- From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 18:17:45 +0200
- To: "public-digipub-ig@w3.org >> W3C Digital Publishing IG" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,
The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
dated 2015-06-29 are now available at
http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-minutes.html
These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.
Best,
Thierry Michel
___________________________________________________________
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
29 Jun 2015
[2]Agenda
[2]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0138.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-irc
Attendees
Present
Ivan Herman, Nick Ruffilo, Toru Kawakubo, Dave Cramer,
Tzviya Siegman, Peter Krautzberger, Charles Clapierre,
Luc Audrain, Brady Duga, Alan Stearns, Ben De Meester,
Deborah Kaplan, Heather Flanagan, Liam Quin, Bert Boss,
Thierry Michel.
Regrets
Bill Kasdorf, Julie Morris, Ayla Stein.
Chair
Tzviya
Scribe
NickRuffilo
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]CSS Prioritization
2. [6]changes to white paper
* [7]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 29 June 2015
<scribe> scribenick: NickRuffilo
<laudrain> present_ Luc
<HeatherF> Mute early, mute often.
<tzviya> [8]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html
[8] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html
Tzviya: "any comments on minutes for last week?"
<pkra> +1
<HeatherF> Sorry I missed it
Tzviya: "Silence is golden - the minutes from last week
are..... APPROVED!"
... "Web Annotations Update"
topic Web Annonations Update
<tzviya> [9]http://www.w3.org/annotation/
[9] http://www.w3.org/annotation/
Ivan: "as you know the group was created after a workshop. We
have no quite a good mix of publishers and web-application
developers. That's a good things. part of the good is semantic
web - some are the more 'geeky' web developers. Contact is
going OK - but they think different (tm)"
<ivan> [10]http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd/
...: "There are no issues, that's just the dynamics. As you may
know, the group started with a specific specification that
wasn't a W3C standard - but was created by a community group -
the open annotations community group. They had a pretty
complete specification. That was the main input for the work
there. That work is the annotation data model. The way
annotations are represented when
[10] http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd/
moving to different systems. There was a first working draft
that was published."
ivan: "That document is mostly the same as the community draft.
Biggest difference is that this is based less on semantic web
and TTL (one of the usual languages used for semantic web) and
it has been translated into JSON - and it has both, so it lets
you choose how you'd like to read it. There were some minor
changes."
<ivan> [11]http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/protocol/wd/
...: "There is a documentation called Web Annotations Protocol
(linked above). it's in a fairly good state and we hope to have
it out in the first working draft in 1-2 weeks. It's actually a
document that is based on a recommendation that was recently
published at W3C the LDP (linked data protocol) which looked at
how you transfer this types of data over HTTP and store them,
retrieve them, etc
. Fairly minor specification on top of the existing protocol."
[11] http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/protocol/wd/
<ivan> [12]http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/api/rangefinder/
...: " The 3rd document that is in prep that we hope will be a
draft within a few weeks is the Rangefinder API, which comes
closer and closer to the things we've discussed. The issues is
how do you define a range or a sequence of characters, or place
in a document to which you can attach some annotations - so you
can also change, so it's relatively stable to changes to the
document as a whole
. It's currently and API for Javascript - mainly for JS
applications that are running on the client. But it has issues
on JS level things on how you can get the text of a selection,
and find it in a document... If you look at the document itself
it's full of alot of issues. It needs a lot of work."
...: "Once this rangefinder is specified, there should be some
sort of URI or serialization of it, so I can define it in terms
of URI, or fragment ID."
... "There are lots of discussions on various use cases and
technical details. There are directions that have been raised
that we still don't know if we'll do more. Still not sure if we
want to define and API in Javascript. I don't know if this will
be defined. It is still something we have to look at. The other
thing that is regularly coming up - the annotation data model
is JSON or Turtle
. Implementation will be JSON, but there are discussions on
whether there is an HTML serialization of the model..."
...: "The way it could be used is that a client could add such
elements into the DOM tree. Since it's in terms of the DOM, it
can be styled easily in general - which is probably something
very useful. Whether this would be done using existing elements
or whether it would be done as an extension to HTML is unknown.
We haven't had any serious discussions on it yet."
... "We have some overlaps - which is good. Bill K is regularly
on the call. Rob Sanderson will hopefully come back soon..."
[12] http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/api/rangefinder/
<HeatherF> I can hear folks just fine, ivan included
<pkra> me too.
<tzviya>
[13]https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Use_Cases#Use_Cases_by_t
he_Web_Annotation_Working_Group
[13]
https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Use_Cases#Use_Cases_by_the_Web_Annotation_Working_Group
Tzviya: "From my perspective - what is happening in my
day-to-day - my colleague is attending the annotation meetings.
There are topics we are both discussing. Issues liek fragment
identifier come up, and it may be helpful for everyone to
discuss the overlaps. The use-cases that the WG put together
would be useful. The copy-edit use-case for example."
<Zakim> liam, you wanted to discuss quick note on copy/edi use
case
Liam: "This relates to copy-edit use-case. There is a
change-markup working group. They implemented the open-office
using open markup - may be worth considering what they do."
<liam> [14]https://www.w3.org/community/change/
[14] https://www.w3.org/community/change/
Tzviya: "Idea is to keep the work we are doing in sync. make
sure we're aware of what everyone is working on."
CSS Prioritization
<liam> (I think that is right; DeltaXML has offered their
technology to W3C)
<tzviya>
[15]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015
Jun/0091.html
[15]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0091.html
<dauwhe> google doc:
[16]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15IsDMPwSXx197Iqe4I9
xh7K8anmJ5c0-OFEG7w0LHYM/edit?usp=sharing
[16]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15IsDMPwSXx197Iqe4I9xh7K8anmJ5c0-OFEG7w0LHYM/edit?usp=sharing
Tzivya: "Dave has put together a list of CSS priorities."
<dauwhe> The start of a more expository version:
[17]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html
...: "We can spend some time today work on the priorities
list."
... "Thank you dave - this is the thing we really need to send
to the CSS working group
[17] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html
<pkra> I'm here.
...: "It's STARTING in google docs for easy and quick edits -
but we're doing an HTML doc in github as well"
<pkra> (not sure my mic works though)
Dave: "I think some of this may end up merging with latinReq so
i'm still figuring out the best way to collect and display this
information"
<pkra> mpf
<pkra> will dial-in again.
Tzviya: "Any other comments?"
<laudrain> +q
Luc: "I was just wondering why footnotes is #3? Is it because
it's already processed/specified?"
<pkra> liam I did "Present+ pkra"
<pkra> I'm doa;e
<pkra> (please pignore my single-handed typing)
Dave: "Right now it's mostly a print feature and I'm not sure
there is consensus that it works within digial publishing.
Within paged media I'm not sure there is a reason to display
footnotes as they do in print. It's a feature that's incredibly
difficult to spec. We are a long way from having interest for
implementations. It will have to be a lot of lower level
features - and it is a
problematic area."
Luc: "if we treat footnotes as we do in paper, it could be
complex, but if we treat it as a place where we treat it
differently in digital - it comes down to spec."
Tzviya: "That's an issue for semantics of HTML, not for CSS. "
Luc: "Do we really want footnotes to display at the bottom of
the page in digital?"
DavE: "people are doing tons of things in HTML. There are
popups, and all sorts of renderings. In open-web, we can do
many renderings, but the bottom of a page is not really
possible. Until there are some specific display-mode that
people agree on, it may be a bit pre-mature. i'm not sure what
we would do right now, besides saying "we want displays at the
bottom of the page." that would
need new CSS or markup."
Peter: "How far the MathML spec is a reasonable reference? I
suppose there is an open problem of MathML and CSS in general -
and the reality of it in implementations... How useful is the
MathML reference?"
<pkra> sry'
Dave: "Basically we're unsure how it will introduce it. For the
spreadsheet - this isn't what we'll do when we finally present
it. for each of the math issues - we have different points for
different sections of the spec. We know much exists in the
MathML spec. For the spreadsheet - spell out what items you
want and why (specifics). We'll get to the politics later on."
<Zakim> liam, you wanted to note a tablet sized reader with
visible footnotes could be a killer feature in education,
should be based onuser choice not on CSS and javascript
Liam: "The spreadsheet is great - another aspect is what should
be under USER control and what should be publisher control. You
may also want to say 'i want to see footnotes at the bottom of
the screen' If footnotes are marked up, the readers will have
the ability to let the users choose. We should bear that in
mind."
... 'User style sheets are a low-level thing. No user in the
planet is capable of writing it, so it becomes the job of the
user-agent. This is more global.'
Brady: "The user-stylesheet is misnamed. It's broader - the
ability for the user to do interesting things. User-stylesheet
is probably not the right word."
<liam> [e.g. "display footnotes at bottom of screen" depends on
footnotes being marked up in the text]
Peter: "I think actual work needs to happen between MathML and
HTML/CSS is equations. How far is it appropriate to link to the
mathML spec as a solution to the problem when they are supposed
to be CSS problems."
<pkra> thx
Dave: "Linking to MathML is perfectly appropriate. It is a spec
that has a solution to a particular problem - even if in a
different space.
...: "Going back to user-control over styling. I see that as a
huge issue, on the scale of being it's own task force, I don't
think it has been explored nearly enough. My sense is that that
is the model that CSS was built on and it's entirely inadequate
- and we need to think about that area."
+1
<tzviya> +1
<astearns> +1 to more discussion on user customization - the
discussion usually ends on "not user stylesheets" and needs to
progress past that
Tzviya: "we should not hesitate at ALL on commenting - this is
an early document, please comment."
... "Think of it as a brainstorming thing - priority is hard to
assign and I think dave has done a good job so far with
priorities, if you have input, dave would appreciate it. If
things are missing, throw them in. We also need to figure out
what to do NEXT with the document. And how we bring it up to
our friends."
Dave: "If we have more priorities - more things we want but
don't have - after that it is alot of wordsmitthing and
information and such."
... "Input on priorities is greatly appreciated. I found some
recurring themes. And posted on twitter..."
Ivan: "Let's remember how we started with this current round.
It started because there was a disconnect between DPUB and CSS
WG - and CSS had a false impression that the DPUB community
doesn't have anything to ask for - we're all happy with
problems solved!"
...: "What this table shows is that this is not true. What we
want to show is to see what is the most helpful for the CSS
working group to influence the way the CSS working group
evolves so that everyone is equally happy. Not sure we should
go back into our corner for half a year. we should see this as
a continuous discussion."
Bert: "Hard to say what the BEST approach is, but probably good
to have some people meet at the fence. To get to the
prioirities - you'd need a champion who can talk to people -
alan, dave, myself. Try to get those people to speak up at the
CSS working group. People can read the documents, but you need
someone to explain them in a nice voice
Ivan: "We did have the idea - chris offered to come to this
call at some point - more interested in pagination that
houdini, etc. We could invite daniel glazman, etc. Would be
good to have regular contact"
Nick: "Might be worth a read-through of EPUB3 spec and Apple
Spec"
Dave: "Most of what we've discussed are in multiple specs - so
one of our big task is leaning on browser vendors to actually
implement these things."
... "The CSS working group might not be the only working group
to do that."
Not just browsers - also ereading platforms
Ivan: "We should separate features that land on CSS working
group and features that are just about implementation by
browsers/reading systems"
<laudrain> Sorry, have to quit
Dave: "Ways of structuring that are evolved - I've been trying
to have a category for 'things that need spec' 'things that
have been spec'd but need implementation' ..."
Tzviya: "We have a few tasks in front - items we're asking for,
and from whom we're making the request. Our immediate goal is
to list the items we're asking for. Then what to do next is a
little more complicated. Not alot of support for
implementation. We need it written up and fairly quickly."
<HeatherF> Yes
...: "Everyone get comments in by end of the week. Is that
enough time for the first draft?"
+1
<HeatherF> :-D
...: "In the following weeks we'll work towards documentation."
Liam: "When i get a chance, I'll add the properties in XSL-FO
that aren't yet in CSS"
Charles: "In reviewing the document - I see accessibility -
it's blank right now. Isn't that a big issue?"
... "With screen-readers and hyphenation - getting that
working..."
Dave: "That's also a question with initial letters, pseudo
elements - making sure ..."
...: "What sort of virtual elements..."
Tzviya: "We need to make sure WHAT we are working on is
accessible. We may not right it, but it may get passed to PF
for an accessibility review. Most of what we're asking for is
generated content - which is not accessibile."
<pkra> [18]http://bocoup.com/weblog/text-rendering/
[18] http://bocoup.com/weblog/text-rendering/
Peter: "I just was wondering what to do about the above issue.
Somebody analyzed that improving text rendering came with
significant performance. Even if we get issues into CSS, but
they aren't usable, that gives other issues..."
Dave: "On thing is we all have different use cases in different
environments. There are features that are not appropriate
because of context, etc. If readability is more important than
60FPS, we give authors tools so they can make tradeoffs
themselves."
Brady: "The performance issues are difficult to leave up to
publishers - a 2meg chapters, with optimized legibility and
pagination, it's hard to tell the publisher to worry about
that, or the reading system. Although not sure what CSS can
do."
changes to white paper
<tzviya>
[19]http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/#general-architecture-fo
r-portable-offline-and-online-states
[19]
http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/#general-architecture-for-portable-offline-and-online-states
<ivan> [20]http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/
[20] http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/
ivan: "I've made changes to the white-paper based on the
discussion on Cache - where some of us chimed in. I tried to
put the general ideas in there. Before I put that in the main
version, I'd like it to be reviewed."
<ivan>
[21]http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/#general-architecture-fo
r-online-offline-publications
...: "Actually that URI should be the right one. Please have a
look today - because things need time to be read by others."
[21]
http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/#general-architecture-for-online-offline-publications
<tzviya>
[22]http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-service-workers-20150625/
[22] http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-service-workers-20150625/
Tzviya: "Service workers is a first-public working draft."
+1
<HeatherF> +1
<pkra> +1
<tzviya> +1
<Karen> +1
<ivan> +1
<astearns> +1
<clapierre1> -1
<bjdmeest> +1
<Bert> +1
<dauwhe> +1 in some other time zone :)
tzviya: "Looking for comments on CSS prioritization and the
EPUB-WEB white paper - ASAP!!!!"
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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an pkra clapierre1 Luc duga astearns Ben_De_Meester Deborah_Kaplan Heath
er_Flanagan Liam_Quin Bert
Agenda: [26]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015J
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[26]
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Found Date: 29 Jun 2015
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[27] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-minutes.html
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Received on Monday, 29 June 2015 16:18:12 UTC