Re: status of editing

Whattime zones are those interested in partipating in? I am available at
any time.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Grisha Lyukshin <glyuk@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> I am fine with February 14th.
>
>
> Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* johanneswilm@gmail.com <johanneswilm@gmail.com> on behalf of
> Johannes Wilm <johannes@fiduswriter.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2017 1:07:24 PM
> *To:* Dave Tapuska
> *Cc:* Gary Kačmarčík (Кошмарчик); Grisha Lyukshin; Piotr Koszuliński;
> public-editing-tf@w3.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: status of editing
>
> Ok, same here. February sounds good. February 14th then? Or do we need a
> doodle?
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Dave Tapuska <dtapuska@chromium.org>
> wrote:
>
>> After Feb 13th generally works for me.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Gary Kačmarčík (Кошмарчик) <
>> garykac@google.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Feb (in general) works for me.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Grisha Lyukshin <glyuk@microsoft.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How about some time in February?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* johanneswilm@gmail.com <johanneswilm@gmail.com> on behalf of
>>>> Johannes Wilm <johannes@fiduswriter.org>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 3, 2017 4:02:02 PM
>>>> *To:* Piotr Koszuliński
>>>> *Cc:* public-editing-tf@w3.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: status of editing
>>>>
>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>
>>>> given the current situation, I think we should have a call within the
>>>> next next few weeks. How would the week between January 18 and 25 work for
>>>> others? If not then, do you have alternative suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Piotr Koszuliński <
>>>> p.koszulinski@cksource.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Johannes,
>>>>>
>>>>> > * The undo stack is global, which means it's broken for every editor
>>>>> we have been able to find on the net, including those managed by all the
>>>>> browser maker companies. It would be good if we could figure out how to
>>>>> replace the global undo stack for contenteditable with separate undo stacks
>>>>> for every contenteditable element (could be an optional setting if this
>>>>> works best for Safari, even though no existing editor uses the global
>>>>> setting) [3].
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a very good point that this is broken for everyone. I can
>>>>> understand Webkit's team rejecting the proposals to expose the undo
>>>>> manager because that would be impossible/hard to integrate with the OS or
>>>>> browser. But the truth is that the situation is totally broken already and
>>>>> currently every RTE I checked implements its own undo manager, which
>>>>> completely ignores what the browser tells it. It's also unacceptable for
>>>>> RTE authors to have a global undo stack (we've taught users that each
>>>>> editor handles undo separately [1]). Finally, I don't understand how the
>>>>> browser's undo stack is supposed to work with RTEs implementing custom data
>>>>> models and collaboration features. Ryosuke pointed out [2] that W3C
>>>>> "specifically worked with Google Docs team to ensure their undo worked with
>>>>> the API", but I don't understand how was that supposed to work. It'd be
>>>>> interested to see some PoC or discussions, because it may turn out that the
>>>>> proposed Undo Manager API would be acceptable.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It has been pointed out earlier that the Undo Manager API proposal was
>>>> too complex for various reasons, but that it it included a way to define
>>>> the scope of the undo and that this part could be used to make undo more
>>>> local. This may be a good idea, even if it's just a complex way to say that
>>>> global undo is never desired anywhere for richtext.
>>>>
>>>> I came to the same conclusion as you, and found that also Google, Apple
>>>> and Microsoft softwares are broken. It's almost not noticeable if one
>>>> doesn't know where to look, but just find two different places where there
>>>> is text input (for example the search bar and the email composing part in
>>>> Gmail). Write a little in one, then click into the second. Type a little
>>>> more. Now undo all of it. You'll notice that they're all broken, in all the
>>>> browsers and all the OSes. Either the undo/redo is deactivated when it
>>>> should be activated, or it doesn't undo when it should.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that JS editors really only want direct control voer enabling
>>>> and disabling the native undo buttons and listen to the beforeinput events
>>>> for both of them. But I understand that due to OS restarints, Safari cannot
>>>> do this. Instead they seem to argue that one could get a simple undo
>>>> manager where JS can manually add items and make the undo scope be local.
>>>> This seems to be almost as good, although it will likely create problems
>>>> for collaborate editors, when a change of user A mean that the last 7
>>>> changes of user B no longer have any meaning.
>>>>
>>>> The main point here is that we really need to get going with this. This
>>>> should be in the interest of all the involved organizations and companies,
>>>> as the undo/redo menus are broken for all of them, and have been for a very
>>>> long time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > * There is a large, opverlapping menu on iOS giving formatting
>>>>> options. This is problematic for two reasons: 1. It overlaps the texteditor
>>>>> 2.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with everything you wrote, but I'd like to add one thing here.
>>>>> It's a much broader topic, but we've been researching how we can show our
>>>>> own controls on Safari@iOS and it turns to be extremely hard when the
>>>>> on-screen keyboard is visible. As far as I understand, Safari implements
>>>>> some non-standard viewport mechanics which makes positioning things very
>>>>> hard (if not impossible). From what we've seen, it all works as you'd
>>>>> except in Chrome@Android.
>>>>>
>>>>> This means that not only the menu is overlapping with our controls and
>>>>> that we can't control it, but we also can't reliably display something on
>>>>> the screen when the keyboard is visible. So the situation is broken on 3
>>>>> levels.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe I saw a long description with images in a report written by a
>>>> CKEditor person some months ago. Do you have the link for this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> >  The issue with the non-available features in editors has
>>>>> apparently become worse with the "Touch Bar" on Macbook Pro. While Safari
>>>>> always had some editing options hidden in an obscure menu that don't seem
>>>>> to work in any of the existign editors, some of these formatting options
>>>>> are now more prominently placed, which means it will be more obvious when
>>>>> they don't work [5].
>>>>>
>>>>> This is really sad. We've been working to gain more control over the
>>>>> editing experience and suddenly a font color picker appears in the "Touch
>>>>> Bar". I can even understand bold, italic and lists which are what more than
>>>>> 90% RTEs enable (although, not all – see Twitter). But font color doesn't
>>>>> appear in any modern editor because it's a non-semantic styling option
>>>>> which, in most cases, content authors should not be able to use. Exposing
>>>>> features like font color picker in the touch bar moves us back to 00's [4].
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, I can see that there are 7 Billion people on this planet and with
>>>> so many different writing styles and needs, there is likely also a
>>>> community out there that happens to want these features. And having direct
>>>> access to some of the richtext editing features right on the keyboard
>>>> sounds pretty neat.
>>>>
>>>> But I must agree with Piotr that this isn't what the main editors
>>>> currently are interested in. I wonder: Has Apple considered whether to open
>>>> up these various formatting menus (on iOS and macOS) so that the JavaScript
>>>> editors can enter their own menu items in there and replace the existing
>>>> ones? It seems like this would allow both for you to keep your menus, while
>>>> alleviating some of the frustration these editor devs have had when dealing
>>>> with Apple products.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/150#issuecomment-249815640
>>>>> [2] https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/150#issuecomment-249775255
>>>>> [3] https://github.com/ckeditor/ckeditor5-design/issues/149
>>>>> [4] https://twitter.com/reinmarpl/status/815891250612174848
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>> Piotrek Koszuliński | CKEditor Lead Developer
>>>>> --
>>>>> CKSource – http://cksource.com | Follow CKSource on: Twitter
>>>>> <http://twitter.com/cksource> | Facebook
>>>>> <http://www.facebook.com/cksource> | Google+
>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+CKSource> | LinkedIn
>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/cksource>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Johannes Wilm
>>>> Fidus Writer
>>>> http://www.fiduswriter.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Johannes Wilm
> Fidus Writer
> http://www.fiduswriter.org
>



-- 
Johannes Wilm
Fidus Writer
http://www.fiduswriter.org