Charlie Wiecha, IBM (co-chair)
Erik Bruchez, Orbeon
John Boyer (co-chair, phone problems)
Kenneth Sklander, Picoforms
Leigh Klotz, Xerox (minutes)
Nick van den Bleeken, Inventive Designers
Paul Butcher, x-port.nte
Rafael Benito, SATEC
Steven Pemberton, CWI/W3C
Uli Lissé, DreamLabs
Keith Wells, IBM
Summer availability questionnaire: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32219/formssummer08/
John Boyer: We need an upcoming chair
for these dates.
Steven Pemberton: I'm available for
both the 10th and 17th.
Charlie Wiecha: When we kicked
things off, we rallied around the Ubiquity code library and
evangelize its use and show its potential for integration into AJAX
libraries such as Dojo. We looked at the submission and instance
modules with just XML data, for example querying flickr and picasa.
So we have a REST call for querying the data and then wrapping the
Dojo data source API with XForms markup, and then wrapping up
existing widgets such as the YUI keystroke box. The general idea
was to approach people familiar with those frameworks and show a
higher level of abstraction, and show how a small change could
re-purpose from flickr to picasa, for example. We do have an XForms
UI layer, and have been working on that, using xf:output as a YUI
calendar. Mark had a pseudoelement under the XForms control, to
expand to render. The xforms control handles the data binding. It's
a clean way to expand XForms for styling. That's all working
nicely.
Charlie Wiecha: The latest theme is
ARIA enablement for those calendar widgets to show to the Protocols
and Formats group and A11Y. [Someone] in the group has picked up
the example form we have and has been decorating it with ARIA
properties and working with the grid so you can navigate it in an
accessible way. We have feelers going out to multimodal, ubiweb
(Dave Raggett),
webapps, and eventually xhtml2.
Steven Pemberton: Ubiweb is the old
device independence group.
Charlie Wiecha: Also, on a related topic, Thomas Ling in my team is doing the first cut of our simplified syntax. He has some initial postings coming up. He re-wrote the simple loan form. He has questions about labels which he will cross-post to the WG list and the Ubiquity project.
Steven Pemberton: Google has
grabbed the word "ubiquity."
Charlie Wiecha: Actually, Mozilla. But
there are quite a few other uses of ubiquity.
Steven Pemberton: It's a branding
issue. It's not quite different enough and may confuse people.
Steven Pemberton: Also, I've been asked to co-chair the technical plenary day committee. That's both long presentations and lightning presentations, and demos. The theme of the day will be "getting technologies to go together."
Charlie Wiecha: I'll chair until John gets his phone fixed.
Charlie Wiecha: Does it affect
us?
Keith Wells: At first glance, I think
they just want us to add the copyright notice to the test
cases.
Nick van den Bleeken: it's a dual license BSD and
W3C test suite license
Charlie Wiecha: Can you report back if
there is any concern?
Action 2008-08-27.1: Keith Wells to investigate http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Aug/0070.html licenses and report back.
Nick van den Bleeken: ...
Charlie Wiecha: I want to ask if BSD
is appropriate terms or if we need Apache. We just need to take a
crack at it.
Need the split to be done soon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Aug/0021.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Aug/0055.html
Charlie Wiecha: The main thing
we've done is to add some IDL to make it useful outside XForms. The
lifecycle is implicit in XForms. That's not the case in a data
module outside XForms. We don't say anything about extensions to it
because we decided that other modules can add anyway. We did add
the common attributes.
Charlie Wiecha: We haven't changed the
name of the 1.2.3 xforms-link-exception to xforms-link-error so it
can be caught by a higher-level module. Here it will be a
notification event. In 1.2 we have additional events. It will be
targeted at the instance element, not the model.
Charlie Wiecha: load and instance
ready have been added. revalidate triggers the default action and
can be caught. In the IDL in section 1.3 you see the method for
loading instance data. It does the load and then terminates with
instance-ready. It's patterned after refresh and revalidate.
Charlie Wiecha: What's the sense of
whether we want to support this IDL load? And also there's
getInstanceDocument, unlike the XForms one today where you required
the ID. We did say last time there was some way to get at the
runtime document. load opens up the possibility for the application
to reload asynchronously.
Leigh Klotz: So load operates
asynchronously and doesn't operate.
Charlie Wiecha: Yes.
Leigh Klotz: How does it get the
data?
Charlie Wiecha: Through the
resource-uri.
Leigh Klotz: When we hook this up to
submission with the next module, how does the submission module
write to the instance?
Charlie Wiecha: We need a set in
addition to the getInstance document, from serialized form or
DOM.
Leigh Klotz: So load doesn't handle
all the lifecycle.
Nick van den Bleeken: And reset.
Charlie Wiecha: For inline data we
will need a reset.
Leigh Klotz: For inline data, we don't
need reset if we have setInstance. It doesn't handle the
reset-from-src-or-submission as Nick says.
Paul Butcher: You could have a
resettable attribute.
Leigh Klotz: I don't see the value,
just use setInstanceDocument. I think it's a rarely used
cost.
Nick van den Bleeken: Can we have another module
examine the host document and see if it contains a reset?
Leigh Klotz: Examining the host
document from an XForms module makes me queasy; what if the reset
is called from JavaScript.
Charlie Wiecha: OK, looks like we have
consensus on setinstnace and context-ready event. It's not clear
how we need to do reset as a higher-level concept yet.
Leigh Klotz: It's clear we need to be
able to do reset, but we don't know how yet.
Charlie Wiecha: Then I'll work on his
this interacts with submission.
Leigh Klotz: It might also be good to
take a look to make sure that namespace inheritance from inline and
from setInstanceDocuement works properly when you describe the
interactions with other modules.
Charlie Wiecha: OK.
Reference to XHTML Modularization, and explanation of meaning of ampersand
Nick van den Bleeken: When John was on vacation
we decided to base the actions module on XML Events 2, and then we
decided that everything it needed was in XML Events 2, but John
thought we couldn't go to a major new version of XML Events in a
minor release of XForms. So what the action module is is XML Events
1.0 plus some things equal to XML Events 2. I don't see why it's a
problem to go to XML Events 2 then.
John Boyer: [back] The if and while
attributes would have to be namespace-qualified now. Such as does
it allow the context node setting the way we do?
Nick van den Bleeken: Yes, it says the host
language.
John Boyer: And what about the
namespace?
Nick van den Bleeken: I don't know.
Charlie Wiecha: This seems to be a
bridging module not useful afterwards.
Nick van den Bleeken: Does XML Events 2 support
chameleon namespacing?
John Boyer: That's the question.
Steven Pemberton: I don't know
either.
Nick van den Bleeken: "This draft alludes to
supporting chameleon use of event elements and
attributes. It is not clear that this is easily supportable by
implementors. It may be that these elements and attributes must be
in their own namespace" from http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-events2/
Nick van den Bleeken: "When XML Events are
included in a host language, all of the facilities required in this
specification MUST be included in the host language. In addition,
the mandatory elements and attributes defined in this specification
MUST be included in the content model of the host language."
Charlie Wiecha: Is there going to be a
2008 update?
Steven Pemberton: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xml-events2
John Boyer: We should put the
"Editor's Draft" in our 1.1 and module specs.
John Boyer: It still has the confusing
picture showing the capture phase going down to the target.
Charlie Wiecha: [irc] the diagram in
the underlying DOM API is very nice; hash dashed lines down to the
target
Steven Pemberton: I'll send myself a
message.
John Boyer: It doesn't say
Chameleon.
Nick van den Bleeken: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080625/#hostconf
John Boyer: What if there are multiple
host documents?
Leigh Klotz: Attributes aren't usually
namespace-qualified.
John Boyer: The host element decides,
which seems reasonable. Is it OK to have xforms content in an xhtml
document and both having unqualified attributes? To me that seems
OK.
Leigh Klotz: If the xforms processor
and the xhtml processor can't cooperate on DOM events they can't
cooperate on XML events.
John Boyer: My processor isn't XML,
but I use XML events in the XForms section.
Leigh Klotz: Then you've implemented
two things: XML events and DOM Events.
John Boyer: What about generated
content?
Leigh Klotz: We initially through
repeat would be a problem for mobile devices, but it's not. Then we
allowed output/@mediatype=text/html. So the host
processor and the xforms processor need to communicate on DOM
modification.
John Boyer: yes.
Leigh Klotz: Is your concern that an
IE plugin might not be able to process unnamespaced attributes on
host markup?
John Boyer: Yes.
Nick van den Bleeken: ...
John Boyer: ...
Nick van den Bleeken: We can say that the adds the
attributes in the default namespace for all actions.
John Boyer: Technically that allows an
author to write an xf:action with event= instead of
ev:event=.
Leigh Klotz: What if you have both
event and ev:event?
John Boyer: I think it sounds like
you're setting up two event listeners.
Leigh Klotz: So you could use event
and if on XForms elements but ev:event and ev:if on XHTML elements
unless the XHTML processor vendor told you otherwise.
John Boyer: Is everybody happy with
that?
Leigh Klotz: With XML Events 2 and
importing?
John Boyer: With XML Events 2;
importing event and if; ev:event and ev:if work as well; if you use
both you get two handlers; some examples.
Paul Butcher: What about
xinclude?
John Boyer: That's why we allow both.
You can use ev:* and * on an xforms element. The same thing will
happen to XHTML2 on the events level as it imports XForms without
namespaces.
Nick van den Bleeken: I'll have a closer look at
event names in dispatch and list the small differences and see if
we're willing to accept those differences. Or we can ask Mark and
the XML Events authors.
Action 2008-08-27.2: Nick van den Bleeken to prepare detailed analysis of effects of moving to XML Events 2 for XForms 1.2.
Steven Pemberton: I posted it this morning.
Kenneth Sklander: Not yet done. 70%
through.
Steven Pemberton: Kenneth, I sent a
comment about a particular feature in XSD 1.1.
Kenneth Sklander: I see it, yes.
Steven Pemberton: [drops]
John Boyer: Should we review it next
week before you send it out?
Kenneth Sklander: Sure.
John Boyer: So please send it out.
Action 2008-08-27.3: Kenneth Sklander to send to list comments on XSD 1.1 for review for next week teleconference.
John Boyer: I explained the
modularization work as being for smaller sized upgrades without
rip-and-replace, and also for streamlined syntax (attribute
decoration and UI element nesting) for expressing an MVC
architecture. Under the covers, we take that attribute decoration
and map it onto an MVC architecture in order to provide a way of
incrementally adopting the other modules we have available as they
find need for advanced features, so there's a nice Onramp. The
attribute decoration methodology is increasingly well-known to AJAX
library users. It seemed to us that this strategy is a good
strategy for allowing us to develop and deploy web-centric W3C
technologies and make them into recommendations without direct
involvement from browser makers. Growth and popularizations of
those technologies will then lead them to natural adoption by
browser vendors.
Charlie Wiecha: To HTML or
WebApps?
John Boyer: Both. I've started making
the requests to visit with XML Security and other working groups. I
explained I'd like to show them some of the work I've been doing to
create an integration between XForms and XML Signatures, and some
of the issues that have come up in applying XML Signatures to an
interactive document format, which is different from applying a
signature to a static, referenceable source. I want to make sure
they don't de-emphasize the types of things we will need, such as
document-centric XForms in ODF. ... I do expect that they'll want
to meet with us as a result of that email.
Charlie Wiecha: Can we open a Wiki
page to track this calendar? Monday at 4 for XG to meet with MMI,
so we want to avoid that as a conflict.
John Boyer: And the F2F agenda. We
also have Wed and Thu virtual days.
Steven Pemberton: I can't tell from
the action what the wording was.
John Boyer: In the bind, data, and
functions modules we are trying to do something like XHTML
modularization. None of our modules say that though. Does XHTML
modules cover extending an XPath function library?
Steven Pemberton: OK.
Steven Pemberton: In modules where we
are just adding attributes or extending an element or attribute
group, it's a little clear what we're doing.
Steven Pemberton: I think I understand
what needs to be said and will send it off tomorrow.
Keith Wells: I cleaned up some of
my actions recently.
Charlie Wiecha: [leaves]
Keith Wells: I'm still working on FF2
and FF3 tests.
John Boyer: You said there were
changes not yet in the test suite?
Keith Wells: Only the header ones that
are still in discussion.
Leigh Klotz: I received the report from Kenneth but have been working on Submission header.
Leigh Klotz: I posted a comment on
Philip Fennel's weblog on the O'Reilly XML site and www-forms and
haven't gotten a response. I think we'll need
combine="append|prepend|replace|error".
John Boyer: Let's pick it back up in
email.
John Boyer: Uli Do you think you
might be able to start the submission module?
Uli Lissé: Not for the next
couple of weeks.