin,

Sorry for the confusion. Maybe we can have a short conversation over the phone
to sort it out? I am not sure whether I Cc'ed you on an e-mail thread which Alan
and I were exchanging and thought you were aware of the background. 

Alan's framework is very simple and appealing but at the same time we need to
relate to existing terminology used in various standards in Healthcare and
Pharma. So:

Domain level = Information Model to some extent
Domain level = Terminology and Thesauri to some extent (as they have an implicit
underlying domain model)
Statement level = Information Model to some extent
Record level = Data Model/Implementations of the Domain and Statement level.

Maybe we should focus on "synchronizing" around the vocabulary so that we do not
end up confusing each other.

May I propose that you and Bo gather your questions and we can have a discussion
them on the upcoming Telcon on Tuesday?
Let me know if this works for you and I can put it on the agenda?

Thanks and Regards,

---Vipul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forsberg, Kerstin L [mailto:Kerstin.L.Forsberg@astrazeneca.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 5:22 PM
> To: Kashyap, Vipul; Alan Ruttenberg
> Cc: public-hcls-dse@w3.org
> Subject: RE: Follow up: Clinical Observations Interoperability Telcon @
> Tue Oct 30
> 
> I am getting lost now - different levels, data model vs information model,
> ontological and epistemological issues,  "degenerated" domain ontologies,
> ..., ...
> 
> Alan: I trust you insights and ideas. Regardless of the issues with SDTM,
> DCM, NCIt etc., how would you like to setup a scenario "from a blank
> paper" in which we can enable secondary use of health care data for
> different purpose, including formal reasoning?
> 
> Regards
> Kerstin
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kashyap, Vipul [mailto:VKASHYAP1@PARTNERS.ORG]
> Sent: 4 november 2007 22:56
> To: Forsberg, Kerstin L; Alan Ruttenberg
> Cc: public-hcls-dse@w3.org
> Subject: RE: Follow up: Clinical Observations Interoperability Telcon @
> Tue Oct 30
> 
> 
> 
> Kerstin,
> 
> The issue you bring up here is related to the confounding of ontological
> and
> epistemological issues in clinical and other ontologies as pointed out by
> Barry
> Smith.
> 
> > > The domain level
> > > corresponds to actual things that happen to patients. The statement
> > > level corresponds to observations, and the record level corresponds
> > > to information model.
> 
> [VK] "actual things that happen" is indicative an ontological perspective.
> Observations correspond to what physicians know (or do not know) about
> patients
> based on those actual things and hence are indicative of an
> epistemological
> perspective.
> 
> > Kerstin: Thanks Alan for the reference to an intersting paper. I do
> think
> > I understand the distinction you make between these three different
> levels
> > and how to apply them in clinical informatics.
> 
> [VK] The crucial issue here is: does this have any impact on the design of
> an
> information system? I would believe the separation between the record
> level
> (which I call the data model) and the statement/domain level (which I call
> the
> information model) is important. It will be great if we can identify
> concrete
> use cases in our current effort to show the value of distinguishing
> between
> these various perspectives.
> 
> > - To what level belong in your mind the model of "blood pressure
> > observation, another real-world phenomenon, but of an entirely different
> > sort [than your blood pressure itself]" that Barry outlines in one of
> the
> > postings on his HL7Watch blog 1)? Domain or Statement level?
> 
> [VK] Here's an attempt at answering this question (Alan might differ)
> - Blood Pressure Phenomena = Ontological Entity (Domain Level)
> - Blood Pressure Observation = Epistemological Entity (Statement + Domain
> as it
> refers to the Blood Pressure Phenomena)
> 
> - When both these are mapped into an implementation using tables as in the
> SDTM,
> then we have an "implementation" at the record level...
> 
> Look forward to comments and feedback on this.
> 
> ---Vipul
> 
> 
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Received on Sunday, 4 November 2007 22:36:06 UTC