W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-dwbp-comments@w3.org > August 2016

Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

From: Phil Archer <phila@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 16:37:26 +0100
To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br>, Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
Cc: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@lab126.com>, "ishida@w3.org" <ishida@w3.org>, "public-dwbp-comments@w3.org" <public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>, www International <www-international@w3.org>
Message-ID: <722c3005-7b1b-c809-6e72-414e46c41d1d@w3.org>
I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3. You can 
see the results at

This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value of 
the xsd datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for it to be 
an amendment rather than a whole new one - I hope.

This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have not 
moved the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the editors who may 
want to make further changes - or argue for it to be left where it is, 
or add references from the formats section or, or, or...

I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447


[1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02

On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
> Dear Ishida,
> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to ask your
> opinion about two of our proposals:
> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3 [2], or
> 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section 8.8 Data Formats
> [3] to discuss the relevance of having local-neutral representations.
> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed that we
> won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new BP and to collect
> feedback from the community.
> Thanks a lot!
> DWBP editors
> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
> 2016Jul/0028.html
> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
> [4] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.html
> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>:
>> Hi Addison,
>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I am still
>> missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as to how to represent
>> the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most easily be made locale
>> specific by existing tools. You mention "pre-made standards for the basic
>> data types". Is there a recommended list we could reference?
>> Thanks for your help!
>> -Annette
>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>> Hi Annette,
>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of the WG.
>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the Internet in
>>> general. One familiar format referenced by your document, for example, is
>>> XML Schema. While the representations of numbers, dates, and the like in
>>> XML Schema would be "more appropriate" for some languages/locales than
>>> others if given as plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all
>>> machine readable and intended to be read by machines for later processing.
>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the data's
>>> consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific separators (such as
>>> decimal separators) over other, more localized values. Save for "free text"
>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and these
>>> include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course, covered
>>> fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we have many
>>> different common measurement units defined internally. To transmit these in
>>> a locale-neutral manner, we need to construct our own data schemas and
>>> identifiers. There are profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto
>>> parts, hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a nightmare to
>>> have to deal with localized presentation formats on top of that.
>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and these are
>>> what are needed to build almost any data structure necessary for global
>>> interchange of data.
>>> Does that make sense?
>>> Addison
>>> Addison Phillips
>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>>> Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>>> It is an architecture.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>>>> To: ishida@w3.org; public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
>>>> Cc: www International <www-international@w3.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
>>>> representation #187
>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice document,
>>>> but
>>>> we would like some clarification of the practice of locale neutrality.
>>>> You
>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
>>>> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you give an example
>>>> of a
>>>> locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in
>>>> decimal
>>>> symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or digit shapes. It
>>>> does
>>>> provide a mechanism to separately specify the units, and the example uses
>>>> an ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good ideas. Is
>>>> there a
>>>> broad standard (beyond just monetary) for addressing the other
>>>> symbol/representation issues you raised that we can address briefly in
>>>> our
>>>> best practice? Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
>>>> approach? Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
>>>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your example)?
>>>> -Annette
>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, ishida@w3.org wrote:
>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications
>>>>> to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers that
>>>>> may look similar but have different meanings in different locales.
>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
>>>>> locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the string
>>>>> "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following is strongly
>>>>> preferred:
>>>>> ```
>>>>> "price" {
>>>>>     "value": 2000.00,
>>>>>     "currency": "EUR"
>>>>> }
>>>>> ```
>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
>>>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
>>>>> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because there can
>>>>> be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation) that sending a
>>>>> locale neutral format is preferred for data values. Note also btw that
>>>>> the position of the currency symbol is dependent on the locale. In
>>>>> France it would be normal to write 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>>> --
>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>> --
>> Annette Greiner
>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory


Phil Archer
W3C Data Activity Lead

+44 (0)7887 767755
Received on Friday, 19 August 2016 15:34:59 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Friday, 17 January 2020 19:38:13 UTC