Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

Very interesting discussion – thanks all!   I can certainly see the cases where an embedded description would not play well.

However, in following up on what the IPTC and others have been focused on, it is definitely diametrically opposed…and I wonder how the industry works to resolve that.  Probably with some rules/best practices about how to use embedded when present vs. externally provided as override…

Leonard

From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com>
Date: Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:36 AM
To: Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org>
Cc: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, public-epub-wg@w3.org <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18 April 2023

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Matt and Bill - I agree and have heard from other experts that the context of the image is not best served a 'baked in’ description and that the context of the image is too important to disregard.

This is why the SIDD approach is attaching the description to the specific image within the context of the page, and not to all instances of an image. It can go further too to add the most fitting description to montages of multiple images and to smaller areas within a larger image composition.

Leonard - Maybe wait for the demo to get a better understanding!

Thanks
Ken

Let’s meet up at London Book Fair 2023!<https://calendly.com/circularken/lbf>

Ken Jones
Director
Circular Software Limited
circularsoftware.com<https://www.circularsoftware.com/>

ken@circularsoftware.com<mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com>
+44 (0)7974 458642
@CircularKen<https://twitter.com/CircularKen>
linkedin.com/in/kenjones<http://linkedin.com/in/kenjones>


On 17 Apr 2023, at 16:19, Bill Kasdorf <bill.kasdorf@w3.org<mailto:bill.kasdorf@w3.org>> wrote:

To add a bit to what Matt wrote, it's not just that the high school textbook would use different terminology than the medical textbook. In both cases, there may be specific pedagogical reasons the image is being provided; those would influence the descriptions. And one other important concern in education: if an image appears in an assessment (e.g., a quiz), you have to be careful not to give away the answer in the description. Finally, the appropriate level of detail varies considerably from context to context. An embedded description can be useful as a starting point, but it will rarely be exactly what's needed, as-is, in particular usages.

--Bill

On 2023-04-14 17:50, Matt Garrish wrote:

Wouldn’t the idea be for the author of the image to include that
information in their asset?
I’m not saying you’d never want to do that, but in the case of
sharing image alt text and descriptions, is it helpful to have that
information embedded in the image when the creator doesn’t know how
the image will be used? (Or doesn’t know how it will be used beyond
their initial need.)
Consider a picture of a heart, to steal an example George brought up
years ago when we were considering a database like this for the
DIAGRAM description framework. The image could easily be used in both
a high school biology textbook and in a medical textbook. Their alt
texts and descriptions, however, would likely be significantly
different. Context matters as it influences what information you’re
supposed to get from the image.
The image doesn’t have to be freely available to run into this
problem, either.
Matt
From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2023 4:52 PM
To: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>>; 'Ken Jones'
<ken@circularsoftware.com<mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com>>
Cc: 'Reid, Wendy' <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>; public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
18 April 2023

if the idea is to share alt text and descriptions for (public
domain) images

Wouldn’t the idea be for the author of the image to include that
information in their asset?   Sure, images already out there don’t
have the info – but what direction do you want to push the industry?
 Also, if you did want to refer to images – how do you do that?
URL?  Hash?  ISCC? Other?

There’s the bigger problem of context that frustrates sharing.
The same image can convey significantly different information
depending on what it’s being used for.

That’s interesting, Matt…do you have an example?
Leonard
From: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>>
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:37 PM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>, 'Ken Jones'
<ken@circularsoftware.com<mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com>>
Cc: 'Reid, Wendy' <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>, public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>
<public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
18 April 2023
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The goal should be, instead, to get the data embedded into the
assets
I’m not sure this would be more helpful if the idea is to share alt
text and descriptions for (public domain) images. There’s the bigger
problem of context that frustrates sharing. The same image can convey
significantly different information depending on what it’s being
used for.
Matt
From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2023 2:39 PM
To: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com<mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com>>
Cc: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>; public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
18 April 2023
Got to it from another device – VPNs don’t like you…
So it’s a centralized database of image metadata…Seems like the
wrong approach on a number of levels.
1 – Centralization has a lot of legal and practical concerns,
especially outside the US
2 – I don’t see how the data is useful when it is not connected in
any way (that I can tell) to the actual asset.  The goal should be,
instead, to get the data embedded into the assets – using modern
approaches such as XMP and the new IPTC schemas for accessibility
(https://iptc.org/news/iptc-announces-new-properties-in-photo-metadata-to-make-images-more-accessible/)
3 – It’s not clear how the data is to actually be used.  Are
people expected to write their own applications, to the AirTable API,
to search/retrieve the data?  At that times?  Are there any
restrictions to doing so – geography, source domains, costs, etc??
That’s just my initial thoughts after a few minutes reading the
document.
Leonard
From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com<mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com>>
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 2:30 PM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Cc: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>, public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>
<public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
18 April 2023
EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.
It is reachable.
Others are reaching it.
Maybe you have a security restriction?
Please contact me directly if you need help.
Thanks
Ken
Ken Jones
Director
Circular Software Limited
circularsoftware.com<http://circularsoftware.com/> [2]
ken@circularsoftware.com<mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com>
+44 (0)7974 458642
@CircularKen [3]
linkedin.com/in/kenjones<http://linkedin.com/in/kenjones> [4]

On 14 Apr 2023, at 19:22, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
wrote:

Site not reachable ☹
https://circular.software/SIDD

From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com<mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com>>
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 2:20 PM
To: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>, public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>
<public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
18 April 2023
EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.
<s_9D8635F5D892873C326C3F890419B7100B6F9874492714A21129B0167BD6A57A_1677828918862_SIDD_Description_Editor.png>

Simple Image Descriptions Database [1]
circular.software [1]
Here’s what we have so far…
Thanks
Ken
Ken Jones
Director
Circular Software Limited
circularsoftware.com<http://circularsoftware.com/> [2]
ken@circularsoftware.com<mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com>
+44 (0)7974 458642
@CircularKen [3]
linkedin.com/in/kenjones<http://linkedin.com/in/kenjones> [4]

On 14 Apr 2023, at 18:40, Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>
wrote:

We’ll reschedule that portion of the meeting, but continue with
the rest. In the meantime are there any materials we can review?
-Wendy
From: Ken Jones <ken@circularsoftware.com<mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com>>
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM
To: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>, public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>
<public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
18 April 2023
[EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.
Hi Wendy
It is London Book Fair next week so I will be there at the
Accessibility: Charting the Waters [5] seminar on the 18th.
Can I suggest we reschedule this please?
Thanks
Ken
Let’s meet up at London Book Fair 2023! [6]
Ken Jones
Director
Circular Software Limited
circularsoftware.com<http://circularsoftware.com/> [2]
ken@circularsoftware.com<mailto:ken@circularsoftware.com>
+44 (0)7974 458642
@CircularKen [3]
linkedin.com/in/kenjones<http://linkedin.com/in/kenjones> [4]
On 14 Apr 2023, at 17:45, Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>
wrote:
@Ken Jones – are there any resources you can provide?
From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 12:37 PM
To: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>, public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>
<public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda -
18 April 2023
[EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.
Is there any pre-read on this “SIDD” thing?
Leonard
From: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>
Date: Friday, April 14, 2023 at 12:30 PM
To: public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> <public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: [FXLA11Y] Fixed Layout Accessibility Taskforce Agenda - 18
April 2023
EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.
Hi all,
The FXL Accessibility Taskforce will be meeting Tuesday, April 18th
at 9AM Boston time, or 13 UTC.
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=FXL+Accessibility+Meeting+&iso=20230418T09&p1=250&ah=1


[7]
Agenda:
* Reading order, Page Regions, introducing ‘SIDD’ (the Simple
Image Descriptions Database) – Ken Jones
* Accessible FXL Research Project from LIA [1]
* What to do with the TF Work
[1]
https://www.fondazionelia.org/en/research-and-development/accessible-fixed-layout-epubs-a-new-research-project-by-fondazione-lia/


[8]
Meeting information can be found here:
https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8e109b5f-af50-43e9-ae99-9afff77b58bb/20230418T090000


[9]
See you all Tuesday,
Wendy
Links:
------
[1] https://circular.software/SIDD

[2] https://www.circularsoftware.com/

[3] https://twitter.com/CircularKen

[4] http://linkedin.com/in/kenjones

[5] https://www.publishers.org.uk/events/accessibility-charting-the-waters-at-london-book-fair/

[6] https://calendly.com/circularken/lbf

[7] https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=FXL+Accessibility+Meeting+&amp;iso=20230418T09&amp;p1=250&amp;ah=1<https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=FXL+Accessibility+Meeting+&iso=20230418T09&p1=250&ah=1>
[8] https://www.fondazionelia.org/en/research-and-development/accessible-fixed-layout-epubs-a-new-research-project-by-fondazione-lia/

[9] https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/8e109b5f-af50-43e9-ae99-9afff77b58bb/20230418T090000