- From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:15:04 +0100
- To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <1096BB3A-DA15-49E8-895A-D980E7A9E5B8@w3.org>
The full, technicolor and Dolby Stereo version:
http://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-dpub-minutes.html
The B&W, pedestrian version below:
Ivan
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
23 Mar 2015
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/mid/5509EBBF.1090504@gmail.com
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2015/03/23-dpub-irc
Attendees
Present
Charles LaPierr (clapierre), Tzviya Siegman (Tzviya),
Phil Madans (philm), Mike Miller (MikeMiller), Karen
Myers (Karen_Myers), Nick Ruffilo (NickRuffilo), Liam
Quin (Liam), Vlad Levantovski (Vlad), kwkbtr, Deborah
Kaplan (dkaplan3), Brady Duga (duga), Shinyu Murakami
(murakami), Ivan Herman (Ivan), Peter Krautzberger
(pkra), Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Liza Daly (Liza),
Markus Gylling (Markus), Alan Stearns (astearns), Laura
Fowler (lfowler), Paul Belfanti (pbelfanti), Ben De
Meester (bjdmeest), Dave Cramer (dauwhe)
Regrets
Luc, Heather, Thierry, Julie, David_Stroup
Chair
Tzviya
Scribe
NickRuffilo
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]review on CSS fragments
2. [6]Identifiers
3. [7]latinreq
4. [8]action items in tracker
5. [9]plan face-to-face meetings
6. [10]ePub 3.1 call for functionality
* [11]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 23 March 2015
<scribe> scribe:NickRuffilo
<scribe> scribenick:NickRuffilo
!scribenick:NickRuffilo
<tzviya> agenda
[12]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015
Mar/0022.html
[12] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Mar/0022.html
<tzviya> scribenick: NickRuffilo
<ivan> Chair: Tzviya
Meeting begin!
<tzviya>
[13]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015
Mar/0019.html
[13] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Mar/0019.html
Tzviya: "Any comments on the notes from last meeting?"
...: "Minutes approved."
review on CSS fragments
<tzviya> [14]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-break-3/
...: "Next agenda items - review/comments on CSS fragments from
liza and brady."
[14] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-break-3/
Brady: "Not sure who has read the spec of css-break -
introduces fragmentaners. Covers page-break, column break,
fragment break, etc. How that works in various situations,
floats, etc. Seems obvious but it's actually alot trickier than
it sounds, so it goes into lots of details. I've posted some
comments. No responses yet, but I just posted them. Overall
spec looks good, tackles difficult
area, and would be great to have it implemented."
Ivan: "Can you post a link to reply?"
Brady: "I'm doing multiple replies, but everything has
CSS-BREAK in the title."
Ivan: "In the WWW Style mailing list, right?"
Brady: "Yes"
<astearns> many threads here:
[15]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/
[15] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Mar/
<ivan> comments on the www-style mailing lis
Liza: "I reviewed it in the context of having implemented
pagination using web technologies (aka terrible hack using
something existing like columns or regions or by hand). For me,
the problems I was looking for this to solve - which is solves
some and not others - such as how to break up complex object
like tables. There are some rules on how to break out tables.
What I found is that alot of
concept we have at Safari, in which this spec doesn't address,
is with placed elements like images, video, and movable blocks.
So if you were making print-layout, you would deal with widows,
orphans, images by making the page smaller and dealing with
those cases individually. Certain kinds of content wouldn't
find this solution particularly attractive as it would still
wouldn't work wonderfully
for highly disjointed content. Images, widows, captions, etc."
...: "This won't solve those issues, but it will solve lots of
other complex layouts. Most of publisher content will still not
make publishers feel like pagination is a solved problem."
Brady: "I agree with that. It does not handle the dynamic
reflow you want when dealing with pagination. Unfortunately I
don't quite understand how tables break if you're breaking
within a table-row. Easy to break within the boundaries, but
not sure how a page has multiple page-breaks"
Alan: "I believe multiple-page-breaks is trying to address
that. The section on parallel flows. Examples may not be
sufficient or explicable, so feedback on that would be
wonderful. Spec is just on how things are layed out, but
nothing on how fragment containers are adjusted. Interesting to
see if resizing monolithic elements within a container is
possible within break opportunities. It
tries to deal with widows/ophans and captions in check. You can
have breaks prohibited between paired items. Only issue is when
the two items are unable to fit within the unbreaked
container."
Liza: "Surprised to see lots of examples where the page size
varied from page-to-page. It would describe the behavior if the
pages were extremely varied different sizes. Only time I would
see something like that in real-life publishing is if a page
went from portrait to landscape."
Alan: "Happens more in magazines when you go from full-page to
column-based layouts. Most of CSS assumes you have a particular
length to work in."
Identifiers
<Bill_Kasdorf>
[16]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers
[16] https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers
Bill: "I can be brief: Thanks to Tzviya and Ivan we've made
great leaps forward. The Wiki (link above) has a good group of
people signed up, but more are welcome. What Tzviya contributed
was a great start on a background section. Earlier, Ivan
started to develop a strategy around how we would identify
identifiers that are specific to media types. Just use them,
don't define them. Secondly
identifiers that get you into the package/some place within the
package. Please read the Wiki as there is wonderful information
in there."
...: "I will see if Tzviya/Ivan have anything to add."
Tzviya: "I think we may just want to outline the goal of the
TF."
Bill: "The overarching goal is identifiers in general for ebup
web. Identifying the publication will be messy, so lets first
start with identifying fragments. Ideally the outcome is to
recommend to the W3C refinements to the existing spec or some
other solution that gets us where we need to get. Now we need
to identify fragments as that will be important to annotations
and other sections of
publishing."
Tzviya: "Ideally we take an existing spec with no changes,
IDEAL world..."
<Zakim> liam, you wanted to mention xpointer framework
Bill: "Thats the thing we've identified. Noting what is needed
and hopefully we find that is already out there and the diffs."
Liam: "We have a framework for XML document called XPOINTER
where you name a scheme - cfi or xpath, that is probably worth
looking at as it provides you the ability to define what you're
pointing at and the pointing mechanisms."
...: "People have been doing it for 20 years which is fairly
robust to changes/namespaces"
Ivan: "In a sense, my view is that XPOINTER is something we
should - of course - use as a black box, as well as all the
other fragment identifiers for different media types. Because
they are there and we should not reinvent the wheel. What is
unique is that we have a package and we have to find a way to
get into the package. To all the various schemes in the
background, only CFI and those
that are in the package, are those that are too be reviewed,
critisized, etc."
...: "What both do is start with the package, then identify the
document within the package. The 2nd step is to go within the
document which is in the package. The CSI doesn't do a really
good job because they also specify the fragment into the HTML
document, which should be left to the XPOINTER. The goal is to
get to the document when starting within a package. I have
tried to collect the
requirements for having such a mechanism. Whether those
requirements are the right ones, or if there are others to be
looked at, that is something we need to find together. For
example: My understanding of CFI is that actually it can go
through several documents from the package. From the Package
you can get to HTML, then to an object, then to something else.
So it hops through steps before
getting to a media type, something that the package identifier
does not do."
...: "Not sure this is a requirement for the publishing
industry or not. If it is, it is something we need for the web
packages. CFI doesn't lose any of the fragments. My preferences
would be to rely on fragment identifiers."
... "That would be a way for us to focus on what is specific."
tzviya: "part of it has to do with how we get inside the
package, which is dependent on HOW we structure the package..."
Ivan: "Indeed. the CFI and package fragment take a different
part simply because the package is different. But they do the
same thing."
Markus: "Two things. First - when it comes to fragments - we
have many simple questions to ask. Given the HTML document that
is part of the package. I want to define something that is a
text-fragment, is there a way for me to do that today? What are
the things we would need to do to allow that? That's pretty
straight-forward, but we need to list the requirements but we
need to list the stuff
that we would want to identify."
mgylling: "I wanted to - in terms of ultimate goal - which
pertains to fragments, paths, and identifiers, it isn't just
about packages. If you look at it from the whitepaper, it
shouldn't matter if the package is an archive or exploded and
online. If I create a URI, that URI should look the same no
matter what the publication is (archive or online) which is an
important thing to remember moving
forward. If we don't get there, we will end up reinventing
things with different syntax, but we've painted ourselves into
a corner. We shouldn't have syntax based off a state of the
publication."
Ivan: "we have to deal with the most specific one - identifying
something within one document; The classical fragment issue.
Must have a clear idea on what our requirements are on this
term. What I'm saying is that we should at least try."
<tzviya> me/ hi, dave - still on fragIDs, already did CSS
fragments
...: "If it is an xpointer scheme we haven't implemented yet,
ok, but we need to reply on it. The fundamental approach should
be - whatever possible, rely on existing fragment IDs. This is
one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum is
identifying a BOOK or a document. Which is about giving an
identifier. This is complicated because it isn't a fragment,
it's in the Identifier
world, which is messy. There is something in between which is a
different set of requirements. "
Bill: "I thought we were going to have a TF call? Should we
have the call, or have the discussion via e-mail?"
Tzviya: "Conversation started on the list, then schedule a
call."
latinreq
<tzviya> [17]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/
[17] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/
Dave: "update is that there isn't much to update. Where do we
go from here? Prince is using it as a blueprint for book
products to try to increase the value of that PDF forematter. I
would love to add/flesh out more too it, but not sure what I
should be adding right now. Contributions/comments are very
welcome!"
Nick: "What is latinreq?"
Dave: "How page layout should be done in western languages.
Inspired by JLreq - spec for japanese. What do they do for
pagenumbers, running headers, typesetting, line-heights,
headings."
...: "Alot of this stuff has not been written down anywhere.
Just been the oral traditions of typesetters and composition
people. For the web/electronic documents, been trying to write
it down."
Markus: "What happened with JLReq - it was completed,
finalized, then the editors retired. Do you see latinreq as a
living rec that will not go that path? Or should we maintain
the idea of completeness/final?"
<tzviya> [18]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/
[18] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/
Dave: "I have no intention of ending things. So I think of it
as a living thing. I would like it to keep evolving and getting
bigger/better."
... "Edits will ebb/flow, based on the community and people who
are willing to help. In this case, I don't want to declare
victory and go home. I feel like there is much more."
Tzviya: "There were some areas we would hope there would be
work with other communities, such as STEM. We might find the
results of Peter's survey we might have additional information,
such as equations, etc."
<pkra> +1
Dave: "We'll take contributions in any forms. Sketches,
examples, etc. I'll do the formal writing, but I need
feedback/input"
Alan: "Liza brought up something with fragmentation spec - how
publishing deals with fitting monolithic content into
fixed-size page. There might be useful notes in latinreq about
how such content fits within it's containers."
Tzviya: "Page-break-inside, etc. Sometimes it works, sometimes
it doesnt."
Alan: "Based on the aspect ratio, the caption could be on the
left, right, a different page (the facing page, etc)... Lots of
things that happen around the placement of captions relative to
images."
Tzviya: "Another issue we discussed is tables. Not sure we
discussed diagonal headers... Probably a good discussion about
offline."
...: "When the header is on an angle, but the body content is
normal. Timetables are often done like that."
Tzviya: "if you have exmaples of wacky content, Dave can write
it up."
action items in tracker
<ivan> action-21 ?
<trackbot> action-21 -- Peter Krautzberger to Publish first
draft of stem use cases and pain points summary -- due
2015-02-28 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/21
[19] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/21
Peter: "We are deferring this..."
tzviya: "We need to prioritize. Peter has too many action
items."
...: "Will this come out of the STEM survey?"
Peter: "Yes."
... "Survey going out this week, so we'll be able to do this
after that."
<ivan> action-27?
<trackbot> action-27 -- Peter Krautzberger to Compare mathml
tables with html, and write it up on a wiki page -- due
2015-03-19 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/27
[20] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/27
Peter: "I have done some work, but it hasn't been completed.
Can we just push this? I need to do some stuff for the math
working group. The STEM survey has my priority."
Tzviya: "Do you want to bring this task to the Math working
group and have them do this?"
Peter: "Yes."
<ivan> action-31?
<trackbot> action-31 -- Karen Myers to Initiate business use
case -- due 2015-01-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/31
[21] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/31
Tzviya: "We'll change this to 'by the math working group'"
<ivan> action-34?
<trackbot> action-34 -- Peter Krautzberger to Send stem survey
-- due 2015-01-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/34
[22] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/34
Karen: "Yes. I've made some progress, but please give me 2
weeks. Wnat it by first week in april"
<ivan> close action-34
<trackbot> Closed action-34.
<ivan> action-42?
<trackbot> action-42 -- Ivan Herman to Find someone to review
i18n web page -- due 2015-01-15 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/42
[23] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/42
<ivan> close action-42
<trackbot> Closed action-42.
<ivan> action-43?
<trackbot> action-43 -- Tzviya Siegman to Dpub to read i18n
documentation from epub perspective for gap analysis -- due
2015-01-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/43
[24] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/43
<ivan> close action-43
<trackbot> Closed action-43.
<ivan> action-44?
<trackbot> action-44 -- Markus Gylling to Talk to brady about
fleshing out the pagination use cases -- due 2015-01-19 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/44
[25] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/44
<ivan> close action-44
<trackbot> Closed action-44.
<ivan> action-45?
<trackbot> action-45 -- Brady Duga to Add information to
personalization use cases -- due 2015-02-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/45
[26] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/45
<brady_duga> I dropped (deadzone), but I think I still have
something to do on 45
<brady_duga> I forgot it existed - sorry
<ivan> action-46?
<trackbot> action-46 -- Tzviya Siegman to Contact the html wg
for a working definition of footnote -- due 2015-02-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/46
[27] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/46
Tzviya: "Two weeks will be added to give Brady time."
<ivan> action-47?
<trackbot> action-47 -- Thierry Michel to Create new wiki for
identifiers tf -- due 2015-03-02 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/47
[28] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/47
<ivan> close action-47
<trackbot> Closed action-47.
<ivan> action-48?
<trackbot> action-48 -- Peter Krautzberger to Gather font
metric info from the mathwg for houdini -- due 2015-03-09 --
OPEN
<trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/48
[29] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/48
<pkra> Sorry I dropped off the call.
<pkra> This was actually two items.
<pkra> a) use case of font metrics for MathJax / MathML
polyfilling
Tzviya: "Hoping peter can get in touch witht he Match working
group"
<pkra> b) talk to MathWG about other use cases.
<dauwhe> Link for Houdini Font Metrics spec:
[30]http://dev.w3.org/houdini/font-metrics-api/
[30] http://dev.w3.org/houdini/font-metrics-api/
<pkra> a) I have started on
<pkra> b) I will bring up on the next call with the MathWG.
Tzyiva: "Is there anyoen else who can help peter with this?"
<tzviya> thanks, Peter - is 4 weeks enoughs?
<pkra> tzviya yes, 4 weeks will do it.
plan face-to-face meetings
<tzviya>
[31]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_
Details
[31] https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details
Tzviya: "we have May meeting scheduled for 26th May, NYC.
Please add your information to the wiki to let us know you're
coming. We would like to start planning the agenda."
...: "I think we also talked about broader issues, such as
packaging."
Markus: "Rather than just having reports, which we do on these
calls. So bigger topics such as packaging."
Tzviya: "Please add your name to the May meeting. If you're in
the new york area, please show up. It's the time for IDPF and
BEA. Information for hotels is there. Book early."
...: "TPAC? in Sopporo Japan. We are supposed to respond to a
questionnaire. Organizers need to know if we're going."
<ivan> TPAC: Week of the 26th of October, Sapporo
Ivan: "I think the TPAC meeting is a little different than the
previous. Going through the TF reports we can do elsewhere.
What was very useful in the last one was to talk to a number of
other groups. That would be one of the main reasons that having
the meeting there would be important, even though I realize not
many people will show up. Having our voice heard is important.
Other things we
should try to do is we have unfortunately only a few people
from east-asia in the group and this is a chance for their
voices to be heard."
<tzviya> [32]http://www.w3.org/2015/11/TPAC/
...: "Also good to get a japanese/east-asian perspective. We
should give a slightly different view on the meeting and try to
have it."
... "IETF meeting there as well previous, so Heather may be
there as well."
[32] http://www.w3.org/2015/11/TPAC/
ePub 3.1 call for functionality
Markus: "In the next 2 months, the IDPF is collecting
suggestions for the upcoming epub 3.1 revision. Which will be
proposed in May, and kickoff in the summer/end of year. 3.1 is
first revision that IDPF is running in the lifetime of Digital
Publishing WG and since the relationship and desire for
convergence. That said, 3.1 is not the new big epub web, but an
increment to the existing."
...: "There is an opportunity, even though it can't be
dramatic, to propose features/change requests based on our
work. If you're interested in coming up with such
proposals/suggestions, feel free to contact me."
Ivan: "Typical case - something that may come back to bill - if
you take a look at the document that the Metadata group
produced, there are very specifically things that we say "The
open web platform has the technologies to do this. The DPUB WG
may not use these technologies yet. These are the things that
may come to this."
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
Received on Monday, 23 March 2015 16:15:13 UTC