Dan McCreary, Dan McCreary Associates
Leigh Klotz, Xerox (minutes)
Philip Fennell, MarkLogic
Steven Pemberton, CWI (chair)
Erik Bruchez, Orbeon
Alain Couthuries, AgenceXML
Philip Fennell: I always thought
the form and the data were separate things. They are using the same
URI with content type negotiation.
Steven Pemberton: You could almost see
the XForm as a sort of stylesheet with a bit more semantics that
CSS. Resources are meant to be editable in HTTP. Using XForms for
that is a slightly different way of doing the same thing.
Philip Fennell: The guy gave another
example of retrieving a JPEG image or an HTML page that references
the same image; the HTML page is, in effect, another representation
of the same thing. It's not too far removed from that, is it?
Steven Pemberton: It's true. Another
similar philosophical issue I've had, is when you request a
resource and there's a CSS file, you get a presentation of the
resource. You could also imagine a variation on URLs where you
retrieve a CSS file and as a parameter you give an HTML page that
you want to be displayed and you get a presentation that looks
exactly the same. What's the position on resources there; is the
CSS file the resource? It's related to your philosophical
problem.
Philip Fennell: When you regard the
XForm as a stylesheet, yes, you're using it to represent the
instance data.
Leigh Klotz: You can do that with
HTML4 GET to get a form and POST to update, and there are different
representations. XForm is just a tool and you can use it or misuse
it.
Philip Fennell: Then how when you want
an HTML representation of the resource, how do you differentiate
between returning the XForms representation and the data?
Leigh Klotz: With XSLTForms it's more
complicated because the returned page is an XSLT, and the mediatype
must be application/xml.
Steven Pemberton: It's not clear
that Kurt's going to be there. We've got XBL2, Nick's Xpath 2.0,
AVT's from Erik, and the spec itself (the bulk of the
meeting).
Steven Pemberton: Is there anything
else we want to put on the agenda? XML Events 2. We have that as a
product and need to discuss it.
Philip Fennell: Transform?
Steven Pemberton: The transform
function? OK.
Steven Pemberton: Erik, me, John
(remotely). Dan?
Dan McCreary: I'll be there the week
before with the NoSQL conference.
Leigh Klotz: Ubiquity XForms
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2011Jul/0018.html
We should recommend what to do about this persistent question. I'd
like to have John here to discuss it.
Steven Pemberton: This came out of
editing.
Leigh Klotz: I told Claudius to use
it. I don't know why we have it. Micah proposed it, but I don't
know why we can't just allow foreign elements. It may be because of
W3C Schema.
Dan McCreary: You can always use
#any.
Steven Pemberton: I'm happy to keep it
if someone is using it.
Leigh Klotz: Or you could just say
anywhere extension is allowed then foreign elements allowed.
Dan McCreary: A simple rule makes the
schema validation easier.
Steven Pemberton: That works for
me.
Leigh Klotz: We could just allow them
where we allow it.
Dan McCreary: That makes sense.
Resolution 2011-07-27.1: We allow a sequence of foreign elements anywhere we currently allow xforms:extension.
Dan McCreary: We use it for
configuring TEI in exsltforms. He has a couple of versions. Any RTE
he has a way to embed within XForms.
Leigh Klotz: I got Claudius to get the
event sequencing right and so on; originally he had a Save button.
I suggested he used extension but he can just use his
namespace.
Leigh Klotz: We need to write the
document around the schema or schemas and use modularization, but I
don't know how to do modularization.
Steven Pemberton: There's M12N and
there's the validator. Maybe that's two issues.
Leigh Klotz: For the W3C validator
they wanted a URL for the spec.
Steven Pemberton: We had an action
item to contact Shane.
Leigh Klotz: Can we cajole him into
taking our schema and producing a document?
Steven Pemberton: I'll contact
Shane.
Leigh Klotz: I don't know about
@appearance. I'm planning to ask Alain to implement this.
label/@for id points to control. It would be tied to the repeat
item if in a repeat. If it refers to an item not relevant, it
wouldn't show.
Dan McCreary: I would like this for
table layout.
Leigh Klotz: Even CSS layout.
Erik Bruchez: I think it's a good idea
to start from an idea and implement it and then come back with
feedback.
Steven Pemberton: I would suggest we
add this to the meeting agenda.
Dan McCreary: I'll ping Kurt.
Leigh Klotz: Just start it and invite
kurt to contribute.
Dan McCreary: Is there a link?
Leigh Klotz: 2010-02-24, 2011-01-26,
2011-03-02, 2011-03-16, 2011-04-20
Steven Pemberton: Search for label in
the minutes.
Leigh Klotz: And @for.
ACTION-1811 Dan McCreary to update label/@for proposal on XForms 2.0 Wiki.
Dan McCreary: The mediatype is ok
for textarea. I haven't done much on trees.
Leigh Klotz: I have a use case for
TEI: phone meeting notes, for question and response.
Leigh Klotz: What's the
status?
Steven Pemberton: Who owns it?
Leigh Klotz: We had decided not to do
it for some reason but I brought it back.
Erik Bruchez: It was what happens when
you delete the context node during the iteration, and the reality
is we have this problem in other cases as well. I don't know what
the next step is?
Steven Pemberton: John seemed to have
problems initially, but said we had to define, and he agreed with
the use cases, but we said more work. It looks like we didn't push
forward.
Erik Bruchez: I think we agreed to do
it.
Erik Bruchez: This was documented in
EXForms.
Leigh Klotz: http://www.exforms.org/conditionals.html
Erik Bruchez:
http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-other-extensions#TOC-Iteration-of-XForms-actions-over-se
Erik Bruchez: There's more detail
needed. Also we can iterate over sequences. I'm not sure we have an
agreement or if the spec says something about when the context node
is removed.
Steven Pemberton: Can you explain the
difference with while? I see...
Erik Bruchez: @iterate=sequence. In
our implementation, the sequence is evaluated once. So subsequent
mutations to the iteration don't matter. It's as simple as that.
There are situations where a @while doesn't cut it. Obviously,
iteration is a useful concept in programming.
Steven Pemberton: It's a bit like our
repeat attribute.
Erik Bruchez: It's similar, but it's
within an action. So typically there are children actions, but you
can put it on a single action. Typically the scenario is a series,
such as books, and doing something to each of them. I think there
were discussions about context and delete, as we say for delete.
The way I look at it, it's an imperative construct to perform
actions, as in JavaScript or Java. I think the simpler the
better.
Steven Pemberton: So how does it
differ from repeat-nodeset?
Leigh Klotz: It's action, not
presentation.
Erik Bruchez: Repeat doesn't allow you
do to actions. We have (had) a nodeset to point to a series of
things; we have bind, repeat, nodeset. The processing model behind
this is different: evaluate the @iterate expressions, for each
iteration repeat the contained action block with the current
context. It's like a for loop. I think xquery with update can have
something similar.
Steven Pemberton: So it doesn't expand
the content, which is what repeat-nodeset does.
Leigh Klotz: It's a third for @if and
@while, which we don't have on presentation elements.
Erik Bruchez: We implement action
elements in a straightforward way. action is really conceptually an
interpreter for actions, an imperative language. This is one of the
useful cases which is hard to do with while, unless you have a
separate index.
Steven Pemberton: Clearly iterate is
far easier to use in every case than while.
Steven Pemberton: Do we have a wiki
page for this?
Leigh Klotz: It's fairly spare. I put
it in the XForms 12 category.
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Create_a_construct_for_actions_that_iterates_over_a_nodeset
ACTION-1812 Erik Bruchez to finish writeup for @iterate
Philip Fennell: I've done some work
on this. I need to try it in other transform engines.
Erik Bruchez: Is there a notion of
validity of an element in Schematron? Can it be an alternative to
XML Schema for assigning validity to nodes?
Philip Fennell: Yes. You can validate
schema as well as structure.
Erik Bruchez: Is there structural
validation as well?
Philip Fennell: Return true if an
element is present, or if a value is true. The assertions are
whatever XPath expression you can conceivable write.
Leigh Klotz: It doesn't assign types,
though, right?
Philip Fennell: Not that I'm aware of.
I suppose there's a way to get types in XPath 2.
Leigh Klotz: RelaxNG has types, and
the W3C schema types are there, but I haven't seen a way to get the
types out of it.
Philip Fennell: I'd like to generate
schematron schemas via XForms. The latter is beyond our capability
at the moment.
Leigh Klotz: So this is a status
report? Should we discuss it at the editorial workshop?
Philip Fennell: I'll try to call
in.