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Re: web resource and terminology

From: Jean Kaplansky <jkaplansky@safaribooksonline.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 09:58:01 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHY73a7Dq6h_QKFDkidhq_75HrMp6ibLWg9RXa8TC2JHn6tx1w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Cc: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@bell.net>, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
+1 for aggregated... And actually using Merriam Webster instead of Google:
define: !

Bottom line, what's more important?: avoiding terminology that may be a
buzz word a particular community, or making the whole thing unambiguous in
terms of the written language?

I'm more in favor of disambiguation than marketing myself. Smart people
will be reading the work of the W3C DPUB. Is it really that hard to switch
contexts if you know you're out of your sweet spot?

Apparently, yes: we had a go around a couple of years ago regarding the
difference in the meaning of the word "semantic" to people in publishing
vs. people in the web and IoT community.

Point being: maybe we need some reminder language that the glossary itself
had a particular context to DPUB, and that people should not attempt to
layer other contexts on top of the DPUB context when they read DPUB
publications. It's a simple thing. It's also a very powerful tool to help
people switch gears and their current contextual frame of reference.

So concludes my immediately post-coffee $.02 USD for today.


On Monday, September 28, 2015, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:

> (A common response to the thread, not only to this mail.)
> - I must admit I do not have the same feeling about "resource" v.a.v.
> "content". I guess everyone comes with a different baggage that influences
> our reactions. For me (and I think it was Deborah who brought this into the
> discussion) the term 'resource' is very generic and I was primarily
> influenced by the term as used in RDF[1], although we intentionally
> restricted the RDF term to Web resources (in RDF, conceptually, I can also
> be considered as a resource:-).
> Also, to be awfully pedantic: the "content" of a resource is not the same
> as the resource itself. If I remove some content from a resource, it is
> still the same resource, though with a different content. Ie, I do not
> think relying exclusively on the concept of 'content' would cut it either.
> - I accept the criticism on "collation". I must admit I did not realize it
> has the concept of ordering in it but I obviously yield to my anglo-saxon
> colleagues (and the Merriam Webster entry:-).
> Trying to retrace the history in the thread[2], the way we got to this
> term (and not only use 'set') is, primarily, because we wanted to
> differentiate between a random set of resources bound together and
> something with a clear intention of expressing something. The term
> 'curated' did come up, but there was a sense that the term has a jargon
> meaning in museums or libraries, ie, we should avoid using it. "Collated"
> came into the picture, expressing the intentionality. Another term that did
> come up during the discussion is "aggregated"; maybe that term is better
> than "collated". I just checked in Merriam Webster, and this terms does not
> suggest ordering, so I am happy to change that if people agree.
> Thanks
> Ivan
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-concepts/#resources-and-statements
> [2] http://j.mp/1O8eB6g
> On 28 Sep 2015, at 01:45 , Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@bell.net
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','matt.garrish@bell.net');>> wrote:
> I just hate nuances, and web document and html document are often used
> interchangeably without consideration that a web document isn't restricted
> to being an html document. It's clear that html documents aren't the only
> content-carrying resources allowed, but outside an audience well-versed in
> web terminology I expect the difference will get lost. I did a quick search
> and after an initial wikipedia entry that got it right, every use equated
> web document with html page.
> But I get there is also awkwardness when you do, in fact, only want to
> represent a single html document.
> Go with Portable Web Content and no one wins... ;)
> Matt
> *From:* Bill Kasdorf [mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com');>]
> *Sent:* September 27, 2015 7:11 PM
> *To:* Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@bell.net
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','matt.garrish@bell.net');>>; 'Leonard
> Rosenthol' <lrosenth@adobe.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lrosenth@adobe.com');>>; 'W3C Digital
> Publishing IG' <public-digipub-ig@w3.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-digipub-ig@w3.org');>>
> *Subject:* RE: web resource and terminology
> On "curation," I wasn't actually recommending it, I was just speculating
> that perhaps that was what was meant rather than "collation." I agree, a
> more neutral term, something like "assemble" or "collect" or their noun
> forms might be best. "Assemble" has the connotation of a bunch of stuff
> intended to work together, whereas "collect" really just connotes "gather
> together."
> I like the direction you're going with the definition, but I still have a
> problem calling it a Web Document instead of a Web Publication. I have a
> hard time thinking of a big complex collection of resources as a document,
> but I don't have a hard time thinking of a simple standalone document as a
> publication.
> --Bill K
> *From:* Matt Garrish [mailto:matt.garrish@bell.net
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','matt.garrish@bell.net');>]
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 27, 2015 7:04 PM
> *To:* Bill Kasdorf; 'Leonard Rosenthol'; 'W3C Digital Publishing IG'
> *Subject:* RE: web resource and terminology
> I agree that's better than collation, but curation is still odd. Do you
> curate your epub file? Do you curate a web page to make a portable
> representation of it?
> Using "curation" also suggests strong ties with digital curation, and,
> while that activity that might use this portable format as part of the
> larger process of curation, it seems like unnecessary baggage to saddle the
> definition with.
> Is how the resources came to be collected together of any importance
> compared to what they're intended to represent? That point is currently
> hard to discern, but why not something like "A Web Document is set of
> interrelated Web Resources that is intended to be considered as a single
> document or publication."?
> Matt
> *From:* Bill Kasdorf [mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com');>]
> *Sent:* September 27, 2015 4:53 PM
> *To:* Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lrosenth@adobe.com');>>; Matt Garrish <
> matt.garrish@bell.net
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','matt.garrish@bell.net');>>; 'W3C Digital
> Publishing IG' <public-digipub-ig@w3.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-digipub-ig@w3.org');>>
> *Subject:* RE: web resource and terminology
> Actually, three of the four non-religious definitions of "collate" in
> Merriam Webster are about arranging in a proper order, and people in
> publishing almost always associate it with ordering. So although you're
> technically correct that it doesn't always mean ordering, most of the time
> it does.
> My guess was that possibly "curation" was meant, not "collation," which
> has more of a sense of a purposeful gathering together.
> *From:* Leonard Rosenthol [mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lrosenth@adobe.com');>]
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 27, 2015 1:55 PM
> *To:* Matt Garrish; 'W3C Digital Publishing IG'
> *Subject:* Re: web resource and terminology
> Matt – let me see if I can help.  (and, anyone else, feel free to correct
> me)
> You are correct that a style sheet and a script (or a font) are as much
> resources as HTML is.  That is as it should be, because in the context of a
> web document, they aren’t necessarily different.  There is no reliance on a
> “primary resource” (as there is with EPUB, for example).
> Essential content is what would be displayed to the user and/or machine
> processor – depending on the context.   So it might be displaying text, or
> a .csv of spreadsheet data or … But it’s not a font, for example, that
> wouldn’t (necessarily) change the content itself (granted there are
> exceptions to that rule as well, but…)
> Collation is simply a grouping – it has nothing to do with ordering.
> I don’t recall if “web content” was suggested or not, but from your
> description, I don’t think it fits our model (or at least mine).  There are
> things that fit into a PWD that are neither “web content” nor “rendering
> resource” - for example, my .csv in the previous example.  But that is a
> perfectly valid web resource.  I think web resource is a more generic form
> of both – and maybe we could define it that way, if necessary. (though I
> don’t see the necessity right now).
> I think the single page vs. multiple page – or the general problem of
> “sectioning’ a web document hasn’t yet been raised.
> Leonard
> *From: *Matt Garrish
> *Date: *Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:52 AM
> *To: *'W3C Digital Publishing IG'
> *Subject: *web resource and terminology
> *Resent-From: *<public-digipub-ig@w3.org
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','public-digipub-ig@w3.org');>>
> *Resent-Date: *Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:52 AM
> I've been trying to read through the terminology and find there's a
> confusing reliance on "web resource" to mean both the content of the
> document/publication and the resources needed to render the document.
> The definition of web resource seems reasonable enough, in that anything
> that can be referenced by a URI is a resource. By that definition, an HTML
> document is a web resource, but so is a style sheet, script, etc. Stating
> that the content of the resource can be retrieved by a protocol doesn't
> mean that a resource has content in the readable content of the document
> sense (e.g., a style sheet's "content" is all the rules defined in it).
> The two sub-bullets then start to make an unstated distinction between
> types of web resources, however, as an html document will have "essential
> content", but a style sheet or script wouldn't appear to.
> The confusion grows in the web document definition, as now web resources
> are "collated." Is it really the case that fonts, scripts, etc. are
> combined into a specific ordering? I didn't follow the entire email chain,
> unfortunately, but I do recall seeing this in relation to an ordering of
> the content in the web document. Collation makes sense in that context, as
> it is analogous to the epub spine.
> And finally, web resource reappears in its more general sense in the third
> bullet, but here suggesting "essentiality" of certain resources but not
> others (I take from the discussions this has to do with not every resource
> impacting the overall readability).
> Long story short, was consideration given to including a definition of
> "web content" (as also exists in WCAG) to disambiguate these many uses of
> "web resource" for both content and rendering resources? Essential web
> content and functionality is clearer than stated now for resources. A web
> document as a collation of web content is also clearer, and it being a web
> resource is less confusing. Portability would depend on the ability to
> present the content, even if some rendering resources aren't available.
> Anyway, just wanted to share that thought I had while reading. The
> definitions are very nuanced right now without the context of the email
> discussions.
> And as a side note, if "web document" is the ultimate choice for this then
> it might be good to bump up in importance that web document != html
> document from the last sub-bullet of the web document definition. I expect
> the terms are read as synonymous by many people, in which case having a web
> document made up of resources makes it sound like you're defining
> portability only for single pages.
> Matt
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Digital Publishing Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704

Jean Kaplansky
Content Manager

email: jkaplansky@safaribooksonline.com
twitter: @jeankaplansky
Received on Monday, 28 September 2015 13:58:32 UTC

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