Re: EOCred: Addressing requirements from use cases

Would an acceptable justification for putting EducationalOccupationalCredential under Creative Work be the fact that there simply isn’t a better home? For what it’s worth, just looking through the Schema.org hierarchy, nothing popped out as a viable alternative. Maybe Intangible?

Bob

> On Jan 10, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com> wrote:
> 
> Stuart, I wasn’t saying that EducationalOccupationalCredential should not be a subtype of CreativeWork.  I was just highlighting that it is a proposal we can expect to have to justify to the rest of the Schema.org community who would probably have a much narrower understanding of what a EducationalOccupationalCredential is.  
> 
> As to your questions, about the justifications for other subtypes.  Firstly, I would say that consensus in the community has evolved over time, as has the significant number of CreativeWork subtypes (it’s looking a bit messy in that area of the type hierarchy).  Personally I would suggest that all the Types you list are the outcome of individual, or a series of, creative actions.
> 
> ~Richard.
> 
> Richard Wallis
> Founder, Data Liberate
> http://dataliberate.com <http://dataliberate.com/>
> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis>
> Twitter: @rjw
> 
> On 9 January 2018 at 22:41, Stuart Sutton <stuartasutton@gmail.com <mailto:stuartasutton@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 8:10 AM, Richard Wallis <richard.wallis@dataliberate.com <mailto:richard.wallis@dataliberate.com>> wrote:
> In principle creating an EducationalOccupationalCredential type and making it a subtype of CreativeWork make sense to me.  This is a good start. However the following practical thoughts come to mind:
> Just looking at the name EducationalOccupationalCredential makes me think that it should have a basic super-type of Credential that is not tied to the Educational / Occupational domains.  I can already anticipate the questions about marking up some form of general qualification, measure of achievement, recognised membership level, or attendance, that the developer does not consider either educational or occupational.
> 
> In practice “properties like educationalAlignment, audience, offers, provider, hasPart, datePublished, dateModified, expires, creator (and possibly others) will be useful in describing EducationalOccupationalCredentials.” Is not sufficient reason on its own for minting yet another subtype of CreativeWork.  Do we believe such a thing is a type of Creative Work?
> Richard, I think that if Course can be a CreativeWork, a case can be made for EducationalOccupationalCredential being one.  They are undeniably 'works' that require at least a 'modicum of creativity'. 
> 
> If we look at the class extension (subtypes) of CreativeWork <http://schema.org/CreativeWork>, there are no apparent controlling attributes that I can see to guide what should be in (or out). So, arguments that EducationalOccupationalCredential "is" or "isn't" are probably equally rudderless. But, if the following subtypes passed muster as CreativeWorks, I wish someone would fill me in on the common characteristics of the class that made it possible:
> Comment
> Question
> Menu
> Message
> Dataset
> 
> I had a recent proposal for a new subtype of CreativeWork, using similar justification, knocked back in the Schema.org Github in this way: 
> “ No, we really can’t make TouristTrip a subclass of CreativeWork … that
> would be way way too much of a hack.
> Lets add more domain/ranges to the relevant properties.”
> 
> I am not saying we would get the same response but we need good justification for such a proposal.
> 
> ~Richard.
> 
> Richard Wallis
> Founder, Data Liberate
> http://dataliberate.com <http://dataliberate.com/>
> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardwallis>
> Twitter: @rjw
> 
> On 9 January 2018 at 10:15, Bob Dolan <bob@diverselearnersconsulting.com <mailto:bob@diverselearnersconsulting.com>> wrote:
> Listing the requirements for each use case is very helpful. Using schema.org/CreativeWork <http://schema.org/CreativeWork> makes sense to me. 
> 
> Bob
> Bob Dolan, Ph.D. | Principal
> bob@diverselearnersconsulting.com <mailto:bob@diverselearnersconsulting.com>
> www.diverselearnersconsulting.com <http://www.diverselearnersconsulting.com/>
> 413.367.6199 <tel:(413)%20367-6199>
>  <http://www.diverselearnersconsulting.com/>
> 
>> On Jan 9, 2018, at 4:21 AM, Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Ryan, yes hooking into an existing schema.org <http://schema.org/> type can minimize the number of new properties that are required. Don't worry about Course having an educationalCredentialAwarded property being a distraction: I think that we will be connecting to that when we get further down the list of use cases.
>> 
>> Phil
>> 
>> On 08/01/18 20:50, Ryan Price wrote:
>>> I think this makes a lot of sense, to extend CreativeWork.
>>> 
>>> For example, when CreativeWork is extended to Course, you only add 4 properties:
>>> https://schema.org/Course <https://schema.org/Course>
>>> 
>>> courseCode
>>> coursePrerequisites
>>> educationalCredentialAwarded (oops, maybe I picked a bad example, since this mentions Credential. Don’t get distracted by this property!)
>>> hasCourseInstance
>>> 
>>> ++
>>> 
>>> Ryan Price
>>> Senior Engineer
>>> 
>>> Palantir.net <http://palantir.net/>
>>> (773) 645-4100 <tel:%28773%29%20645-4100>
>>> price@palantir.net <mailto:price@palantir.net>
>>> 
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>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2018, at 6:34 AM, Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk <mailto:phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hello all,
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you for your input prioritising the use cases for Educational and Occupational Credentials. I have arranged to outline use cases <https://www.w3.org/community/eocred-schema/wiki/Use_Cases> to reflect these priorities.
>>>> 
>>>> I have also indicated what I think is required in order to meet these use cases. Please take a look and let me know if I have missed anything.
>>>> I propose we work through these requirements, trying to meet as many of them as possible with existing schema.org <http://schema.org/> terms, and defining new terms where required.
>>>> 
>>>> Picking two requirements from near the top of the list, we need to 
>>>> 1. be able to identify that an object is a educational / occupational credential 
>>>> 2. be able to identify name of an educational / occupational credential object 
>>>> I propose that we create a new schema.org <http://schema.org/> class / type of thing, an EducationalOccupationalCredential 
>>>> definition: An educational or occupational credential. A diploma, academic degree, certification, qualification, badge, etc., that may be awarded to a person or other entity that meets the requirements defined by the credentialer.
>>>> This will inherit the URL and name properties from schema.org/Thing <http://schema.org/Thing> thus meeting the requirements above.
>>>> 
>>>> Furthermore, I think that it is logical and will allow reuse of several properties if we consider the EducationalOccupationalCredential to be a subtype of schema.org/CreativeWork <http://schema.org/CreativeWork>. I think properties like educationalAlignment, audience, offers, provider, hasPart, datePublished, dateModified, expires, creator (and possibly others) will be useful in describing EducationalOccupationalCredentials.
>>>> Any comments?
>>>> 
>>>> Phil.
>>>> 
>>>> [outline use cases] https://www.w3.org/community/eocred-schema/wiki/Use_Cases <https://www.w3.org/community/eocred-schema/wiki/Use_Cases>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>
>>>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk/>: technology to enhance learning; information systems for education.
>>>> CETIS LLP: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in education technology.
>>>> 
>>>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company, number SC569282.
>>>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in England number OC399090
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>
>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk/>: technology to enhance learning; information systems for education.
>> CETIS LLP: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in education technology.
>> 
>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company, number SC569282.
>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in England number OC399090
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Stuart A. Sutton, Metadata Consultant
> Associate Professor Emeritus, University of Washington 
>    Information School
> Email: stuartasutton@gmail.com <mailto:stuartasutton@gmail.com>
> Skype: sasutton
> 
> 
>