Re: Looking for some clarification

Hi Matt,

No need to apologize, I'm a bit of a baptism by fire kind of guy anyway,
and I've never shied away from the "tough stuff". As noted, I'm actually
thrilled that I got so much useful feedback in this thread, so it's all
good.

JF

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 3:03 PM Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com> wrote:

> And this issue sadly always boils down to a business one rather than a
> technical – getting the distribution gatekeepers who impose this rule to
> recognize that warnings are not an inherently bad thing, but that’s proven
> no easy task. We can’t operate the way we do now forever, for sure.
>
>
>
> Sorry you had to run into this particular wall so early in your time in
> the group, but consider it your baptism by fire into the group… ;)
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
> *Sent:* July 30, 2021 1:01 PM
> *To:* Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>; John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>; W3C EPUB 3
> Working Group <public-epub-wg@w3.org>; Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>;
> Dan Lazin <dlazin@google.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Looking for some clarification
>
>
>
> Thanks Matt, and I totally understand and get it.
>
>
>
> Over time you'll come to learn that I've embraced a number of W3C
> 'truisms' and one is "Be specific in what you ask for, and generous in what
> you accept" - and somehow that feels about right here :-)
>
> If nothing else, I've learned a fair bit about EPUB with this thread, so
> thanks to all for your generosity in that!
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 11:02 AM Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Ivan’s already made the most salient points, so the only thing I have to
> add is that not invalidating existing content is the highest priority
> requirement of our charter: “The primary goal of EPUB 3.X is to remain
> compatible with existing content. Any existing valid EPUB 3.2 should remain
> valid under EPUB 3.X, unless it relies on features discovered to have
> serious issues (such as a security bug).”
>
>
>
> Yes, warnings aren’t errors, and warnings aren’t even technically a
> violation of a specification, but when the rubber hits the road in the real
> world, specification nuances like this are the lesser concern. It's a real
> cost to publishers to have to remediate their publications to republish
> them, so we have a high bar for justifying any new issue that they must
> fix. General improvements like we’re discussing for landmarks, don’t rise
> to that bar.
>
>
>
> I’m sure everyone here has at least one pet peeve they’d love to drop or
> do over, but we’re stuck in a kind of holding pattern until an EPUB 4 rolls
> around to fix the things that already have authoring uptake.
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> *From:* Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
> *Sent:* July 30, 2021 11:03 AM
> *To:* John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
> *Cc:* Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>; W3C EPUB 3 Working Group <
> public-epub-wg@w3.org>; Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>; Dan Lazin <
> dlazin@google.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Looking for some clarification
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 30 Jul 2021, at 15:43, John Foliot <john@foliot.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Matt
>
>
>
> > The problem is this probably invalidates every existing EPUB
>
>
>
> Hmmm... that's not how I understand SHOULD w.r.t RFC 2119
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2119>:
>
>
>
> *SHOULD **- This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
> may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular
> item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed
> before choosing a different course.*
>
> Legacy content that does not meet this requirement would be "exempt" using
> the 'valid reason' justification (it's why I suggested SHOULD in the first
> place) - i.e. the document was published prior to the addition of the
> specification requirement, so it is 'grandfathered' (the valid reason), yet
> it also sets expectations going forward.
>
>
>
> John, this is not an RFC issue, but of an industry practice. This
> community is fairly strict in validating the content they produce (as
> opposed to an average Web site creation) and that is a good thing. It
> relies on epubcheck[1] which is, afaik, known by pretty much all serious
> publishers. And the policy of epubcheck is to issue a warning for the
> violation of SHOULD statements.
>
>
>
> What happens is that a publisher submits an EPUB publication to a company
> getting the epub instance to the market, that company runs epubcheck, and
> may to decide to reject any publication which has even a warning and of
> course an error (I am probably oversimplifying). Overall, this is a good
> thing I believe, but the price we have to pay is to be very careful with
> SHOULD statements…
>
>
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/publishing/epubcheck/
>
>
>
> (Before you ask: epubcheck is not a W3C project!)
>
>
>
>
>
> Additionally, large publishers (with legacy systems or simply time and
> volume constraints) have the ability to adopt this over time: again the
> 'valid reason' justification is the legacy nature of the requirement.
> (Conceptually, it's sort of like a reverse 'deprecation
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecation>' :-) )
>
> At any rate, it is but a suggestion from the new guy: I will defer to the
> long-time experts in the group.
>
>
>
> Sorry John, you are not new any more :-)
>
>
>
> Ivan
>
>
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:13 AM Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I asked about potentially "extracting" that list from the actual spec,
> but instead including it by reference, and looking to host the normative
> *Definitions* external to the spec, but nonetheless in a normative TR space
> at the W3C.
>
>
>
> That’s the way it works right now. The official structure vocab is
> currently at https://idpf.github.io/epub-vocabs/structure/, not in the
> epub 3.2 specification, so that it could be maintained as a registry not
> bound to revision cycles.
>
>
>
> We also tried defining definitions outside the specification while
> retaining usage requirements inside, specifically for fixed layouts. See
> the fixed layout vocabulary
> <https://idpf.github.io/epub-vocabs/rendition/> versus the fixed layout
> package definitions
> <http://idpf.org/epub/31/spec/epub-packages.html#sec-package-metadata-rendering>
> .
>
>
>
> Part of overhauling the specifications for this revision was to merge all
> the vocabularies back into the authoring specification to avoid the problem
> of having information scattered across a lot of documents. That said, I’m
> still not convinced the SSV belongs in the specification; it was the last
> one we integrated. I also don’t believe we had the option of a registry
> when the revision began, as the details for their creation and maintenance
> had not been fully worked out. It’s something to consider, if perhaps not
> for every vocabulary we have.
>
> > EPUB documents SHOULD include, as a minimum, the following landmarks:
> frontmatter, bodymatter, backmatter, any of loi, lot, lov, loa, etc
> when/where applicable
>
> The problem is this probably invalidates every existing EPUB, which we
> can’t do. It’s an old and annoying problem we face in publishing, but many
> vendors won’t accept files with warnings, so we’re handcuffed in what we
> can recommend or require when it’s clear we’d be making a backwards
> incompatibility. I don’t see how we’ll be able to offer more than advice on
> what to use given that restraint.
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
> *Sent:* July 30, 2021 9:30 AM
> *To:* Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
> *Cc:* Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>; W3C EPUB 3 Working Group <
> public-epub-wg@w3.org>; Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>; John Foliot
> <john@foliot.ca>; Dan Lazin <dlazin@google.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Looking for some clarification
>
>
>
> Hello All,
>
>
>
> First, thanks to all who've contributed to this, I have a much clearer
> understanding of at least this part of the EPUB 3.x spec. I have a whole
> bunch of thoughts here, based on the discussion, but the most significant
> (I think) is clustered around those epub:type definitions, and usage in
> EPUB publications.
>
>
>
> *Normative versus Non-Normative Term Definitions* - FWIW, think there is
> a distinction between normative *definitions* versus normative *usage
> requirements*. In other words, from what I can tell, there is no harm (that
> I can see) and conversely a real advantage to 'hardening' the
> definitions of the listed terms, *without* at the same time specifically
> mandating their use in EPUB publications. In one of my earlier posts, I
> asked about potentially "extracting" that list from the actual spec, but
> instead including it by reference, and looking to host the normative
> *Definitions* external to the spec, but nonetheless in a normative TR space
> at the W3C.
>
>
> Some back-story here may be helpful for some: there are an increasing
> number of instances at the W3C where specs are sharing or referencing
> vocabularies/definitions and/or similar types of content. The WCAG WG (now
> AG WG) stumbled across this issue when updating to WCAG 2.1, where we
> introduced a new SC (1.3.5
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#identify-input-purpose> Purpose of Input),
> which essentially leveraged an existing HTML5 attribute (@autocomplete) and
> it's normative 'taxonomy' of attribute values and definitions. However,
> that original taxonomy is/was hosted in the HTML5 specification, which we
> all know is now "Living" in WHAT WG space, and there was a concern that
> *if* the WHAT WG modified or changed that taxonomy, it would have a
> knock-on (but negative) effect on *OUR* spec. And so the solution was to
> duplicate that list in WCAG 2.1 (See Section 7: Input Purposes for User
> Interface Components <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#input-purposes>).
> This solved the larger issue at the time, but also bloated our spec
> somewhat, and also introduced a small level of 'brittleness' - a level
> deemed 'acceptable', but brittle nonetheless.
>
> However, during that time, it lead us (me) to investigate the potential of
> a 'normative' registry where groups could host 'fragments' of common items,
> like that taxonomy; it turned out that not only had the idea been batted
> around before, but that multiple WGs at the W3C had a similar need, and so
> AFAIK, today there is a serious movement to actually create such a
> Registry <https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/335>.
>
>
>
> And so, returning to the topic at hand, I will ask directly whether moving
> those terms and definitions into such a Registry would be of any value? As
> I suggested, having normative definitions of all of those terms is,
> overall, a net win in my books, yet at the same time, the EPUB spec can
> note that usage is not mandated (BUT, if you choose to use a term, choose
> the right one that aligns to the normative definition).
>
>
>
> > We generally have an issue at W3C on how we would define testing and
> implementation for vocabulary terms (I explicitly cc Dan here, who is our
> testing champion…). The generally accepted approach is that for vocabulary
> items the term "implementation" is a misnomer and it should be considered
> to be an alias to the term "usage" for our CR process.
>
>
>
> I will also suggest that seeking to use a Registry here may be a way
> around Ivan's noted concern regarding "implementation" versus "usage", as I
> think a registry such as being proposed would not have that strict
> implementation need.
>
>
>
> > Personally, I see the most value in the landmarks nav if it is limited
> to major reference sections, like lists of tables/examples/illustrations,
> indexes, bibliographies, and glossaries, plus the major document partitions
> (front, body and back matter). Even if we can’t limit it to those, some
> guidance in that direction would improve understanding.
>
>
>
> Because (thankfully) the EPUB 3.3 Rec includes a direct reference to RFC
> 2119, perhaps the way forward would be to leverage SHOULD and MAY here.
> That way the section could more clearly define some expectations (SHOULDs),
> without specifically mandating usage anywhere. In a hand-wavey,
> not-too-much-thought suggestion, perhaps something like:
>
>    - EPUB documents MUST include a set of (epub:type) landmarks
>    - EPUB documents SHOULD include, as a minimum, the following
>    landmarks: frontmatter, bodymatter, backmatter, any of loi, lot, lov, loa,
>    etc when/where applicable
>    - EPUB documents MAY include any of the other (normatively defined)
>    landmarks
>    - EPUB documents MUST NOT introduce new landmark values not included
>    in the normative list of definitions
>    - When associated with an internal link, EPUB landmark link text
>    SHOULD be written to be consumed by users, in the native language of the
>    associated document.
>    (?? This is a first-pass attempt to ensure that links are not to
>    "backmatter', but rather something closer to "Appendix". Perhaps also
>    reference the following:
>    https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#clear-language-written-or-audio-user-story,
>    and specifically the following: "I need to understand the meaning of the
>    text. I do not want unexplained, implied or ambiguous information...")
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> > ...the question on how we would handle all the metadata vocabularies in
> the spec
>
>
>
> Would the use of a Registry be a way forward there Ivan?
>
>
>
> > The edupub terms might also fall into the same category, except having
> the terms in the SSV allows their use outside of edupub-specific
> publications. I wouldn’t be surprised to find them in use.
>
>
>
> ...also makes the case for extracting the terms and definitions to a
> common normative registry IMHO.
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 6:50 AM Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On 30 Jul 2021, at 12:39, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > However: would all SSV terms pass such a requirement?
>
>
>
> Maybe not all, but probably more than you think if we’re going by use in
> content.
>
>
>
> I am known to be pessimistic :-) But I am happy to be proven wrong.
>
>
>
> Landmarks are a niche use of the vocabulary, for sure, but use in content
> (esp. in publisher workflows) is not. I can’t speak to who’s using what
> right now, but in the past Hachette, Pearson and others were making
> extensive use of the vocabulary.
>
>
>
> Great. I would think it is easy to get this information for documentations.
>
>
>
>
>
> But what exactly would be the difference between a “normative” term and an
> “informative” one? They’re not going to “do” anything in the vast majority
> of cases, anyway, so what would we be trying to signal to authors by adding
> labels?
>
>
>
> In practice… not much, you are right. In this case it would be nothing
> more than some sort of a quality stamp, proving that there is a consensus
> behind that specific term (or not).
>
>
>
> Do informative ones generate warnings, or what makes them different?
>
>
>
>
>
> RS-s may decide to warn for, or simply ignore, non standard terms. But
> that is out of our hands.
>
>
>
> If the idea is we deprecate the ones we can’t find support for, how can we
> be sure we’ve captured the complete picture of use given how many more
> authors/publishers there are than reading systems? RS feature checking is
> far less complicated.
>
>
>
> It’d also be problematic to call the whole vocabulary informative when
> it’s a normative default of the epub:type attribute, which is normatively
> required in places like the navigation document. It’d create a cascading
> failure of informativeness!
>
>
>
> It is probably not a good idea to declare the whole thing informative. But
> maybe we have to divide the vocabulary into standard and non-standard ones;
> I am sure there are ones that would surely pass the bar for normativeness.
>
>
>
> It would be good to gather this information asap, using the relationships
> WG members have with publishers.
>
>
>
> Ivan
>
>
>
>
>
> As to the other vocabularies, I recall we did a review of their properties
> back in 3.1, which is why a number of them, like meta-auth and the various
> link metadata record types, are now deprecated. Their use is a bit more
> assured.
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> *From:* Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
> *Sent:* July 30, 2021 4:52 AM
> *To:* W3C EPUB 3 Working Group <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
> *Cc:* Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>; Matt Garrish <
> matt.garrish@gmail.com>; John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>; Dan Lazin <
> dlazin@google.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Looking for some clarification
>
>
>
> (First of all, thanks to John for starting this thread. Never ever
> apologize for asking relevant questions!)
>
>
>
> Editorial issues put aside, Matt is right that current spec describes the
> SSV as normative. However, is this realistic in terms of the W3C process?
>
>
>
> We generally have an issue at W3C on how we would define testing and
> implementation for vocabulary terms (I explicitly cc Dan here, who is our
> testing champion…). The generally accepted approach is that for vocabulary
> items the term "implementation" is a a misnomer and it should be considered
> to be an alias to the term "usage" for our CR process. Indeed, there is no
> RS behavioral requirement for any of the SSV entries, so traditional
> requirements on implementations would not apply. Instead we may, for
> example, define "usage" of a specific vocabulary term, for our CR process,
> that there are at least two publishers out there who use these terms in
> production (hoping that at least some reading systems do something sensible
> with it). Such, or similar, ways for "testing" (per W3C process) for
> vocabularies was used in other specifications in the past.
>
>
>
> However: would all SSV terms pass such a requirement? All the answers on
> John's mail suggest that the answer would be no (and Tzviya made this point
> explicitly), because many terms have been introduced to the spec as part of
> an aspiration for something. Ie, we may be creating a problem for
> ourselves. Shouldn't we mark the SSV vocabulary as non-normative overall
> with, possibly, explicitly mark a few terms as normative because we know
> they are accepted by the community (e.g., landmarks)? Note that if we keep
> all the terms as normative and then we fail on the CR tests, the usual
> expectation would be to remove them altogether, which we do not want (I
> presume).
>
>
>
> This raises (again?) the question on how we would handle all the metadata
> vocabularies in the spec (Matt, please, do not kill me for raising this
> problem again…)?
>
>
>
> I realize that, eventually, the right place to discuss this will be a
> github issue. But a preliminary discussion on this thread may not harm (and
> our fearless chairs may want to put it on our next WG call's agenda…)
>
>
>
> Ivan
>
>
>
> On 29 Jul 2021, at 20:30, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > rereading this and I now understand that only section D.8.1 is
> non-normative … it was a nuance that I missed on first read
>
>
>
> Ah, the subsection labels again! We wrote out some of these sections
> earlier this revision in the package vocabularies to avoid a similar kind
> of issue, as I recall.
>
>
>
> We could probably do the same here and merge the paragraphs under the
> Structural Semantics heading to get rid of that subsection (and label), as
> all the other “About this vocabulary” sections are now gone. I’ll open an
> issue to fix this.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
> *Sent:* July 29, 2021 2:18 PM
> *To:* Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>; W3C EPUB 3 Working Group <
> public-epub-wg@w3.org>; Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>; Ivan Herman
> <ivan@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Looking for some clarification
>
>
>
> Matt and Tzviya,
>
>
>
> Thank you, this is most helpful. Matt, to your last question, I apologize
> in that I saw this:
>
> D.8 Structural Semantics Vocabulary
> D.8.1 About this Vocabulary
>
> *This section is non-normative.*
>
> ...and got ahead of myself - rereading this and I now understand that only
> section D.8.1 is non-normative; D.8.2 through D.8.19 are not tagged as
> non-normative (so, ergo, normative), but it was a nuance that I missed on
> first read. As simply a suggestion, perhaps moving that around a bit may
> help (but not a hill to die on):
>
> D.8 Structural Semantics Vocabulary
> Note: Section D.8.1 is non-normative, all other sections are normative.
>
> D.8.1 About this Vocabulary
> (...just a thought: if I missed it, it's possible others might as well...)
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:39 PM Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> > Looking specifically at usage in <nav epub:type="landmarks">, is there a *minimum
> set* or collection of landmark-values expected in a publication?
>
>
>
> No. We’ve looked at this issue in the past, but the landmarks are for
> reading system use and there’s no requirement that reading systems
> implement any functionality based on landmarks. I believe the only
> behaviour that’s been documented as having some uptake is including a link
> with epub:type=bodymatter so that reading systems can automatically skip
> the front matter when opening a publication. But that’s not universal and
> not something we’d want to enforce now.
>
>
>
> > I am *presuming* that the Partition value (actually, any epub:type's
> value) should also use a "Human Readable" label (accessible name),
>
>
>
> It would be helpful if the links were exposed to users, yes, but the
> landmarks links are the more central part. The original idea was that the
> reading system could use these links to implement its UI (e.g., have a
> dedicated button to open a glossary or index), so the text of the links
> would most likely be discarded to provide a consistent interface. Listing
> all kinds of general content destinations in the landmarks for users is
> largely redundant with the table of contents.
>
>
>
> > *Document Partitions* vs. *Document Sections and Components*, does one
> category have stronger or more important semantics in practical usage?
>
>
>
> Front, body and back matter are conceptual divisions of a publication that
> overarch the content. Front matter in most English texts, for example, is
> demarked by roman numerals and contains title pages, tables of contents,
> dedications, forwards, etc.
>
>
>
> You don’t necessarily have to pick only one semantic, in other words, as
> this isn’t the role attribute where only one is recognized. All of the
> listed semantics are applicable. This is also because the semantics (and
> epub:type) were designed first for publishers wanting to use the semantics
> in internal workflows.
>
>
>
> They then took on a life of their own and have been used (and abused) in a
> variety of ways for different purposes in EPUB. Placing them on links in
> the landmarks is a useful hack, for example, but what does it mean that a
> link is the front matter and/or a forward? That the semantics describe what
> is at the end of the link is a creation that only exists for the landmarks,
> I believe.
>
>
>
> Structuring the list of landmarks probably does nothing but further
> complex an underutilized feature of EPUB. You’re starting to turn it back
> into a table of contents. You could put two semantics on a single item if
> it makes sense (e.g., a forward is also your first piece of front matter),
> but otherwise I’d keep the list flat. I’m kind of surprised the restriction
> to a flat list of entries, as we have for the page list, isn’t also defined
> for the landmarks.
>
>
>
> > why is the Structural Semantics Vocabulary non-normative in the
> Recommendation?
>
>
>
> The appendixes are normative unless marked otherwise and I don’t see a
> non-normative label on the vocabulary. Where are you seeing it is
> informative?
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
> *Sent:* July 29, 2021 12:45 PM
> *To:* W3C EPUB 3 Working Group <public-epub-wg@w3.org>; Avneesh Singh <
> avneesh.sg@gmail.com>; Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Looking for some clarification
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> As I continue to digest the current EPUB 3.3 Rec, I'd like to ask some
> specific questions (if I may) regarding *Structural Semantics Vocabulary*
> *.
>
> Specifically, I am looking to understand the
> relationship/similarities/differences between Document Partitions
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/#partitions> and Document Sections and
> Components <https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/#sections>, as they appear (to
> me) to be very similar in function. (But, for example, would/could a
> Section or Component be a child of a Partition? Or are they hierarchically
> equal? )
>
>    - Looking specifically at usage in <nav epub:type="landmarks">, is
>    there a *minimum set* or collection of landmark-values expected in a
>    publication?
>
>
>    - if yes, what are they?
>       - if no, should there be? (why/why not?)
>
>
>    - Additionally, from an accessibility perspective, while the Rec is
>    currently silent on this specific scenario, based on the following supplied code
>    example <https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/#example-33> I am *presuming*
>    that the Partition value (actually, any epub:type's value) should also use
>    a "Human Readable" label (accessible name), as seen here with the epub:type
>    of *bodymatter*, where the label is *Start of Content*:
>
> <*nav* epub:type="landmarks">
>
>     <*h2*>Guide</*h2*>
>
>     <*ol*>
>
>         <*li*><*a* epub:type="toc" href="#toc">Table of Contents</*a*></
> *li*>
>
>         <*li*><*a* epub:type="loi" href="content.html#loi">List of
> Illustrations</*a*></*li*>
>
>         <*li*><*a* epub:type="bodymatter" href="content.html#bodymatter">Start
> of Content</*a*></*li*>
>
>     </*ol*>
>
> </*nav*>
>
>
>
> I ask this, because currently I am seeing (in sample books I am reviewing)
> that in many instances the epub:type value is being echoed as the
> human-readable label as well (i.e. *<a epub:type="Frontmatter"
> href="...">Frontmatter</a>*), which my gut is cringing at, as being less
> than useful for some users with different forms of cognitive disability.
> (It's a bit of a stretch to be sure, but WCAG SC 3.1.3 Unusual Words
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#unusual-words> (Level AAA) states: *A
> mechanism is available for identifying specific definitions of words or
> phrases used in an unusual or restricted way, including idioms and jargon.
> - *and to *my* mind at least, *Frontmatter *is fairly "jargony
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-jargon>" on the surface - it's clearly
> not a common term in regular public usage AFAIK. Ditto "backmatter".)
> (@Avneesh?)
>
>
>    - Returning to  *Document Partitions* vs. *Document Sections and
>    Components*, does one category have stronger or more important
>    semantics in practical usage? i.e. both *Frontmatter *and *Forward *feel
>    very similar (synonymous?) to each other conceptually - If I had to choose
>    just one, which would/should I choose? (and why?) Or, as I asked
>    previously, could I/would I seek to do something like this?
>
> <*nav* epub:type="landmarks">
>
>     <*h2*>Guide</*h2*>
>
>     <*ol*>
>
>         <*li*><*a* epub:type="Frontmatter" href="content.html#frontmatter"
> >Frontmatter</*a*> (* ya, yech)
>
>             <ol>
>
>                 <li><a epub:type="Forward"
> href="content.html#forward">Forward</a></li>
>
>                 <li><a epub:type="Preface"
> href="content.html#preface">Preface</a></li>
>
>             </ol>
>
>         </*li*>
>
>         <*li*><*a* epub:type="loi" href="content.html#loi">List of
> Illustrations</*a*></*li*>
>
>         <*li*><*a* epub:type="bodymatter" href="content.html#bodymatter">Start
> of Content</*a*></*li*>
>
>     </*ol*>
>
> </*nav*>
>
> (Or am I overthinking this?)
>
> Thanks in advance for any insights you can provide me.
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> (* At the risk of asking too many questions, why is the Structural
> Semantics Vocabulary non-normative in the Recommendation? It appears to be
> furnishing specific definitions to multiple value terms. As a standards
> wonk, it strikes me that those definitions would probably want to be
> normative - or, again, am I missing something here? @Ivan - has there been
> any discussion of moving those definitions into the proposed W3C Registry
> <https://github.com/w3c/w3process/pull/335>?)
>
> --
>
> *John Foliot* | Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility
>
> "I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." -
> Pascal "links go places, buttons do things"
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Foliot* | Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility
>
> "I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." -
> Pascal "links go places, buttons do things"
>
>
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
> ORCID ID: https://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
>
>
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
> ORCID ID: https://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Foliot* | Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility
>
> "I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." -
> Pascal "links go places, buttons do things"
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Foliot* | Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility
>
> "I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." -
> Pascal "links go places, buttons do things"
>
>
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
> ORCID ID: https://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Foliot* | Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility
>
> "I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." -
> Pascal "links go places, buttons do things"
>


-- 
*John Foliot* | Senior Industry Specialist, Digital Accessibility

"I made this so long because I did not have time to make it shorter." -
Pascal "links go places, buttons do things"