- From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
- Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:05:27 +0100
- To: "public-fx@w3.org" <public-fx@w3.org>
Minutes:
http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html
and as text below:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
14 Mar 2011
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0124.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc
Attendees
Present
heycam, ed, smfr, rik_cabanier, hober, anthony, TabAtkins, CL
Regrets
Chair
erik
Scribe
smfr
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]CSS Animation
2. [6]2D transforms spec
* [7]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 14 March 2011
<scribe> scribenick: smfr
<scribe> Scribenick: smfr
CSS Animation
[8]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS
_Animation
[8]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation
heycam: summarizes css transitoins and animations applying to svg
attributes
first proposal: turn all attributes into properties with the same
name
<heycam>
[9]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS
_Animation#Promoting_attributes_to_properties
[9]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Promoting_attributes_to_properties
(sorry heycam)
(aussies all sound the same)
controvecial to convert all attributes to properties
may end up with property name conflicts; css properties are global,
so property with name 'r' is not acceptable
<heycam>
[10]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CS
S_Animation#Introducing_new_properties
[10]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Introducing_new_properties
second proposal: new properties for attributes, but use different
names
e.g. r -> circle-radius
<heycam> <circle circle-radius="100"/>
but this breaks correspondence between properties and presentation
attributes, so confusing
would need to define how e.g. circle-radius and r would interact
third option: add extra syntax to css transitions/animation to allow
targeting attributes
<heycam>
[11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CS
S_Animation#Allowing_CSS_Transitions.2FAnimations_to_target_attribut
es_directly
[11]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Allowing_CSS_Transitions.2FAnimations_to_target_attributes_directly
<heycam>
[12]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CS
S_Animation#Conclusions
[12]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Conclusions
SVG WG preferred the functional syntax in the conclusion section
wouldn't be able to transition svg attributes directly in css,
because you can't use attr(x) on the LHS outside the keyframes
smfr: there should be nothing special about css parsing inside of
keyframes, so i don't like this proposal
... functional syntax on LHS is weird
TabAtkins: points to dean's proposal in email
<ed>
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0127.ht
ml
[13]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0127.html
heycam: strange to extract special meaning out of "-attr-"
identifiers on the LHS
<ed>
[14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0128.ht
ml
[14]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0128.html
heycam: prefer the second option
... it's more of a wholesale change to svg to make a bunch of
attributes into newly named properties
TabAtkins: this proposal seems similar to -attr-r
... attribute-targeting as a magic hack is untenable if general
enough for transitions as well as animations
... OK with option 2 or -attr-
smfr: -attr may conflict with vendor prefixes
TabAtkins: could use attr- and claim it as a unique prefix
anthony_work: can you use this to apply style to content?
TabAtkins: yes
... like setting HTML attributes which map to CSS
like the normal cascade; the presentational attribute loses
(who just spoke?)
<cabanier> is 'display' animatable?
TabAtkins: we talked about all properties being animatable
smfr: i was going to try it and see if there were perf issues
TabAtkins: there's an issue to change transiton-property default to
'none'
heycam: does it make sense to target every attribute, or only
animatable ones?
... don't want to modify the DOM attribute property value on
animations
TabAtkins: say that only subset of attributes are mapped to
properties
heycam: limit to simple values; lengths, numbers etc
... we've heard concrete arguments about option 3
... haven't heard technical arguments against property promotion
idea
ChrisL: CSS WG doesn't like adding lots of properties, and
element-specific properties
... adding cx and cy properties that only apply to circles would not
be liked
heycam: don't want to expand out property tables on every element
smfr: how many properties are we talking about?
<heycam>
[15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Ani
mation#Regular_Attributes
[15]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Regular_Attributes
heycam: about 45 new properties
... roc suggested that rather than adding e.g. circle-radius and
ellipse-x-radius, see where properties are similar and merge them
TabAtkins: but this list has cx, x, rx so this list hasn't been
folded
... if implementations can only use memory for SVG elements, then
the number of new properties shouldn't be an issue
heycam: was this the main objection?
ChrisL: yes
TabAtkins: do we want to go with the attr- prefix or more
specialized property names
heycam: maybe don't need to decide now
... x can be a single value on rect, but a list on text
... so need to be careful with possibly conflicting values
<ed> dx,dy has the same issue (for filters vs text elements)
TabAtkins: mostly an issue for the spec, not authors
heycam: if we go the attr- route then we could not create new
presentation attributes on the elements
TabAtkins: wouldn't add new attributes even with the specialized
names
heycam: what to do with SVG DOM obects like SVGAnimatedLength
TabAtkins: issue seeing the animating value from JS
heycam: SVG is interested in something easier to use than
SVGAnimatedLength
<scribe> ACTION: take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - take
<scribe> ACTION: TabAtkins take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded
in [17]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - TabAtkins
<scribe> ACTION: Tab take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Tab
darn
<heycam> trackbot, users?
<trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, users?'.
Please refer to [19]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
[19] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
<heycam> trackbot, who do you know about?
<trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, who do you
know about?'. Please refer to
[20]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
[20] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
<ChrisL> trackbot, status
<scribe> ACTION: cameron to take attr- proposal to SVG WG [recorded
in [21]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Take attr- proposal to SVG WG [on
Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-21].
2D transforms spec
<ed>
[22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/FX-Taskforce/2DTransforms
ToDoList
[22]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/FX-Taskforce/2DTransformsToDoList
anthony_work: made a TODO list
heycam: how do we proceed through this list?
smfr: take to email, the discuss things we need to
anthony_work: if you see issues that are easy to address, go in and
edit the wiki page or let me know
smfr: what is "add IDL" for?
... issue is that CSS OM is in flux, and the IDL that used to be
there relied on something like CSSValues that were removed?
heycam: does transform become attr-transform?
anthony_work: was assuming it would stay as transform
... what does this mean for the SVG animation interfaces?
... some content uses them, we can't just drop them
heycam: we should discuss what happens with SVG DOM, and if it
changes we will need IDL for it
... wiki should make it clear that we won't add the CSS OM
interfaces, just the SVG ones
... SVG DOM interfaces could just be defined in SVG, and not in this
spec
anthony_work: i like that
ed: i would like to see css2d transforms interfaces, e.g CSSMatrix
interface compatible with svg objects
smfr: we should strive to make a single matrix class
... issue with 2d vs. 3d transform matrix
TabAtkins: we should start with a 4x4 matrix
smfr: you have to say what happens when you apply a 3d matrix to
something that can only render 2d
TabAtkins: you can specify what happens (flatten or whatever)
anthony_work: would prefer the transform doesn't apply, to avoid
behavioral differences
smfr describes issues around supporting 3d css properties but not
being able to render 3d
<ed> trackbot, end telcon
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: cameron to take attr- proposal to SVG WG [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Tab take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: TabAtkins take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [27]scribe.perl version 1.135
([28]CVS log)
$Date: 2011/03/14 21:00:17 $
_________________________________________________________
[27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
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Check for newer version at [29]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
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[29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/properties/attributes/
Succeeded: s/anthony_work:/heycam:/
Succeeded: s/c-x and c-y/cx and cy/
Succeeded: s/css matrix/css2d transforms interfaces, e.g CSSMatrix/
Found ScribeNick: smfr
Found ScribeNick: smfr
Inferring Scribes: smfr
Present: heycam ed smfr rik_cabanier hober anthony TabAtkins CL
Agenda: [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/01
24.html
Found Date: 14 Mar 2011
Guessing minutes URL: [31]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html
People with action items: attr- cameron proposal tab tabatkins take
[30]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0124.html
[31] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html
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[32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
--
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Monday, 14 March 2011 21:06:35 UTC