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[Minutes] 2015-03-09 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 17:32:36 +0100
Message-ID: <54FDCB24.9070805@w3.org>
To: "public-digipub-ig@w3.org >> W3C Digital Publishing IG" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,

The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference 
dated 2015-03-09 are now available at

     http://www.w3.org/2015/03/09-dpub-minutes.html

These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
     http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.

Best,

Thierry Michel

---------------------------------------

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

             Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

09 Mar 2015

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2015/03/09-dpub-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Ayla Stein (Ayla_Stein), Brady Duga (duga), Markus
           Gylling (Markus), Shinyu Murakami (murakami), Tzviya
           Siegman (Tzviya), Ivan Herman (Ivan), Alan Stearns
           (Stearns), Heather Flanagan (HeatherF), Nick Ruffilo
           (NickRuffilo), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Deborah Kaplan
           (dkaplan3), Julie Morris (Julie_Morris), Karen Myers
           (Karen_Myers), Laura Fowler (lfowler), Charles LaPierre
           (clapierre), Ben De Meester (bjdmeest), Thierry Michel
           (tmichel).

    Regrets
           Timothy Cole, Michael Miller, Bill Kasdorf, Luc Audrain,
           Liza Daly, Phil Madans, Vladimir Levantovsky

    Chair
           Markus Gylling

    Scribe
           Nick Ruffilo

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]STEM TF update
          2. [5]packaging
          3. [6]accessibility tf
          4. [7]Update to role module
      * [8]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 09 March 2015

    <pkra> mgylling I have a last-minute conflicting appointment in
    30mins. Any chance I could give an update on the STEM TF at the
    beginning of the call?

    Someday you will, Zakim, someday you will

    scribenick NickRuffilo

    <ivan> scribenick: NickRuffilo

    <HeatherF> *LOL*

    <mgylling> pkra, yes sure you go first

    <pkra> mgylling awseome. thx.

    "We have a special guest, Yves. Peter K will need to leave
    early for another taskforce."

    "We need to approve last weeks minutes.
    Comments/?s/Suggestions..."

    "Great - minutes are approved"

STEM TF update

    "One of the TF updates - Peter. Can you provide a state of
    affairs? Comments?"

    <david_stroup> I am 585.217

    Peter: "With the STEM taskforce, the 2nd and 3rd round of
    questionnaires happened last week. Sent to everyone
    identified..."
    ... " gone out to roughly 90 people, should be enough. Return
    rate isn't shiny (15?) but I will keep annoying people. Has a
    deadline of End of Month. At the same time, we'll work on
    actual responses."

    <tzviya> survey:

    <tzviya>
    [9]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/64149/DPUB-STEM-2014-12/.

       [9] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/64149/DPUB-STEM-2014-12/.

    Peter: "Unless people can magically make people answer the
    survey, suggestions welcome."

    <tzviya> CHORUS forwarded survey to whole mailing list

    Peter: "There are a few more outstanding as people said they
    aren't going to answer, but will forward to others in their
    organization"
    ... "Survey is set to close end of the month."
    ... "Original batch went out about a month ago. The 3rd sendout
    was last week."

packaging

    <tzviya> [10]http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/

      [10] http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/

    Marcus: "Moving on to discussion of packaging - web packaging
    to be exact. We have Yves here - invited by Ivan - the primary
    thing we want to discuss isn't the exact specification, but the
    primary purpose is to understand where the spec is at, within
    the web-apps working group - and what the future is. And how
    the Pub group can get involved."

    Ivan: "Plus anything that Yves may want to discuss with us.
    Maybe - Yves - it would be good to explain your role."

    Yves: "I'm mostly working on updating the document and doing
    face-to-face meetings to get the document ready. The packaging
    format started as a way of identifying - with the URL - a way
    to identify packaging. It then derailed to some use-case as to
    why there was a need for a package format or document. One of
    the main driver was the need for ?JSP? libraries."
    ...: "Using service workers... It is kind of a portable cache
    format. Without the need of a configuration."
    ... "we wanted to actually know if the work we've done will be
    actually useful to our people. We started to gather input from
    other people, and we got some security input, signatures - part
    of the document from inside the package - and of course it
    would be good for us as we know this IG would be interested in
    this type of packaging."
    ... "If out approach was good for you, what would we need to
    make better... The current point is trying to figure out who
    would be the perfect customer of the specification."

    Markus: "So is it safe to say you have no use cases from DPUB?"

    Yves: "No use-cases from DPUB."

    <tzviya> multi-part MIME from digital publishing:
    [11]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/File:OEBFF_draft.pdf

      [11] https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/File:OEBFF_draft.pdf

    Markus: "Currently many DPUB are using epub, which is based on
    ZIP. EPUB considered multi-part MIME, the old (original) spec
    is still available, if you'd like to look at it. Was created
    by/for digital publishing. Was watered down later. Certainly
    historical proof that multi-part MIME has validity for
    publishing."
    ... "One question - is it not too late for use cases at this
    point, or is there a possibility of large changes?"

    Yves: "Certainly not too late. Some browser vendors are
    interested, but waiting for things to stabalize before they
    implement. Perfectly OK to request things now. Now is a good
    time. Also, when considering multi-part MIME, there was an
    issue with servers needing to sending out delimiter - there was
    an issue for one of the use-cases with stringing. -- being able
    to process stringable without

    requiring all the documents in the first place. Don't want to
    know in advance what the perfect delimiter is in advanced."

    Brady: "Re: generating use-cases. My problem is we have an
    existing solution - literally millions of epubs, publisher
    tool-chains, pipelines, huge collection of tools/workflows.
    From my perspective, it feels like we should be understanding
    why we should even consider this. If it doesn't have
    significant benefit over existing solution, not sure why it
    would be considered."
    ... "Existing solution may have flaws, but need to better
    understand the new package first."

    Ivan: "Are the discussions that lead to using the ZIP format --
    archives -- might be of interest to see the arguments against
    multi-part MIME. Some of the arguments may be interesting to
    the working group."

    Brady: "We used to have an archive, may not be official. We
    might be able to dig it up. Personally, I think ZIP was not the
    best decision, and multi-part MIME was the right decision. I
    would support multi-part MIME today. Problem is, we already
    have a solution, and have invested heavily in it, and not sure
    it makes sense to throw away all that work."

    Ivan: "If the decision of the derivative already taken, or can
    the package be revisited? Especially if the use-cases for
    epub/ebooks exists"

    Yves: "Zip is an issue when you take streamability into
    account. The fact that DPUB gets another format as well as this
    one is not an issue. Publishers would have to make a decisions
    as to what format they would want to use. Is what we have good
    enough as a starting point. If you are using something else
    that has breadcrumbs that people know well... "

    Ivan: "The reason why we are looking at it in the first place,
    we - in the long term - epub and documents on the web - will be
    much closer than they are today. Browsers would implement the
    packaging format that the web-application working group is
    proposing. I doubt browsers are willing to implement both of
    them."

    Markus: "Native browsers support for streamability is why we're
    looking at it.."

    Brady: "Not sure ZIP isn't streamable. If you allow for
    deletions/changes..."

    Yves: "Not 100% sure the arguments about ZIP and streamable.
    I'll bring it back up with the discussions."
    ... "There is a need to have a catalog of what's inside..."

    <Yves>
    [12]https://github.com/w3ctag/packaging-on-the-web/issues/14

      [12] https://github.com/w3ctag/packaging-on-the-web/issues/14

    Brady: "Catalog only necessary if there are
    insertions/deletions. You should be able to reconstruct (stream
    the ZIP based on local header. Could be some other reason, but
    it seems that ZIP is streamable if you impose restrictions.
    Arbitrary ZIP, no. Additional requirements, yes."

    Markus: "Would be good to have a definitive answer about the
    streamability of ZIP."

    Ivan: "It's the interest group's job to determine if the ZIP
    format can be used for streamability and the needs of the
    package group."
    ...: "When you talk about use cases - Yves - it would be good
    to know how deeply you go. A number of very high-level use
    cases exist in a white-paper, but they are probably too
    high-level."

    Yves: "When the use-case is there, it lets us know of the
    issues around consuming the package. If there are items that
    are missing from existing applications, based on the choices
    made for the format, we need to know. Security use cases, means
    we have a need to decide/define on those protocols. Basically -
    what is missing at the technical level. It's mostly your group
    that can say 'there is

    something missing there'""

    Ivan: "You want us to add issues to the GitHub?"

    Yves: "GitHub or e-mail to the packaging mailing list are both
    acceptable"

    <david_stroup> apologies, I need to drop...

    dauwhe: "Epub can be a pain - especially because the MIMETYPE
    cannot be compressed, and people need to google it, etc..."

    <tzviya> +1

    Brady: "If you look at the packaging spec, there are 3 reasons
    - it's streamable, tools for ZIP suck, and metadata."
    ... "If you think it's hard to make a zip, imagine how hard it
    is to make some new package that doesn't have tools. But, I can
    put a bunch of headers in."
    ... "Looking at the discussion was 'sure, you can stream a zip,
    but look at all this metadata'"

    <ivan> +1 dauwhe

    Dauwhe: "If we can figure out a way to do things in a specific
    way, ZIP would do what we need."

    <HeatherF>
    [13]https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/arcmedia/charter/

      [13] https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/arcmedia/charter/

    Heather: "This is a small aside - IETF is working on a
    top-level media-type for archiving. They are looking at the
    W3C's work on packaging. It is work just started. Charter is
    linked in IRC."
    ... "Input on the work is welcomed."

    Yves: "The fact that there is a need for a ZIP with a mimetype
    has been a need for many years. Lots of mess on the web because
    of that. The fact that we are creating an archive is good input
    for them as well."

    Tzviya: "Great workflow in place for epubs, but as epub becomes
    more complicated and other publications are searching for a
    good format, some publishers are looking for a good - or better
    - way to publish online. This new package format would be good
    for those publisher and they may be interested in this new
    format."
    ... "Concern is also how readers are going to handle this
    specific format. Phones right now don't well handle a ZIP file
    or an EPUB."

    Ivan: "How does the next 6-12 months look?"

    Yves: "No fixed plan yet, so we'll have to do some
    review/discussion. Pretty sure that in the next 6 months, not
    much will get done with respect to decisions that will render
    the spec final."
    ... "Probably have some new discussions in mid-april. Slow
    progress of the specification."

    Ivan: "Are there plans to extend the specification with an API
    specification as well?"

    Yves: "Not currently, but it is something that might be done.
    There might be some interaction with a service worker, as a way
    to deal with caching. But currenlty that is the only
    specification that we got in terms of using an API. No API to
    manipulate directly the package or contents of the package. If
    there is a use-case/need, then why not?"

    Ivan: "1) Streamability of ZIP - definitive answer. 2) Produce
    use-cases for packaging and feed those to the group."

    <clapierre> I found this Patent from Google on Streamable zip
    filed last year,
    [14]http://www.google.com/patents/WO2014113715A1?cl=en
    ...: "If we get the volunteers to do this work, doesn't mean
    that publishers shouldn't use ZIP. Just researching having
    multi-part MIME as an option for the future. Distinction
    between doing the work and deciding that it will actually be
    used."

      [14] http://www.google.com/patents/WO2014113715A1?cl=en

    <mgylling> Thank you Yves!

    Ivan: "One practical comment: Yves, Until decisions are made,
    is it OK if you come to this call regularly to keep us
    up-to-date?"

    Yves: "I can talk to you and keep you updated that you can keep
    them updated, and I'll join if something to say."

accessibility tf

    Charles: "I sent off an e-mail this morning to a few people -
    summary of the accessibility taskforce accomplishments. Looking
    at WPEG? techniques. ARIA techniques and SMIL are all relevant.
    Silverlight NOT relevant. General: A dozen or so not required.
    And a dozen we weren't sure of. About 1/2 dozen HTML techniques
    we weren't sure of, as with CSS. Only one PDF technique that
    wasn't

    relevant."

    Charles: "We haven't finished the common failures or
    client-side scripting techniques."
    ...: "We'll get feedback from Tzviya and others to see if we
    need to bring concerns to the rest of digital publishing group.
    Will send out an e-mail if that seems necessary. Then continue
    on next steps towards producing a note based on
    concern/issues."

    Ivan: "Did you identify features/requirements that are relevant
    for teh DPUB world but are not addressed in current documents?"

    Charles: "That's a bit more complicated. Such as Page Numbers,
    Drop Caps, etc, but some of these things could be addressed
    from other specs."

    Ivan: "Once you have the first body of documentation done, you
    may want to have guest-stars in to discuss new ways and new
    ideas for what could the gaps be."

    <tzviya> You were a little concerned about resources - how are
    you doing?

    Charles: "We were low on resources, and we're running low. Just
    a small subset of assets were helping out. We're definintely in
    need of additional resources. If anyone is interested in
    creating this note, we need as much help as we can get."

    <tzviya> and, what is your timeline for publishing a note? who
    is the audience?

    Charles: "The audience is publishers. Timeline... Ideally by
    the end of this year. My availability just got cut in half so
    I'm running low on time myself. Deborah is as well. We would
    need more help."

    Deborah: "What we've been doing is modeling alot of work. The
    other group had a lot of volunteers to data-gather. They had
    alot more regular/steady input from a regular weekly
    commitment. Chairs also did an enormous amount of work. Charles
    and I are struggling with new amounts of work, so we need
    additional retailers."

    <HeatherF> Happy to volunteer, I just feel too ignorant to be
    useful

    Ivan: "Update on ROLE module."

    <tzviya> [15]https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html

      [15] https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html

Update to role module

    Tzviya: "Been working with PF for draft of ROLE module. (link
    posted) Very early editors draft of digital publishing vocab.
    ARIA. Cut out a few additional terms as other areas would be
    better addressed elsewhere. When we can include ETS and other
    groups, we can add more. This is the list of terms we are
    working with."
    ...: "Feel free to look through it. Some terms still need
    clarificaiton. Need to also remove some ambiguity from the
    terms/defintions and make sure things have context outside of
    digital publishing as well."

    Markus: "One of the first challenges is to determine the scope
    of publishing and the defintions of the terms. Almost thousands
    of potential terms and canditates. Going to start simple with
    basic stuff - for general simple books - and evolve it via
    other modules and extending this model. "
    ...: "We're not entirely sure we've reached the sweet spot of
    'too much' and 'too little' but we'll be dealing with this over
    the next few months. Making sure it is useful for a significant
    portion of content out there."
    ... "Resource issues?"

    Tzviya: "Right now we are OK with resources and timeline. Very
    dependent on PF. Will know more on thursday when we meet with
    that group. First editor's draft will be soon? Possibly before
    the IDPF meeting at BEA (may)"

    <tzviya> remember to book for F2F in May!

    <tmichel> rrsagent draft minutes

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [16]scribe.perl version
     1.140 ([17]CVS log)
     $Date: 2015-03-09 16:07:08 $
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      [16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [17] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30
Check for newer version at [18]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
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      [18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/?Yves/Markus/
Succeeded: s/???/dauwhe/
Succeeded: s/IDPF/IETF/
Succeeded: s/SMILE/SMIL/
Succeeded: s/?PS?/PF/
Found ScribeNick: NickRuffilo
Inferring Scribes: NickRuffilo
Present: Ben_De_Meester

WARNING: Fewer than 3 people found for Present list!

Regrets: Timothy_Cole Michael_Miller Bill_Kasdorf Luc_Audrain Liza_Daly
Phil_Madans Vladimir_Levantovsky
Found Date: 09 Mar 2015
Guessing minutes URL: [19]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/09-dpub-minutes.html
People with action items:

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2015/03/09-dpub-minutes.html


    [End of [20]scribe.perl diagnostic output]

      [20] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Monday, 9 March 2015 16:32:43 UTC

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