Re: pagination features in web apps vs. browsers. (was: Re: [Meeting Summary] Meeting summary for 2015-08-31)

Hi Johannes,

thanks for this, it is important to get the fact rights. I wonder whether it is worth completing the overall view on CSS/Houdini/Pagination on a blog, eg, as a comment or a followup on

http://www.w3.org/blog/dpub/2015/09/01/dpub-ig-telco-2015-08-31-css-wg-meeting-charter/ <http://www.w3.org/blog/dpub/2015/09/01/dpub-ig-telco-2015-08-31-css-wg-meeting-charter/>

ie, the blog you refer to. Do you think you can do this (possibly together with the other CSS guys on the group)? Personally, I believe this would be great.

> On 06 Sep 2015, at 10:56 , Johannes Wilm <johanneswilm@vivliostyle.com> wrote:
> 
> Hey,
> I read the minutes of the meeting meeting.
> 
> 
> I don't think it's quite as negative as some seem to take it. It is true that browser vendors simply are not interested in most of these features, and that will not change no matter with hos much emphasis one makes clear that the publishers really would want this.
> 
> But we are not very far away from getting the features we need to do good  pagination-related features entirely in JavaScript through the CSS Houdini group. Some seem to think that that is the end of talking about page-related features in the CSSWG. I think it's rather the other way round: Browser vendors may not want to discuss those features anymore, and they can go drink coffee meanwhile, but once JavaScript starts consuming CSS, the authors of JavaScript apps will want to discuss about standardization of the CSS features they implement. And the CSSWG may end up being the right place for that.
> 
> However, it is true that even with Houdini, most of the features that are coming are thought up by browser developers, at times with just a rudimentary understanding of all the complexities of web apps. And most of those talking about web apps are thinking of things like speeding up jQuery, not things that are important for us.
> 
> It would really help if some other groups besides us who do page-alike layout using CSS could show up at the CSSWG meetings and give their input on what technical features are needed. Else it can easily sound as if this is just something a few hackers at Vivliostyle came up with and noone else is interested in.
> 

I do not believe anybody would consider this to be features nobody is interested in:-)


> I think Nick is right, that in the publishing industry very few want to do something others then can use for free. The browser world is different in that sense.
> 

Well, not all browsers release their code either:-) But the Readium consortium, if successful, may change things.


> But we cannot really ask browsers to please take over the task of creating a book display system if they aren't really interested in books at all. The publishing world just has to change to survive, and find a way to do it without having the browser vendors remove the their features the publishers need due to shifting priorities (as we saw with CSS Regions).
> 

I understand the first sentence; actually, we had a short discussion on the call on whether it is worthwhile and possible coming up (either in the IG, or Readium, or wherever) with some sort of a pagination software (in JS) that could be used as some sort of a reference and proof-of-concept code (that reading system my then speed up, optimize, whatever). And I would be interested to hear your reaction on that.

However, I am not sure I understand your second sentence. Can you elaborate?

Thanks!

Ivan


> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org <mailto:ivan@w3.org>> wrote:
> Meeting summary is here:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/blog/dpub/2015/09/01/dpub-ig-telco-2015-08-31-css-wg-meeting-charter/ <http://www.w3.org/blog/dpub/2015/09/01/dpub-ig-telco-2015-08-31-css-wg-meeting-charter/>
> 
> Ivan
> 
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Digital Publishing Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ <http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/>
> mobile: +31-641044153 <tel:%2B31-641044153>
> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704 <http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704