Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

Hello all,

This is actually what the idea of Imageshare<https://imageshare.benetech.org/> was based on, a central library of images, 2.5d/3d models, simulations videos, tactile graphics, image descriptions, etc. where teachers (but anyone really) could go to search for these items and choose which accessible accommodation works best for their student.  There could be multiple descriptions for an image for example one for a 3rd grade student and another for a college student.

Here is one such example: Frog Dissection (with tactile 2.5D images)<https://imageshare.benetech.org/btis_resource/frog-dissection-with-tactile-2-5d-images-benetech/>

This work was started at the DIAGRAM Center whose funding has unfortunately ceased.  We are currently looking for a new home for this project.

Thanks
Charles
EOM

From: Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org>
Date: Monday, April 17, 2023 at 8:54 AM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
Cc: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com>, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>, Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, public-epub-wg@w3.org <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023
I can add some perspective on that. What I like to stress is that image
descriptions need to be edited, just like the rest of a manuscript is,
before publication. So, for example, in scholarly publishing and STM,
it's really best to have the author provide what I like to refer to as
"draft descriptions" of any images when they submit the manuscript. Then
it's the publisher's job to refine them to be what would be considered a
_good_ image description, based on context and audience, from an
accessibility point of view. In education (and sometimes in trade), the
images are often commissioned (not supplied by the authors), but how
they're described when commissioned, before they're even created,
probably expresses what the image should show or convey. The same goes
for a description embedded in an image by its creator (e.g., a
photographer or photo agency). The key is to keep in mind that the
description can, and usually should, be fine tuned for where and how
it's being used.

--Bill

On 2023-04-17 11:40, Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
> Very interesting discussion – thanks all!   I can certainly see
> the cases where an embedded description would not play well.
>
> However, in following up on what the IPTC and others have been focused
> on, it is definitely diametrically opposed…and I wonder how the
> industry works to resolve that.  Probably with some rules/best
> practices about how to use embedded when present vs. externally
> provided as override…
>
> Leonard
>
> From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com>
> Date: Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:36 AM
> To: Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org>
> Cc: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>, Leonard Rosenthol
> <lrosenth@adobe.com>, Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>,
> public-epub-wg@w3.org <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
> Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
> 18 April 2023
>
> EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.
>
> Matt and Bill - I agree and have heard from other experts that the
> context of the image is not best served a 'baked in’ description and
> that the context of the image is too important to disregard.
>
> This is why the SIDD approach is attaching the description to the
> specific image within the context of the page, and not to all
> instances of an image. It can go further too to add the most fitting
> description to montages of multiple images and to smaller areas within
> a larger image composition.
>
> Leonard - Maybe wait for the demo to get a better understanding!
>
> Thanks
>
> Ken
>
> Let’s meet up at London Book Fair 2023! [3]
>
> Ken Jones
>
> Director
> Circular Software Limited
> circularsoftware.com [4]
>
> ken@circularsoftware.com
> +44 (0)7974 458642
> @CircularKen [5]
> linkedin.com/in/kenjones [2]
>
>> On 17 Apr 2023, at 16:19, Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org> wrote:
>>
>> To add a bit to what Matt wrote, it's not just that the high school
>> textbook would use different terminology than the medical textbook.
>> In both cases, there may be specific pedagogical reasons the image
>> is being provided; those would influence the descriptions. And one
>> other important concern in education: if an image appears in an
>> assessment (e.g., a quiz), you have to be careful not to give away
>> the answer in the description. Finally, the appropriate level of
>> detail varies considerably from context to context. An embedded
>> description can be useful as a starting point, but it will rarely be
>> exactly what's needed, as-is, in particular usages.
>>
>> --Bill
>>
>> On 2023-04-14 17:50, Matt Garrish wrote:
>>
>> Wouldn’t the idea be for the author of the image to include that
>>
>> information in their asset?
>> I’m not saying you’d never want to do that, but in the case of
>> sharing image alt text and descriptions, is it helpful to have that
>> information embedded in the image when the creator doesn’t know
>> how
>> the image will be used? (Or doesn’t know how it will be used
>> beyond
>> their initial need.)
>> Consider a picture of a heart, to steal an example George brought up
>> years ago when we were considering a database like this for the
>> DIAGRAM description framework. The image could easily be used in
>> both
>> a high school biology textbook and in a medical textbook. Their alt
>> texts and descriptions, however, would likely be significantly
>> different. Context matters as it influences what information
>> you’re
>> supposed to get from the image.
>> The image doesn’t have to be freely available to run into this
>> problem, either.
>> Matt
>> From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2023 4:52 PM
>> To: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>; 'Ken Jones'
>> <ken@circularsoftware.com>
>> Cc: 'Reid, Wendy' <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>; public-epub-wg@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
>> 18 April 2023
>>
>> if the idea is to share alt text and descriptions for (public
>>
>> domain) images
>>
>> Wouldn’t the idea be for the author of the image to include that
>> information in their asset?   Sure, images already out there don’t
>> have the info – but what direction do you want to push the
>> industry?
>> Also, if you did want to refer to images – how do you do that?
>> URL?  Hash?  ISCC? Other?
>>
>> There’s the bigger problem of context that frustrates sharing.
>>
>> The same image can convey significantly different information
>>
>> depending on what it’s being used for.
>>
>> That’s interesting, Matt…do you have an example?
>> Leonard
>> From: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>
>> Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:37 PM
>> To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, 'Ken Jones'
>> <ken@circularsoftware.com>
>> Cc: 'Reid, Wendy' <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, public-epub-wg@w3.org
>> <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
>> Subject: RE: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
>> 18 April 2023
>> EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.
>>
>> The goal should be, instead, to get the data embedded into the
>>
>> assets
>> I’m not sure this would be more helpful if the idea is to share
>> alt
>> text and descriptions for (public domain) images. There’s the
>> bigger
>> problem of context that frustrates sharing. The same image can
>> convey
>> significantly different information depending on what it’s being
>> used for.
>> Matt
>> From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2023 2:39 PM
>> To: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com>
>> Cc: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>; public-epub-wg@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
>> 18 April 2023
>> Got to it from another device – VPNs don’t like you…
>> So it’s a centralized database of image metadata…Seems like the
>> wrong approach on a number of levels.
>> 1 – Centralization has a lot of legal and practical concerns,
>> especially outside the US
>> 2 – I don’t see how the data is useful when it is not connected
>> in
>> any way (that I can tell) to the actual asset.  The goal should be,
>> instead, to get the data embedded into the assets – using modern
>> approaches such as XMP and the new IPTC schemas for accessibility
>>
> (https://iptc.org/news/iptc-announces-new-properties-in-photo-metadata-to-make-images-more-accessible/)
>> 3 – It’s not clear how the data is to actually be used.  Are
>> people expected to write their own applications, to the AirTable
>> API,
>> to search/retrieve the data?  At that times?  Are there any
>> restrictions to doing so – geography, source domains, costs, etc??
>> That’s just my initial thoughts after a few minutes reading the
>> document.
>> Leonard
>> From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com>
>> Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 2:30 PM
>> To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> Cc: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, public-epub-wg@w3.org
>> <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
>> Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
>> 18 April 2023
>> EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.
>> It is reachable.
>> Others are reaching it.
>> Maybe you have a security restriction?
>> Please contact me directly if you need help.
>> Thanks
>> Ken
>> Ken Jones
>> Director
>> Circular Software Limited
>> circularsoftware.com [1] [2]
>> ken@circularsoftware.com
>> +44 (0)7974 458642
>> @CircularKen [3]
>> linkedin.com/in/kenjones [2] [4]
>>
>> On 14 Apr 2023, at 19:22, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Site not reachable ☹
>> https://circular.software/SIDD

>> From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com>
>> Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 2:20 PM
>> To: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
>> Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, public-epub-wg@w3.org
>> <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
>> Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
>> 18 April 2023
>> EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.
>>
>>
>>
> <s_9D8635F5D892873C326C3F890419B7100B6F9874492714A21129B0167BD6A57A_1677828918862_SIDD_Description_Editor.png>
>>
>> Simple Image Descriptions Database [1]
>> circular.software [1]
>> Here’s what we have so far…
>> Thanks
>> Ken
>> Ken Jones
>> Director
>> Circular Software Limited
>> circularsoftware.com [1] [2]
>> ken@circularsoftware.com
>> +44 (0)7974 458642
>> @CircularKen [3]
>> linkedin.com/in/kenjones [2] [4]
>>
>> On 14 Apr 2023, at 18:40, Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> We’ll reschedule that portion of the meeting, but continue with
>> the rest. In the meantime are there any materials we can review?
>> -Wendy
>> From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com>
>> Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM
>> To: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
>> Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, public-epub-wg@w3.org
>> <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
>> Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
>> 18 April 2023
>> [EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.
>> Hi Wendy
>> It is London Book Fair next week so I will be there at the
>> Accessibility: Charting the Waters [5] seminar on the 18th.
>> Can I suggest we reschedule this please?
>> Thanks
>> Ken
>> Let’s meet up at London Book Fair 2023! [6]
>> Ken Jones
>> Director
>> Circular Software Limited
>> circularsoftware.com [1] [2]
>> ken@circularsoftware.com
>> +44 (0)7974 458642
>> @CircularKen [3]
>> linkedin.com/in/kenjones [2] [4]
>> On 14 Apr 2023, at 17:45, Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
>> wrote:
>> @Ken Jones – are there any resources you can provide?
>> From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 12:37 PM
>> To: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, public-epub-wg@w3.org
>> <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
>> Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
>> 18 April 2023
>> [EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.
>> Is there any pre-read on this “SIDD” thing?
>> Leonard
>> From: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
>> Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 12:30 PM
>> To: public-epub-wg@w3.org <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
>> Subject: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18
>> April 2023
>> EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.
>> Hi all,
>> The FXL Accessibility Taskforce will be meeting Tuesday, April 18th
>> at 9AM Boston time, or 13 UTC.
>
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=FXL+Accessibility+Meeting+&iso=20230418T09&p1=250&ah=1

>
>> [7]
>> Agenda:
>> * Reading order, Page Regions, introducing ‘SIDD’ (the Simple
>> Image Descriptions Database) – Ken Jones
>> * Accessible FXL Research Project from LIA [1]
>> * What to do with the TF Work
>> [1]
>
> https://www.fondazionelia.org/en/research-and-development/accessible-fixed-layout-epubs-a-new-research-project-by-fondazione-lia/

>
>> [8]
>> Meeting information can be found here:
>
> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8e109b5f-af50-43e9-ae99-9afff77b58bb/20230418T090000

>
>> [9]
>> See you all Tuesday,
>> Wendy
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://circular.software/SIDD

> [2] https://www.circularsoftware.com/

> [3] https://twitter.com/CircularKen

> [4] http://linkedin.com/in/kenjones

> [5]
> https://www.publishers.org.uk/events/accessibility-charting-the-waters-at-london-book-fair/

> [6] https://calendly.com/circularken/lbf

> [7]
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=FXL+Accessibility+Meeting+&amp;iso=20230418T09&amp;p1=250&amp;ah=1

> [6]
> [8]
> https://www.fondazionelia.org/en/research-and-development/accessible-fixed-layout-epubs-a-new-research-project-by-fondazione-lia/

> [9]
> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8e109b5f-af50-43e9-ae99-9afff77b58bb/20230418T090000

>
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://circularsoftware.com/

> [2] http://linkedin.com/in/kenjones

> [3] https://calendly.com/circularken/lbf

> [4] https://www.circularsoftware.com/

> [5] https://twitter.com/CircularKen

> [6]
> https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=FXL+Accessibility+Meeting+&amp;iso=20230418T09&amp;p1=250&amp;ah=1