Re: Data "on" the Web vs Data "in" the Web

Hoi Steve,

> Last year Facebook announced its graph search function, choosing the power
> of semantic search without RDF.  What I have learned from this WG
> experience so far is that W3C doesn't really create open standards. It
> creates and enhances and promotes W3C standards.
>
I've some difficulties to follow you on that one, aren't W3C standards open
?

> The rest of the world often thanks W3C for its ideas and then implements
> those ideas in different ways.
>
I thought this was rather common in industry. People copy each other and
spend time re-branding the same ideas, also probably to go around patents
while re-using things that are indeed good ideas. E.g. "retina display"
versus "hd screen", "facetime" VS "hangout" VS "videoconference", "like" VS
"+1", google's graph VS facebook's graph, etc ...

> Can we, this WG, imagine creating or recommending standards that are
> objective - that describe things to do that anyone can do with or without
> RDF?
>
We'll see... :)

Regards,
Christophe

>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
> ------------------------------
>
> *  From: *Christophe Guéret [christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl]
> *  Sent: *03/24/2014 04:01 PM CET
> *  To: *Steven Adler
> *  Cc: *Christophe Gueret <christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl>; Augusto
> Herrmann <augusto.herrmann@gmail.com>; "hellmatic@gmail.com" <
> hellmatic@gmail.com>; public-dwbp-wg <public-dwbp-wg@w3.org>
>
> *  Subject: *Re: Data "on" the Web vs Data "in" the Web
>
>
>
> So now we are creating W3C standards for publishing data as unstructured
>> text on websites?
>>
> The message of this presentation is actually quite the opposite ;-)
> Instead the idea is to use the Web as platform to host the data. That is,
> instead of publishing datasets as resources use URIs and HTTP to gain
> access to specific (structured !) elements of data sets which can be linked
> and re-used. There has to be a structure and there has to be links
> possibility but this does not mean that RDF is the only model that will
> work out and that RDF/XML is the only way to serialise data.
>
> Is that what's in the charter?  Honestly I have always found the charter
>> to be confusing. Maybe it was intended to be machine readable. ;-
>>
>> :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Christophe
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Steve
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *  From: *Christophe Guéret [christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl]
>> *  Sent: *03/24/2014 03:42 PM CET
>> *  To: *Steven Adler
>> *  Cc: *Augusto Herrmann <augusto.herrmann@gmail.com>; "
>> hellmatic@gmail.com" <hellmatic@gmail.com>; DWBP Public List <
>> public-dwbp-wg@w3.org>
>>
>> *  Subject: *Re: Data "on" the Web vs Data "in" the Web
>>
>>
>> Hoi,
>>
>> I think this (semantic !) discussion around data "on" and "in" can be a
>> good way to let people see the difference being putting a link to a
>> resource which is a data set dump ("on") and providing some kind of API
>> ("in") - whatever the technologies of the API are. Lately, I've been using
>> that argument to point people to the fact that downloading dumps of data in
>> various forms is like doing document sharing prior to the Web. Coming them
>> to the conclusion that we should publish our data as Web sites. There is a
>> bit of a focus set on SemWeb technologies for that but, really, we could
>> think of many other ways to reach the same result. Here are the slides,
>> comments are most welcome ;-) :
>> http://www.slideshare.net/cgueret/linking-knowledge-spaces
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Christophe
>>
>>
>>
>> On 20 March 2014 15:17, Steven Adler <adler1@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Augusto,
>>>
>>> I am interested in learning about HAL and look forward to this
>>> discussion.  But I am a bit concerned with the way you phrase these
>>> sentences:
>>>
>>> "There should be a way to at first publish open data resources that are
>>> linked, but without rdf, such as in xml and json. Then, at a later date,
>>> improve with a descriptive rdf vocabulary and expressed in rdf to become
>>> linked open data (preferrably, if possible, keeping compatibility with
>>> clients that implemented reading the previous non-semantic version)."
>>>
>>> To me this reads that non-rdf methods like xml and json are
>>> accommodations to constituents who "have not yet seen the light of RDF" and
>>> I want to make sure we are providing best practices standards
>>> recommendations to the world that exists rather than the "perfect world" we
>>> would like someday to exist.
>>>
>>> At IBM, we make software that runs on many operating systems.  Of course
>>> we employ people with preferences for OSX, Linux, Systemz, AIX, Unix, and
>>> even Windows.  Heck, many ATMS around the world still run on OS/2...
>>>
>>> But because our customers run all of the above we supply them with all
>>> of the above solutions.
>>>
>>> Can we agree on an "all of the above" approach to DWBP (without
>>> suggesting that everything someday becomes RDF) too?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> Motto: "Do First, Think, Do it Again"
>>>
>>>
>>>  From: Augusto Herrmann <augusto.herrmann@gmail.com> To: DWBP Public
>>> List <public-dwbp-wg@w3.org> Date: 03/19/2014 01:16 PM Subject: Re:
>>> Data "on" the Web vs Data "in" the Web
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> this is a very important point, Ig. My thoughts exactly when I suggested
>>> we look at the Hypertext Application Language (HAL) proposal *[1]*<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kelly-json-hal>in the first meeting. It was in fact an invitation for us to think about
>>> data "in" the web, as in "part of the web itself". We don't necessarily
>>> have to follow HAL, but should look at is as a source of inspiration. The
>>> way links are represented in resources in Subbu Allamaraju's RESTful
>>> Webservices Cookbook *[2]*<http://books.google.com.br/books?id=LDuzpQlVuG4C>is another source of inspiration.
>>>
>>> We should think of standard ways to insert links to other data into many
>>> common open data formats, such as xml, json and maybe even csv.. Of course
>>> this linking requirement is satisfied by linked open data and rdf, but
>>> sometimes organizations have some data and are willing to pubilsh, but
>>> initially do not have the necessary resources (i.e. people, knowledge) to
>>> develop vocabularies to describe the data. However, interlinking among
>>> resources of a dataset, or even linking to resources in other datasets is
>>> somewhat easier to do. There should be a way to at first publish open data
>>> resources that are linked, but without rdf, such as in xml and json. Then,
>>> at a later date, improve with a descriptive rdf vocabulary and expressed in
>>> rdf to become linked open data (preferrably, if possible, keeping
>>> compatibility with clients that implemented reading the previous
>>> non-semantic version).
>>>
>>> Perhaps this could become a use case for the Best Practices document.
>>>
>>> [1] *http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kelly-json-hal*<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kelly-json-hal>
>>> [2] *http://books.google.com.br/books?id=LDuzpQlVuG4C*<http://books.google.com.br/books?id=LDuzpQlVuG4C>
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Augusto Herrmann
>>> Open Data Team - Ministry of Planning - Brazil
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Ig Ibert Bittencourt <
>>> *ig.ibert@gmail.com* <ig.ibert@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Hello DWBP,
>>>
>>> I was reading again about the 5 Start for Open Data and I saw this
>>> affirmation below about 3 starts Web Data [1] that I think would be
>>> interesting to share with this WG.
>>>
>>> *Excellent! The data is not only available via the Web but now everyone
>>> can use the data easily. On the other hand, it's still data on the Web and
>>> not **data in the Web*<http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/data-and-the-web-choices/>
>>> *.*
>>>
>>>
>>> With regards this affirmation, you can see more details in [2] and [3],
>>> but not that much.
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] *http://5stardata.info/* <http://5stardata.info/>
>>> [2]
>>> *http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/data-and-the-web-choices/*<http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/data-and-the-web-choices/>
>>> [3] *http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200211/msg01290.html*<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200211/msg01290.html>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Ig Ibert Bittencourt
>>> Professor Adjunto III - Universidade Federal de Alagoas (UFAL)
>>> Vice-Coordenador da Comissão Especial de Informática na Educação
>>> Líder do Centro de Excelência em Tecnologias Sociais
>>> Co-fundador da Startup MeuTutor Soluções Educacionais LTDA.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Onderzoeker
>> +31(0)6 14576494
>> christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl
>>
>> *Data Archiving and Networked Services (DANS)*
>>
>> DANS bevordert duurzame toegang tot digitale onderzoeksgegevens. Kijk op
>> www.dans.knaw.nl voor meer informatie. DANS is een instituut van KNAW en
>> NWO.
>>
>>
>> Let op, per 1 januari hebben we een nieuw adres:
>>
>> DANS | Anna van Saksenlaan 51 | 2593 HW Den Haag | Postbus 93067 | 2509
>> AB Den Haag | +31 70 349 44 50 | info@dans.knaw.nl <info@dans.kn> |
>> www.dans.knaw.nl
>>
>>
>> *Let's build a World Wide Semantic Web!*
>> http://worldwidesemanticweb.org/
>>
>> *e-Humanities Group (KNAW)*
>> [image: eHumanities] <http://www.ehumanities.nl/>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Onderzoeker
> +31(0)6 14576494
> christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl
>
> *Data Archiving and Networked Services (DANS)*
>
> DANS bevordert duurzame toegang tot digitale onderzoeksgegevens. Kijk op
> www.dans.knaw.nl voor meer informatie. DANS is een instituut van KNAW en
> NWO.
>
>
> Let op, per 1 januari hebben we een nieuw adres:
>
> DANS | Anna van Saksenlaan 51 | 2593 HW Den Haag | Postbus 93067 | 2509 AB
> Den Haag | +31 70 349 44 50 | info@dans.knaw.nl <info@dans.kn> |
> www.dans.knaw.nl
>
>
> *Let's build a World Wide Semantic Web!*
> http://worldwidesemanticweb.org/
>
> *e-Humanities Group (KNAW)*
> [image: eHumanities] <http://www.ehumanities.nl/>
>



-- 
Onderzoeker
+31(0)6 14576494
christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl

*Data Archiving and Networked Services (DANS)*

DANS bevordert duurzame toegang tot digitale onderzoeksgegevens. Kijk op
www.dans.knaw.nl voor meer informatie. DANS is een instituut van KNAW en
NWO.


Let op, per 1 januari hebben we een nieuw adres:

DANS | Anna van Saksenlaan 51 | 2593 HW Den Haag | Postbus 93067 | 2509 AB
Den Haag | +31 70 349 44 50 | info@dans.knaw.nl <info@dans.kn> |
www.dans.knaw.nl


*Let's build a World Wide Semantic Web!*
http://worldwidesemanticweb.org/

*e-Humanities Group (KNAW)*
[image: eHumanities] <http://www.ehumanities.nl/>