Re: status of editing

Feb (in general) works for me.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Grisha Lyukshin <glyuk@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> How about some time in February?
>
>
> Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* johanneswilm@gmail.com <johanneswilm@gmail.com> on behalf of
> Johannes Wilm <johannes@fiduswriter.org>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 3, 2017 4:02:02 PM
> *To:* Piotr Koszuliński
> *Cc:* public-editing-tf@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: status of editing
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> given the current situation, I think we should have a call within the next
> next few weeks. How would the week between January 18 and 25 work for
> others? If not then, do you have alternative suggestions?
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Piotr Koszuliński <
> p.koszulinski@cksource.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Johannes,
>>
>> > * The undo stack is global, which means it's broken for every editor we
>> have been able to find on the net, including those managed by all the
>> browser maker companies. It would be good if we could figure out how to
>> replace the global undo stack for contenteditable with separate undo stacks
>> for every contenteditable element (could be an optional setting if this
>> works best for Safari, even though no existing editor uses the global
>> setting) [3].
>>
>> It's a very good point that this is broken for everyone. I can understand
>> Webkit's team rejecting the proposals to expose the undo manager because
>> that would be impossible/hard to integrate with the OS or browser. But the
>> truth is that the situation is totally broken already and currently every
>> RTE I checked implements its own undo manager, which completely ignores
>> what the browser tells it. It's also unacceptable for RTE authors to have a
>> global undo stack (we've taught users that each editor handles undo
>> separately [1]). Finally, I don't understand how the browser's undo stack
>> is supposed to work with RTEs implementing custom data models and
>> collaboration features. Ryosuke pointed out [2] that W3C "specifically
>> worked with Google Docs team to ensure their undo worked with the API", but
>> I don't understand how was that supposed to work. It'd be interested to see
>> some PoC or discussions, because it may turn out that the proposed Undo
>> Manager API would be acceptable.
>>
>
> It has been pointed out earlier that the Undo Manager API proposal was too
> complex for various reasons, but that it it included a way to define the
> scope of the undo and that this part could be used to make undo more local.
> This may be a good idea, even if it's just a complex way to say that global
> undo is never desired anywhere for richtext.
>
> I came to the same conclusion as you, and found that also Google, Apple
> and Microsoft softwares are broken. It's almost not noticeable if one
> doesn't know where to look, but just find two different places where there
> is text input (for example the search bar and the email composing part in
> Gmail). Write a little in one, then click into the second. Type a little
> more. Now undo all of it. You'll notice that they're all broken, in all the
> browsers and all the OSes. Either the undo/redo is deactivated when it
> should be activated, or it doesn't undo when it should.
>
> It seems that JS editors really only want direct control voer enabling and
> disabling the native undo buttons and listen to the beforeinput events for
> both of them. But I understand that due to OS restarints, Safari cannot do
> this. Instead they seem to argue that one could get a simple undo manager
> where JS can manually add items and make the undo scope be local. This
> seems to be almost as good, although it will likely create problems for
> collaborate editors, when a change of user A mean that the last 7 changes
> of user B no longer have any meaning.
>
> The main point here is that we really need to get going with this. This
> should be in the interest of all the involved organizations and companies,
> as the undo/redo menus are broken for all of them, and have been for a very
> long time.
>
>
>>
>> > * There is a large, opverlapping menu on iOS giving formatting
>> options. This is problematic for two reasons: 1. It overlaps the texteditor
>> 2.
>>
>> I agree with everything you wrote, but I'd like to add one thing here.
>> It's a much broader topic, but we've been researching how we can show our
>> own controls on Safari@iOS and it turns to be extremely hard when the
>> on-screen keyboard is visible. As far as I understand, Safari implements
>> some non-standard viewport mechanics which makes positioning things very
>> hard (if not impossible). From what we've seen, it all works as you'd
>> except in Chrome@Android.
>>
>> This means that not only the menu is overlapping with our controls and
>> that we can't control it, but we also can't reliably display something on
>> the screen when the keyboard is visible. So the situation is broken on 3
>> levels.
>>
>
> I believe I saw a long description with images in a report written by a
> CKEditor person some months ago. Do you have the link for this?
>
>
>> >  The issue with the non-available features in editors has apparently
>> become worse with the "Touch Bar" on Macbook Pro. While Safari always had
>> some editing options hidden in an obscure menu that don't seem to work in
>> any of the existign editors, some of these formatting options are now more
>> prominently placed, which means it will be more obvious when they don't
>> work [5].
>>
>> This is really sad. We've been working to gain more control over the
>> editing experience and suddenly a font color picker appears in the "Touch
>> Bar". I can even understand bold, italic and lists which are what more than
>> 90% RTEs enable (although, not all – see Twitter). But font color doesn't
>> appear in any modern editor because it's a non-semantic styling option
>> which, in most cases, content authors should not be able to use. Exposing
>> features like font color picker in the touch bar moves us back to 00's [4].
>>
>
> Well, I can see that there are 7 Billion people on this planet and with so
> many different writing styles and needs, there is likely also a community
> out there that happens to want these features. And having direct access to
> some of the richtext editing features right on the keyboard sounds pretty
> neat.
>
> But I must agree with Piotr that this isn't what the main editors
> currently are interested in. I wonder: Has Apple considered whether to open
> up these various formatting menus (on iOS and macOS) so that the JavaScript
> editors can enter their own menu items in there and replace the existing
> ones? It seems like this would allow both for you to keep your menus, while
> alleviating some of the frustration these editor devs have had when dealing
> with Apple products.
>
>
>
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/150#issuecomment-249815640
>> [2] https://github.com/w3c/editing/issues/150#issuecomment-249775255
>> [3] https://github.com/ckeditor/ckeditor5-design/issues/149
>> [4] https://twitter.com/reinmarpl/status/815891250612174848
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>> Piotrek Koszuliński | CKEditor Lead Developer
>> --
>> CKSource – http://cksource.com | Follow CKSource on: Twitter
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Johannes Wilm
> Fidus Writer
> http://www.fiduswriter.org
>