Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Dear Ishida,

This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to ask your
opinion about two of our proposals:

1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3 [2], or
2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section 8.8 Data Formats
[3] to discuss the relevance of having local-neutral representations.

We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed that we
won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new BP and to collect
feedback from the community.

Thanks a lot!
DWBP editors

[1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
2016Jul/0028.html
[2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
[3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
[4] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.html


2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>:

> Hi Addison,
>
> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I am still
> missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as to how to represent
> the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most easily be made locale
> specific by existing tools. You mention "pre-made standards for the basic
> data types". Is there a recommended list we could reference?
>
> Thanks for your help!
> -Annette
>
>
> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>
>> Hi Annette,
>>
>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of the WG.
>>
>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the Internet in
>> general. One familiar format referenced by your document, for example, is
>> XML Schema. While the representations of numbers, dates, and the like in
>> XML Schema would be "more appropriate" for some languages/locales than
>> others if given as plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all
>> machine readable and intended to be read by machines for later processing.
>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the data's
>> consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific separators (such as
>> decimal separators) over other, more localized values. Save for "free text"
>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and these
>> include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
>>
>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course, covered
>> fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we have many
>> different common measurement units defined internally. To transmit these in
>> a locale-neutral manner, we need to construct our own data schemas and
>> identifiers. There are profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto
>> parts, hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a nightmare to
>> have to deal with localized presentation formats on top of that.
>>
>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and these are
>> what are needed to build almost any data structure necessary for global
>> interchange of data.
>>
>> Does that make sense?
>>
>> Addison
>>
>> Addison Phillips
>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>> Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>
>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>> It is an architecture.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov]
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>>> To: ishida@w3.org; public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
>>> Cc: www International <www-international@w3.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
>>> representation #187
>>>
>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>>
>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice document,
>>> but
>>> we would like some clarification of the practice of locale neutrality.
>>> You
>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
>>> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you give an example
>>> of a
>>> locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in
>>> decimal
>>> symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or digit shapes. It
>>> does
>>> provide a mechanism to separately specify the units, and the example uses
>>> an ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good ideas. Is
>>> there a
>>> broad standard (beyond just monetary) for addressing the other
>>> symbol/representation issues you raised that we can address briefly in
>>> our
>>> best practice? Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
>>> approach? Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
>>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your example)?
>>>
>>> -Annette
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, ishida@w3.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>>
>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>
>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>>
>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications
>>>>>
>>>> to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers that
>>>> may look similar but have different meanings in different locales.
>>>>
>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
>>>> locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the string
>>>> "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following is strongly
>>>> preferred:
>>>>
>>>> ```
>>>> "price" {
>>>>     "value": 2000.00,
>>>>     "currency": "EUR"
>>>> }
>>>> ```
>>>>
>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
>>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>>
>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
>>>> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because there can
>>>> be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation) that sending a
>>>> locale neutral format is preferred for data values. Note also btw that
>>>> the position of the currency symbol is dependent on the locale. In
>>>> France it would be normal to write 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>> Annette Greiner
>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>
>>>
> --
> Annette Greiner
> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>
>
>


-- 
Bernadette Farias Lóscio
Centro de Informática
Universidade Federal de Pernambuco - UFPE, Brazil
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