Re: Fw: XForms 1.2 Design Principles, Forms Architecture

Hi Nick,

I think some of the design principles behind the proposed changes are
being lost in this discussion.

The original proposal was that we provide an XForms interpretation of
an HTML form. That is not quite the same as saying that HTML form
elements are now part of XForms, although of course we will need to
document the whole thing somewhere. It is simply about providing
authors with somewere to go when they want to add functionality to
their forms.

Say an author starts with this simple HTML form:

  <form action="search-by-name.php" method="get">
    <input name="fn" />
    <input name="sn" />
  </form>

where can they go next, if they want to improve this form?

Let's say they want to show the full name on the form after a user has
typed it in. Using XForms that's easy:

  <xf:output value=(concat(../fn, ' ', ../sn)" />

But how does our HTML author get access to that simple formulation? At
the moment, with no XForms simplification, they have to leap straight
into the full power of XForms:

  <xf:model>
    <xf:instance>
      <instanceData xmlns="">
        <fn />
        <sn />
      </instanceData>
    </xf:instance>

    <xf:submission action="search-by-name.php" method="get" separator="&amp;" />
  </xf:model>

  <xf:input ref="fn">
    <xf:label>First name</xf:label>
  </xf:input>

  <xf:input ref="sn">
    <xf:label>Surname</xf:label>
  </xf:input>

  <xf:output value=(concat(../fn, ' ', ../sn)" />

So just to get a form with two strings concatenated, our author has
had to learn XForms, including XPath and XML. Not only is this
unnecessary, but it prevents people from using XForms, since the curve
is so steep. And the real irony is that the data that will be sent to
the server in these two examples will be exactly the same!

  search-by-name.php?fn=abc&sn=xyz

What we end up with is a different answer to the question 'where do
they go next'; the answer is that they move to JavaScript to
concatenate their two strings and get the extra functionality that
they need:

  <form action="search-by-name.php" method="get">
    <input name="fn" onchange="output.innerHTML=fn.value + ' ' + sn.value" />
    <input name="sn" onchange="output.innerHTML=fn.value + ' ' + sn.value" />
    <span id="output"></span>
  </form>

It's horrible, because we're now dealing with the DOM, script, event
handlers and so on. But it's still a lot quicker to do this than to
learn XForms! :)


TWO-PRONGED APPROACH

So, my argument when I first proposed that we tackle this problem was
that we should attack it from two sides. The first side involves
simplifyiing XForms itself. We already have lazy authoring, which
would allow our author to remove the instance:

  <xf:model>
    <xf:submission action="search-by-name.php" method="get" separator="&amp;" />
  </xf:model>

  <xf:input ref="fn">
    <xf:label>First name</xf:label>
  </xf:input>

  <xf:input ref="sn">
    <xf:label>Surname</xf:label>
  </xf:input>

  <xf:output value=(concat(../fn, ' ', ../sn)" />

But I proposed also that we get more flexible about the model element,
allowing it to be removed altogether, and allowing other elements
(like submission and bind) to exist outside of the model element. Our
author could now do this:

  <xf:submission action="search-by-name.php" method="get" separator="&amp;" />

  <xf:input ref="fn">
    <xf:label>First name</xf:label>
  </xf:input>

  <xf:input ref="sn">
    <xf:label>Surname</xf:label>
  </xf:input>

  <xf:output value=(concat(../fn, ' ', ../sn)" />

Our form is starting to look a little less scary for a new author, and
not a million miles from its HTML equivalent.

Which brings us to the second line of attack; to allow an HTML form to
actually be a fully-fledged XForm. That means interpreting HTML forms
as if they had been designed using an MVC architecture. One way to do
that is to say that the HTML form element creates a model, a default
instance, and a submission, and further, that each control creates a
node in the default instance (lazy authoring) as well as a bind
statement that connects to that node. Which means that although this
is good old-fashioned HTML:

  <form action="search-by-name.php" method="get">
    <input name="fn" />
    <input name="sn" />
  </form>

It is also 'XForms'. Not necessarily XForms in the mark-up language
sense, but definitely XForms in the processing model sense (think of
it in the same way that XML now has an infoset that is distinct from
the mark-up itself).

So to return to 'the next step' for our HTML author; recall that to
get the first name and surname concatenated on their form, they had to
make use of script and event handlers:

  <form action="search-by-name.php" method="get">
    <input name="fn" onchange="output.innerHTML=fn.value + ' ' + sn.value" />
    <input name="sn" onchange="output.innerHTML=fn.value + ' ' + sn.value" />
    <span id="output"></span>
  </form>

But in our world, where an HTML form is being processed by an XForms
processor, we have a full dependency-engine sitting under the hood! We
don't need to bother registering for the onchange event of every
control, and then digging out the value of the control from the DOM,
before setting another value, also via the DOM. All we have to do is
this (keeping namespace prefixes so as to draw attention to the
elements):

  <form action="search-by-name.php" method="get">
    <input name="fn" />
    <input name="sn" />
    <xf:output value=(concat(../fn, ' ', ../sn)" />
  </form>

And we can simplify this further. As you know, another part of my
proposal was the use of named binds to save the author from having to
get into XPath at this early stage, and on the table at the moment is
the use of the dollar syntax to achieve that. So our form would
become:

  <form action="search-by-name.php" method="get">
    <input name="fn" />
    <input name="sn" />
    <xf:output value=(concat($fn, ' ', $sn)" />
  </form>

So by recasting our HTML form as an XForm, at least in its
architecture and processing life-cycle, we provide authors with the
power to enhance their forms without scripting, and without having to
make the leap to understanding all of XForms.

To illustrate, let's imagine that the author wants to insist that the
user enters at least a surname? In our current XForms model the author
would once again have to embrace all of XForms. In our current HTML
model our author would once again have to dive down to script with
event handlers, probably checking the values just before submitting
the data. But in our new 'simplified XForms' model, the author simply
adds a bind statement:

  <form action="search-by-name.php" method="get">
    <xf:bind name="sn" required="true()" />

    <input name="fn" />
    <input name="sn" />
    <xf:output value=(concat($fn, ' ', $sn)" />
  </form>

In other words, they keep adding more and more of the powerful
features of XForms.

(We're also discussing having @required on UI controls, which would
make this slightly simpler.)

I hope by the way, that this clarifies that we need to support *all*
of the elements in HTML, not just some; by which I mean we need to
provide an 'XForms interpretation' of all of HTML.

Regards,

Mark

2008/4/16  <Nick_Van_den_Bleeken@inventivegroup.com>:
>
> Hi John,
>
> It seems that I am the only one that doesn't likes to have a language that
> has different elements (with different attribute names) that do similar
> things. I personally like to keep a 'programming' language so simple as
> possible (no synonyms for language constructs for example). Because you now
> require an author to know both syntaxes because he almost never works alone
> on it and the other guy is likely to use the other construct that the first
> one is used to. But I think I already stressed this opinion in my previous
> e-mail(s) and I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. Everyone knows my
> standpoint, and if the group wants to add the old html elements to the Core
> XForms language, then I just need to get used to learn all those new
> elements which enable you to do things we already can do with other
> elements.
>
> A last thing I would like to say about this is that I feel that it is
> against what we were saying in Raleigh, I think that the form, fieldset and
> option elements are good candidates to put in a Module XForms for HTML Form
> Authors (or in separate modules).
>
> Regards,
>
>  Nick Van den Bleeken  -  Research & Development Manager
>  Inventive Designers
>  Phone: +32 - 3 - 8210170
>  Fax: +32 - 3 - 8210171
>  Email: Nick_Van_den_Bleeken@inventivegroup.com
>
> public-forms-request@w3.org wrote on 04/16/2008 03:08:08 AM:
>
>
>
>  >
>  > Hi Nick,
>  >
>  > The form tag is described as creating an *outer* model.  Any model
>  > elements *within* it are described as creating inner models to the
>  > outer model implied by the form tag!?!  This means having the form
>  > tag around is useful because it is a convenient place to catch
>  > events targeted at the implied model and implied submission.
>  >
>  > We would not necessarily expect to add fieldset, although it
>  > wouldn't kill us.  At a minimum, HTML5 should be able to attach
>  > their fieldset to XForms "as if it were an xforms:group" by using
>  > the name attribute.
>  >
>  > Yes we are saying XPath is the expression language *for declarative
>  > expressions*.  It is better that these NOT be javascript because we
>  > don't want to give access to javascript in calculations because
>  > javascript functions can access the DOM.  However, for lots of
>  > expressions, how a web author writes them will be easy to
>  > understand.  A plus sign is a plus sign.  Yes, I do expect there
>  > will be violent opposition to this, but the reactions to our ideas
>  > seem to be binary, so it's just something we have to live with and
>  > work on.  They will not be able to make the rejection based on
>  > unavailability of XPath in any real browser, so rejecting the idea
>  > will ultimately come across as obstructionist.
>  >
>  > Finally, as for adding elements we left out on purpose, like
>  > fieldset, I suppose I can't understand the rationale.  We have the
>  > same element that does the same thing, only it is spelled
>  > differently.  The HTML WG and before that WF2 are making the point
>  > that these changes of spelling were made unnecessarily and they are
>  > causing adoption problems for the web author community.  Why not
>  > support the tag?  To wit, notice that select and select1 support
>  > optgroup.  Why?
>  >
>  > If there is no compelling reason *not* to support a tag set from
>  > HTML, then we have to eat our own dogfood here.  We want others to
>  > use XForms because it has precedence as a W3C recommendation, so we
>  > have to be willing to bend a bit and support the reasonable tag
>  > names that set precedents for us.  Tags like fieldset, option,
>  > optgroup and even label don't seem unreasonable.
>  >
>  > In fact, it is interesting to note that our table creation story via
>  > repeat does leave a few things to be desired because we have nothing
>  > more intelligent than repeat to bind together all the other things
>  > needed to really make a table.  It seems to me that whatever we come
>  > up with should borrow as much as possible from HTML table which, in
>  > combination with xforms repeat, could be a very powerful tool.  I
>  > would expect, for example, that at least HTML5 authors should be
>  > able to use *our* repeat to iterate <tr> tags.
>  >
>  > Cheers,
>  > John M. Boyer, Ph.D.
>  > Senior Technical Staff Member
>  > Lotus Forms Architect and Researcher
>  > Chair, W3C Forms Working Group
>  > Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software
>  > IBM Victoria Software Lab
>  > E-Mail: boyerj@ca.ibm.com
>  >
>  > Blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/JohnBoyer
>
>
>  > Blog RSS feed: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/rss/
>  > JohnBoyer?flavor=rssdw
>  >
>  >
>  >
>
> >
>  > Nick_Van_den_Bleeken@inventivegroup.com
>  > Sent by: public-forms-request@w3.org
> > 04/15/2008 02:32 AM
> >
>  > To
> >
>  > XForms <public-forms@w3c.org>
> >
>  > cc
> >
>  > Subject
> >
>  > Fw: XForms 1.2 Design Principles, Forms Architecture
> >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > I noticed that I forgot to copy this e-mail to the list....
>  >
>  > Nick Van den Bleeken  -  Research & Development Manager
>  > Inventive Designers
>  > Phone: +32 - 3 - 8210170
>  > Fax: +32 - 3 - 8210171
>  > Email: Nick_Van_den_Bleeken@inventivegroup.com
>  > ----- Forwarded by Nick Van den Bleeken/Inventive Group on 04/15/
>  > 2008 11:30 AM -----
> >
>  > Nick Van den Bleeken/Inventive Group
> > 04/11/2008 02:57 PM
> >
>  > To
> >
>  > John Boyer <boyerj@ca.ibm.com>
> >
>  > cc
> >
>  > Subject
> >
>  > Re: XForms 1.2 Design Principles, Forms ArchitectureLink
> >
>  >
>
> >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > Personally I think these guidelines are going o have little chance
>  > of getting accepted by all the members of the Forms TF because, as I
>  > read it XForms adopts the name attribute, the form element and
>  > therefore HTML forms needs to have XPath as its expression language, and
> ...
>  >
>  > The more I think about our current approach to import html-form
>  > elements into XForms the more I get doubts about it :
>  >
>  > We are thinking (or have decided) to import the form element which
>  > is conceptually an XForms model. This has some disadvantages :
>  >  1. Event flowing : The form element is currently described as
>  > creating an inner model in the default model. If you explicitly add
>  > the default XForms model element the form element isn't a child
>  > element of the model but I guess you want the event to capture/
>  > bubble from the default model to the inner model. But this doesn't
>  > work, because the form-element is not a child element from the
>  > default model element.
>  >  2. Single root: The advantage of XForms is that when you have two
>  > forms on one page (i.e. two models) you can hierarchically
>  > interchange the elements/controls from the two models
>  >
>  > In XForms we have the group element (with label), in HTML forms they
>  > use fieldset (with legend) to group controls. Are we going to add
>  > the fieldset element to group controls to Core XForms too?
>  >
>  > Don't understand me wrong, the addition of the name attribute (named
>  > binds, other in-line evaluation context) is great, it adds real
>  > functionality to the XForms language. But adding elements that were
>  > left out on purpose because they were replaced by better constructs
>  > is a bit strange for me. What about the idea of creating a module
>  > 'XForms for HTML Form authors' that just defines how those elements
>  > map to Core XForms. Over time we can migrate those features to Core
>  > XForms if we think that they are an improvement to the Core language.
>  >
>  >
>  > I know that this response is a bit high level, and not concrete. But
>  > I will respond in more detail after the group has had time to
>  > respond to this e-mail.
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  >
>  > Nick Van den Bleeken  -  Research & Development Manager
>  > Inventive Designers
>  > Phone: +32 - 3 - 8210170
>  > Fax: +32 - 3 - 8210171
>  > Email: Nick_Van_den_Bleeken@inventivegroup.com
>  >
>  > public-forms-request@w3.org wrote on 04/11/2008 02:44:55 AM:
>  >
>  > >
>  > > To feed the Forms Joint Task Force discussion on "Architecture of
>  > > Forms", I think it makes sense to succinctly state the principles
>  > > that are guiding the design of the XForms 1.2 syntax.  This is only
>  > > my take on it, and I hope this can be honed and refined through
>  > > group discussion this week and early next week so we can send
>  > > something like this out to the task force later next week.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 1) The same forms vocabulary must be expressible in XML syntax and a
>  > > non-XML web syntax.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 2) The forms vocabulary must leverage terms from W3C Recommendations
>  > > where it is possible to do so in lieu of new terms.  Simple
>  > > extensions to existing terms must take priority over new terms.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 3) The forms vocabulary must allow a seamless mapping from a
>  > > conceptual single-layer authoring style to the model-view-
>  > > controller-submission architecture of XForms.
>  > >
>  > > This is the fundamental goal of the task force communicated in the
>  > > WG charters as well as being another way of saying principles #1 and
> #2.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 4) The forms vocabulary must allow the use of terms familiar to
>  > > today's web authors for the conceptual single-layer authoring style.
>  > >
>  > > This is a facet of principle #2 as applied to the HTML Recommendation.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 5) The forms vocabulary must allow the terms that map to the XForms
>  > > architecture to be extended to terms that are unique to the HTML
>  > > forms presentational layer.
>  > >
>  > > For example, a named div in HTML corresponds to a named group in
>  > > XForms vocabulary.  This is necessary because of the precedence of
>  > > div in the W3C HTML Recommendation (principle #1).  However, this is
>  > > not intended to allow new feature creation with terms that ignore
>  > > obvious existing terms in other recommendations like XForms (principle
> #2).
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 6) The forms vocabulary must allow incremental author opt-in of the
>  > > key components and processing models of XForms as they are needed.
>  > >
>  > > This is a facet of principle #2 as applied to XForms.
>  > >
>  > > 6a) instance for declaring a block of XML.
>  > > 6b) submission once server communication of XML data is needed
>  > > during form execution
>  > > 6c) bind for declaring calculations of data values and properties on
>  > > declared blocks of XML
>  > > 6d) Single node binding attributes (e.g. ref) for attaching form
>  > > controls to declared XML data
>  > > 6e) Access to setvalue, insert and delete as actions and as DOM
>  > > script functions as data manipulation needs arise
>  > > 6f) group as form control aggregation needs arise
>  > > 6g) repeat and setindex as row-based content duplication needs arise
>  > > 6h) switch and toggle as conditional content needs arise
>  > > 6i) output as display needs arise for calculated results or
>  > declared XML data
>  > > 6j) other controls such as select1, trigger, submit as the needs for
>  > > their semantics arise
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 7) The forms vocabulary must allow a named form control to be
>  > > synonymous with the datum it collects, thereby implying a data layer.
>  > >
>  > > This is an aspect of principle #3.
>  > >
>  > > 7a) In order to imply a data layer, there must be a containment
>  > > element to define the collection of controls included in the data
>  > > layer.  Due to principle #2 and #4, this must be the form tag.
>  > > 7b) A means of naming the form controls is needed.  Due to principle
>  > > #2 as applied to HTML, this needs to be the 'name' attribute.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 8) The forms vocabulary must allow the data layer to be hierarchic
>  > > based on hierarchy expressed in the user interface.
>  > >
>  > > 8a) It must be possible to express simple hierarchy with a named
>  > > group element.
>  > > 8b) It must be possible to express conditional hierarchic content
>  > > with a named switch element.
>  > > 8c) It must be possible to express repeated hierarchic content with
>  > > a named repeat element.
>  > > 8d) It must be possible for data hierarchy to be implied by the name
>  > > attribute so that HTML to use other grouping elements like div.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 9) The forms vocabulary must allow simple declarative XPath
>  > > expressions for dynamic data value and property calculations.
>  > >
>  > > 9a) The expressions must be able to access the data layer using a
>  > > simple XPath variable syntax that maintains the flat model
>  > > conceptualization familiar to web authors
>  > > 9b) The expressions must be able to access the data layer using
>  > > simple XPath location paths that follow the structure of the user
>  > > interface.  An expression in a form control attribute must be able
>  > > to access the value of a sibling form control with a location path
>  > > containing zero slashes.
>  > > 9c) Aside from the XForms precedence of using XPath for these
>  > > expressions (principle #2), XPath is used in lieu of javascript
>  > > because it avoids conflicts arising from ability to mutate the DOM
>  > > with javascript functions, which conflicts with the intent of the
>  > > declarative calculation system.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 10) The forms vocabulary must allow properties of a datum to be
>  > > expressed as attributes of the corresponding form control in the
>  > > conceptual single-layer authoring style.
>  > >
>  > > 10a) An attribute called "calculate" must be used to express an
>  > > XPath for the value of the datum (and hence the form control).
>  > > 10b) An attribute called "relevant" must be used to express an XPath
>  > > for whether the data and form control are suitable for rendition
>  > andsubmission
>  > > 10c) An attribute called "readonly" must be used to express an XPath
>  > > for whether the data is modifiable.  For compatibility, the special
>  > > keywords 'readonly' and 'true' must be recognized before
>  > > interpreting the attribute content as an XPath
>  > > 10d) An attribute called "datatype" must be used to associate an
>  > > XForms or XML schema datatype with the data of the form control.
>  > > This attribute is mapped to the "type" attribute from XForms, but
>  > > the name "datatype" is used due to the use of preceding use of
>  > > "type" in HTML form controls.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 11) The forms vocabulary must allow dynamic change to the
>  > > presentation via mutation of the data layer.
>  > >
>  > > 11a) The data manipulation actions of XForms (insert, delete,
>  > > setvalue) must be exposed to Javascript with sensible parameter
>  > > defaults that keep authoring simple and based on the names
>  > > established by the name attribute on form controls.
>  > > 11b) It must also be possible to express mutations as declarative
>  > > form control event handlers.
>  > > 11c) It must be possible to express dynamic interactive web
>  > > applications without explicit use of javascript.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 12) The forms vocabulary terms must work in HTML with no namespace
>  > > qualification.
>  > >
>  > > 12a) Attributes derived from XML events must be imported, especially
>  > > event, target and phase.
>  > > 12b) Elements and attributes from XForms must be imported.
>  > > 12c) The null namespace must automatically used for the implied data
> layer
>  > > 12d) The instance element from XForms needs work to ensure that
>  > > unqualified data content is regarded as being in the empty namespace.
>  > >
>  > > Cheers,
>  > > John M. Boyer, Ph.D.
>  > > Senior Technical Staff Member
>  > > Lotus Forms Architect and Researcher
>  > > Chair, W3C Forms Working Group
>  > > Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software
>  > > IBM Victoria Software Lab
>  > > E-Mail: boyerj@ca.ibm.com
>  > >
>  > > Blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/JohnBoyer
>  > > Blog RSS feed: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/rss/
>  > > JohnBoyer?flavor=rssdw
> > Inventive Designers' Email Disclaimer:http://
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Received on Wednesday, 16 April 2008 09:13:02 UTC