Re: [dpub-aria] @rel (was 20160114 meeting cancelled)

Tzviya, Rich,

I must admit I did not follow the details of the discussions for a while. *If* using @rel is not the solution, what are the current, available approaches instead? Is there some sort of a clear list of alternatives that are still on the table? (I know there were discussions around this already prior to TPAC.)

My apologies if that was already clearly stated and I just missed it.

Minor comments below


> On 15 Jan 2016, at 14:26, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Rich,
> 
> I just changed the subject line so that people will see this.
> 
> Rich has raised some concerns with @rel (in lieu of *ref). Let’s try to discuss via email because time is of the essence:
> 
> Quoting Rich’s message:
> Keep in mind this will require:
> 
> New Accessibility API mappings for @rel in HTML 5 that do not exist today. Currently @rel is not mapped.

Understood. But we already have to define mappings for a range of @role values for DPUB anyway, right?
> Adding @rel to SVG

You mean adding @rel to the SVG spec? That is probably the biggest obstacle indeed. Actually, SVG uses the Simple Link of XLInk and xlink:arcrole is probably available already, but that is only in theory; I do not think any SVG tool would ever use it and they may fail on them. And it is of course then an alias to @ref from an ARIA point of view, which is never a good thing...
> Dealing with the problem that @rel references a my words (a cesspool) of meta data semantics that any mapping to platform accessibility APIs would need to sift through.

I am not sure I understand what you mean. Where is this different from the mapping that you already refer to?
> Figuring out how to fund AT Vendors to support the new accessibility api mappings across platform.

Don't we have the same problem with the DPUB ARIA module already? I am also not sure what it means, for W3C, to 'fund' AT Vendors…

Thanks

Ivan


> I understand that these are concerns from an accessibility standpoint, but we are not suggesting adding @rel to ARIA but making use of a valid HTML attribute. If AT doesn’t recognize @rel, isn’t that already a problem. The questions we had hoped to discuss next week are the ones associated with the semantics, and whether the semantics generated by @rel will cause problems. It is quite troubling that @rel, which should be quite robust seems to have been restricted to fewer than 5 values.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tzviya
> 
> 
> Tzviya Siegman
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
> Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>
> 
> From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>]
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 2:48 PM
> To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
> Cc: DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)
> Subject: RE: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled
> 
> We can discuss this next week but when I heard that you were considering @rel again it appeared that the group might have forgotten the issues. Consequently, I sent them out to the group so you have them.
> 
> We can certainly discuss these on the list.
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> 
> <image001.gif>"Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" ---01/14/2016 08:15:04 AM---Hi Rich, We want to discuss the pros/cons. As explained last week, Markus, Matt, and I are meeting d
> 
> From: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc: "DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)" <public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>
> Date: 01/14/2016 08:15 AM
> Subject: RE: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Rich,
> 
> We want to discuss the pros/cons. As explained last week, Markus, Matt, and I are meeting deadlines for EPUB now. Janina had planned to discuss this next week at APA. If we need to discuss sooner, can we do it over email?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tzviya
> 
> Tzviya Siegman
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
> Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>
> 
> From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>]
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 9:09 AM
> To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
> Cc: DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)
> Subject: Re: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled
> 
> That is unfortunate. I understand that the DPUB people want to go back to @rel for the special links currently specified in dpub-aria.
> 
> Keep in mind this will require:
> 
> New Accessibility API mappings for @rel in HTML 5 that do not exist today. Currently @rel is not mapped.
> Adding @rel to SVG
> Dealing with the problem that @rel references a my words (a cesspool) of meta data semantics that any mapping to platform accessibility APIs would need to sift through.
> Figuring out how to fund AT Vendors to support the new accessibility api mappings across platform.
> 
> I currently don't support this approach but I am not going to fight it either. I agree that it does not make sense to create multiple roles for each type of link. This is reflected in the current specifications.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> 
> <image001.gif>"Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" ---01/13/2016 08:58:50 AM---The 2016-01-14 DPUB-ARIA meeting is cancelled We'll pick up again shortly.
> 
> From: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
> To: "DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)" <public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>
> Date: 01/13/2016 08:58 AM
> Subject: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 2016-01-14 DPUB-ARIA meeting is cancelled
> 
> We’ll pick up again shortly.
> 
> 
> Tzviya Siegman
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
> Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704