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Re: [Glossary] Portable Digital Document's states

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:02:11 +0200
Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, Brady Duga <duga@google.com>, Ralph Swick <swick@w3.org>, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
Message-Id: <941D118E-E4DB-4ABA-BAF8-0E4D371B5EC3@w3.org>
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
I have put a set of definitions on the Glossary[1] trying to close this particular issue. As for the offline/online vs. protocol/file, I propose to use the offline/online differentiation, because that is the common way differentiating in practice, noting (also in the glossary text) that a resource access through http on the local disc may be considered as "online", too. Again, nothing is frozen, but by choosing an equilibrium point we can move on.

Ivan

[1] https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Glossary#States_of_a_Portable_Web_Document <https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Glossary#States_of_a_Portable_Web_Document>

> On 21 Sep 2015, at 15:53 , Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> wrote:
> 
> Because I believe the differentiation between online/offline is more important for some criteria (such as identification) while others are more relevant for file/protocol (such as signatures).
> 
> I agree that a UA that is working entirely from protocols doesn’t know local vs. remote. However, a UA (or more likely the RS on top of the UA) may wish to implement file-based processing.   So the method of access has a clear impact on identification and other things.
> 
> Leonard
> 
> From: Ivan Herman
> Date: Monday, September 21, 2015 at 9:45 AM
> To: Leonard Rosenthol
> Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG, "Brady com>", Ralph Swick, Bill Kasdorf
> Subject: Re: [Glossary] Portable Digital Document's states
> 
> 
>> On 21 Sep 2015, at 15:30 , Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I think it depends on what you are trying to “profile”…
>> 
>> Is it identification?  Security?  Signatures?   What??
> 
> I am not sure how this refers to the the choice between online/offline vs. file/protocol.
> 
>> 
>> I also think that a UA should be free to choose which method it uses for working with local content.  It may choose to process it as a file OR it may have a local server and process it indirectly that way.  Both would/should be valid.
>> 
> 
> I do not think we said, at any time, that any of those are valid/invalid. But a UA, I presume, does not know whether a content accessed via HTTP(S) is local or not: it is all HTTP(S). Again, I am not sure how this affects the choice of the various states we want to consider
> 
> Ivan
> 
> 
>> Leonard
>> 
>> From: Ivan Herman
>> Date: Monday, September 21, 2015 at 8:15 AM
>> To: Leonard Rosenthol
>> Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG, "Brady com>", Ralph Swick, Bill Kasdorf
>> Subject: Re: [Glossary] Portable Digital Document's states
>> 
>> 
>>> On 21 Sep 2015, at 14:02 , Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> As you note, Ivan – there are subtleties involved in actually trying to spell out what each of the quadrants means.  Your example of an unpacked PWD accessed locally via web protocols is a good one, but it could just as easily have been a packaged PWD accessed that same way – in fact, I built one of those back in 2011 as part some work we were doing.
>> 
>> Oh yes, absolutely. I just did not want to overload the figure too much.
>> 
>> The question remains, though: should we stay by the offline/online differentiation or by the protocol/file access one. I am tempted to go for the second for very pragmatic reasons: any user agent would have to make a difference between file vs. protocol, versus they do not care (actually, they do not know!) versus an HTTP access stays local within a machine or not.
>> 
>>> 
>>> But more importantly, the two sets of dimensions are indeed key and for the reasons you state – one for the defining the packaging technology to be used for a PWD and the other for influencing the identification mechanism.
>>> 
>>> Also, now that we have defined a term – Portable Web Document (PWD) - how about using that in all instances where you might previously have written EPUB?   It took us a lot of time/effort to get to that term – let’s use it!
>>> 
>> 
>> :-) Right.
>> 
>> Ivan
>> 
>>> Leonard
>>> 
>>> From: Ivan Herman
>>> Date: Monday, September 21, 2015 at 7:18 AM
>>> To: W3C Digital Publishing IG
>>> Cc: "Brady com>", Ralph Swick, Bill Kasdorf, Leonard Rosenthol
>>> Subject: Re: [Glossary] Portable Digital Document's states
>>> 
>>> So… it seems that we do have two dimensions for 'states. Because Ascii art can go very bad with different clients, I created images as attachments. The first attached image shows is the offline/online vs. packed/unpacked situation with some typical usage scenarios.
>>> 
>>> However, offline/online may be an elusive notion. I would think (although I am not sure) that it may be more precise to differentiate along access methods: in practice, if we are in a Web setting, the difference may be whether the content is accessed via an HTTP(S) protocol, through Web protocols, or whether the content is accessed through a file system. So I created a second image doing that.  Note the difference between the two: if I have an unpacked set of files in a folder, the same content can be accessed via the file system or via a server running on my machine with the same content served through HTTP. Although, in both cases, the content is accessed offline, the access method is different.
>>> 
>>> Whichever four states we choose (and their definitions should be properly pinned down) the real question for this Interest Group is which of these states are of real interest (sic!) for the group and for the digital publishing community at large. And, in fact, I believe all four are. Indeed,
>>> 
>>> - the packed/unpacked dimension is (obviously) of interest for the details and requirements on packaging; ie, it influences the details on an architectural view for some sort of a unified approach for readers' core (our service worker based scenario)
>>> 
>>> - the offline/online or, alternatively, file or protocol access dimension raises questions on identifiers. Do we use generic identifiers overall, regardless of locations, how should the references within a Portable Web Document be organized to ensure a unified identification scheme. (I cc-d BillK explicitly, because I know these questions are of a real interest to him:-)
>>> 
>>> If we agree with these two dimensions, we can go forward and define them more thoroughly
>>> 
>>> Ivan
>>> 
>>>> On 18 Sep 2015, at 18:21 , Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, I believe that caching is more an implementation issue than a format or design issue.
>>>> 
>>>> From: Ivan Herman
>>>> Date: Friday, September 18, 2015 at 9:07 AM
>>>> To: Leonard Rosenthol
>>>> Cc: "Brady com>", W3C Digital Publishing IG, Ralph Swick
>>>> Subject: Re: [Glossary] Portable Digital Document's states
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 18 Sep 2015, at 14:35 , Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> [Sorry for coming in late]
>>>>> 
>>>>> I agree with Brady – there is a huge difference between package/unpackaged and online/offline.  The original terms made more sense to me as they focused on whether the content was usable without standard web protocols (aka offline) or not.
>>>> 
>>>> Indeed. As I say below, we seem to have two different dimension for 'states' and not one dimension only. I can be unpacked and offline, and packed and online. So the question is whether defining two types of states (offline/online and packed/unpacked) is enough. Ie, whether treating cached separately on any dimension is necessary or not (my feeling is that it is not, it is more of an implementation issue).
>>>> 
>>>> Ivan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----
>>> Ivan Herman, W3C
>>> Digital Publishing Lead
>>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ <http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/>
>>> mobile: +31-641044153
>>> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704 <http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> <online offline.jpg><file access protocol access.jpg>
>> 
>> 
>> ----
>> Ivan Herman, W3C
>> Digital Publishing Lead
>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ <http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/>
>> mobile: +31-641044153
>> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704 <http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Digital Publishing Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ <http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/>
> mobile: +31-641044153
> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704 <http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704>
> 
> 
> 
> 


----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704





Received on Thursday, 24 September 2015 07:02:30 UTC

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