Re: [dpub-aria] @rel (was 20160114 meeting cancelled)

We were discussing a possible role description for link roles. ARIA 1.1 has
a role description: aria-roledescription
We were also discussion possible new aria attributes for the type of link.

The problem is that @rel can have a link that points to all sorts of things
as you know. ... Dublic core meta data, and so on, which constitute other
semantic taxonomies. The semantics mapping issues grow exponentially.

So, if we expose @rel to platform accessibility APIs it becomes quite
complicated as to how to do it correctly. Values such as "prefetch" have no
value to an AT. The combination is a catch all for semantics (hence the
cesspool).

So, AT vendors need to adapt their products for these new accessibility
semantics. Many of them have limited budgets and they expect people to pay
for the development. Who is going to do that?

Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger



From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
To: Tzviya Siegman <tsiegman@wiley.com>
Cc: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, W3C PF - DPUB Joint
            Task Force <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>
Date: 01/15/2016 07:41 AM
Subject: Re: [dpub-aria] @rel (was 20160114 meeting cancelled)



Tzviya, Rich,

I must admit I did not follow the details of the discussions for a while.
*If* using @rel is not the solution, what are the current, available
approaches instead? Is there some sort of a clear list of alternatives that
are still on the table? (I know there were discussions around this already
prior to TPAC.)

My apologies if that was already clearly stated and I just missed it.

Minor comments below


      On 15 Jan 2016, at 14:26, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <
      tsiegman@wiley.com> wrote:

      Hi Rich,

      I just changed the subject line so that people will see this.

      Rich has raised some concerns with @rel (in lieu of *ref). Let’s try
      to discuss via email because time is of the essence:

      Quoting Rich’s message:


      Keep in mind this will require:
            New Accessibility API mappings for @rel in HTML 5 that do not
            exist today. Currently @rel is not mapped.

Understood. But we already have to define mappings for a range of @role
values for DPUB anyway, right?
            Adding @rel to SVG

You mean adding @rel to the SVG spec? That is probably the biggest obstacle
indeed. Actually, SVG uses the Simple Link of XLInk and xlink:arcrole is
probably available already, but that is only in theory; I do not think any
SVG tool would ever use it and they may fail on them. And it is of course
then an alias to @ref from an ARIA point of view, which is never a good
thing...
            Dealing with the problem that @rel references a my words (a
            cesspool) of meta data semantics that any mapping to platform
            accessibility APIs would need to sift through.

I am not sure I understand what you mean. Where is this different from the
mapping that you already refer to?
            Figuring out how to fund AT Vendors to support the new
            accessibility api mappings across platform.

Don't we have the same problem with the DPUB ARIA module already? I am also
not sure what it means, for W3C, to 'fund' AT Vendors…

Thanks

Ivan


      I understand that these are concerns from an accessibility
      standpoint, but we are not suggesting adding @rel to ARIA but making
      use of a valid HTML attribute. If AT doesn’t recognize @rel, isn’t
      that already a problem. The questions we had hoped to discuss next
      week are the ones associated with the semantics, and whether the
      semantics generated by @rel will cause problems. It is quite
      troubling that @rel, which should be quite robust seems to have been
      restricted to fewer than 5 values.

      Thanks,
      Tzviya


      Tzviya Siegman
      Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
      Wiley
      201-748-6884
      tsiegman@wiley.com

      From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
      Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 2:48 PM
      To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
      Cc: DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org)
      Subject: RE: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled



      We can discuss this next week but when I heard that you were
      considering @rel again it appeared that the group might have
      forgotten the issues. Consequently, I sent them out to the group so
      you have them.

      We can certainly discuss these on the list.

      Rich


      Rich Schwerdtfeger

      <image001.gif>"Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" ---01/14/2016 08:15:04
      AM---Hi Rich, We want to discuss the pros/cons. As explained last
      week, Markus, Matt, and I are meeting d

      From: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>
      To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
      Cc: "DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org)" <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>
      Date: 01/14/2016 08:15 AM
      Subject: RE: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled




      Hi Rich,

      We want to discuss the pros/cons. As explained last week, Markus,
      Matt, and I are meeting deadlines for EPUB now. Janina had planned to
      discuss this next week at APA. If we need to discuss sooner, can we
      do it over email?

      Thanks,
      Tzviya

      Tzviya Siegman
      Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
      Wiley
      201-748-6884
      tsiegman@wiley.com

      From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]
      Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 9:09 AM
      To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
      Cc: DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org)
      Subject: Re: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled



      That is unfortunate. I understand that the DPUB people want to go
      back to @rel for the special links currently specified in dpub-aria.

      Keep in mind this will require:
            New Accessibility API mappings for @rel in HTML 5 that do not
            exist today. Currently @rel is not mapped.
            Adding @rel to SVG
            Dealing with the problem that @rel references a my words (a
            cesspool) of meta data semantics that any mapping to platform
            accessibility APIs would need to sift through.
            Figuring out how to fund AT Vendors to support the new
            accessibility api mappings across platform.

      I currently don't support this approach but I am not going to fight
      it either. I agree that it does not make sense to create multiple
      roles for each type of link. This is reflected in the current
      specifications.

      Rich

      Rich Schwerdtfeger

      <image001.gif>"Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" ---01/13/2016 08:58:50
      AM---The 2016-01-14 DPUB-ARIA meeting is cancelled We'll pick up
      again shortly.

      From: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>
      To: "DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org)" <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>
      Date: 01/13/2016 08:58 AM
      Subject: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled





      The 2016-01-14 DPUB-ARIA meeting is cancelled

      We’ll pick up again shortly.


      Tzviya Siegman
      Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
      Wiley
      201-748-6884
      tsiegman@wiley.com




----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/

mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704




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