Re: report: iOS9 adds "print to PDF"

Android's book reader supports EPUB3. I have not run an exhaustive analysis
of it compared to Apple's but iBooks does a phenomenal job. My hat is off
to Apple. Also Google books are published in EPUB format.



Rich Schwerdtfeger



From: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>
To: Olaf Drümmer <olaf@druemmer.com>
Cc: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Bill Kasdorf
            <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>, Larry
            Masinter <masinter@adobe.com>, W3C Digital Publishing IG
            <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Date: 07/01/2015 02:00 PM
Subject: Re: report: iOS9 adds "print to PDF"



> Maybe it's a problem that PDF works essentially everywhere, whereas EPUB
hardly does?

Well, iOS and OSX ship with a pretty good epub2&3 viewer, iBooks.

> And that PDF could be made to work for people with special needs?

But do they? I don't have access to any samples.

> And how many websites are out there that really use MathML (as opposed to
images of formulas with some Alt attached to them).

Many. Anybody who's serious about math and science, really. From STEM
publishers like IEEE to platforms like StackExchange, from individual
researchers to MOOCs, from educational publishers like Pearson to blogging
teachers, from computational software like iPython Notebooks and MatLab to
encyclopedias like, well, Wikipedia (thought arguably not yet the default).

> [...] why it's not good enough for 'mobile'.

Because it throws away most of the information; imho, that's fine for
printing but not much beyond that.

>  How realistic is it that a sizeable number of users will actually use
EPUB3 (including having access to 'real' EPUB3 reading systems,
availability publications in EPUB3, and so forth)?

Apple ships a good epub viewer on all products. They also don't seem to
care about other platforms, cf. the iBooks Author format.

> why is there no decent, readily available web page to EPUB3 converter at
all?

A google search turns up a few options. Sure they are not perfect, but
neither are PDF generators (though arguably those they'll screw up
different things). I would say Calibre has comparable (yet different)
quality to print-to-pdf from browsers. Perhaps all it takes is an epub
equivalent of print stylesheets to improve the situation quickly (though
print stylesheets are probably a good start for epub generation, too).

Anyway, I don't have any issue with having a PDF generator around; it just
doesn't knock me off my feet.
Peter.


On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Olaf Drümmer <olaf@druemmer.com> wrote:
  Maybe it's a problem that PDF works essentially everywhere, whereas EPUB
  hardly does? And that PDF could be made to work for people with special
  needs? And how many websites are out there that really use MathML (as
  opposed to images of formulas with some Alt attached to them). If PDF is
  used on let's say an iPad and the PDF is captured at the same 'form
  factor' as when it is being displayed on the iPad, I have difficulty
  seeing why it's not good enough for 'mobile'.

  Maybe there should be more considerations of the combination of
  relevance AND feasibility? How realistic is it that a sizeable number of
  users will actually use EPUB3 (including having access to 'real' EPUB3
  reading systems, availability publications in EPUB3, and so forth)? PDF
  does have the advantage of being relatively widely available, serving
  over 95% of users well enough for all practical purposes. It took PDF
  over 20 years to get there. Currently EPUB3 is where PDF was ca. 2 or 3
  years into its existence. How do we deal with the other 17 years it might
  need to establish EPUB3 in the same manner?

  And: There is one question that really keeps me thinking - and I have yet
  to find a good / satisfactory answer: why is there no decent, readily
  available web page to EPUB3 converter at all? Especially if/as EPUB3
  could be described as a packaged web page/site… Or am I missing
  something?  Or is it too early in the game/am I being too impatient?

  Olaf


  On 1 Jul 2015, at 19:49, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:



        They should have done save to EPUB3 as it is packaged. As you point
        out, PDF is not the best format for mobile. Also IBook author can
        import EPUB3. From an accessibility perspective it is more than
        just tagged PDF that is important. It is also access to digital
        math to allow for alternative renderings for blind, low vision,
        attention deficit, situational impairments, and dyslexic users.

        Print fidelity is nice but, today, it is about supporting a broader
        range of users and also due to the uptake of mobile devices in
        education inclusive access is much more important.


        Rich Schwerdtfeger

        <graycol.gif>Bill Kasdorf ---07/01/2015 12:13:27 PM---Two comments:
        Yes, it's the structure that's the main issue—and the structure
        expressed in a standar




        From: Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
        To: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>, Larry
        Masinter <masinter@adobe.com>, W3C Digital Publishing IG <
        public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
        Cc: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
        Date: 07/01/2015 12:13 PM
        Subject: RE: report: iOS9 adds "print to PDF"





        Two comments:

        Yes, it's the structure that's the main issue—and the structure
        expressed in a standard way (i.e., HTML5). That's also
        fundamentally important for accessibility. So "Save as HTML + CSS"
        is way better than an alternative "save as X" imo, unless the "X"
        is EPUB 3, which would be optimal.

        The other point is that unless I'm not up-to-date on this (and I
        may not be), I would be cautious about Apple's iBooks Author format
        because at least wrt the use of Author itself, I believe there are
        restrictions on how those files can be distributed and sold (e.g.,
        limited to iBooks). I would love to be informed that that's no
        longer the case.

        --Bill K

        From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org]
        Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 2:59 AM
        To: Larry Masinter; W3C Digital Publishing IG
        Cc: Ivan Herman
        Subject: Re: report: iOS9 adds "print to PDF"

        > Serious question: if it was “Save as HTML + CSS” or “save as X”
        for
        > any other X, would you be less sad, and why?

        Top of my list would be epub3,  but Apple's iBooks Author format
        would make sense.

        Given the quality of the website-to-epub generators I've
        encountered, that seems like a much harder problem. But even a
        non-optimal solution might provide a better experience than a
        page-sized PDF on small screen. In combination with something like
        readability/pocket/etc or "save selection", the content could even
        shine.

        > What data would you have in other formats that you don’t have for
        PDF?

        I suppose that comes down to the quality of the files, i.e.,
        whether they are "plain old" PDFs (glyphs on a canvas) or pdf/a or
        even using Flash/JS/etc to represent more complex content. Assuming
        it's just glyphs with positions, then it seems to me almost all
        markup is lost whereas HTML/CSS-based formats like epub and iBA can
        retain parts of the original structure.

        Don't get me wrong, I understand why one would ship a PDF generator
        (i.e., for all the usual reasons); but it doesn't stop me from
        wondering if whoever decided that this is a good feature for mobile
        devices also thought: "but really, we need a better way".

        Peter.



        On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 12:42 AM, Larry Masinter <
        masinter@adobe.com> wrote:
        Serious question: if it was “Save as HTML + CSS” or “save as X” for
        any other X, would you be less sad, and why?

        What data would you have in other formats that you don’t have for
        PDF?

        Seriously. It’s really hard to get down to requirements.


        On 6/27/15, 8:48 AM, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org> wrote:

        Me too...

        Ivan

        ---
        Ivan Herman
        Tel:+31 641044153
        http://www.ivan-herman.net


        (Written on mobile, sorry for brevity and misspellings...)



        On 27 Jun 2015, at 16:15, Peter Krautzberger <
        peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org> wrote:
              Just something I came across,
              https://twitter.com/fakebaldur/status/614794685559742464


              Quote: "It’s particularly useful for webpages, since it keeps
              all the text, and makes it searchable and copyable unlike,
              say, taking a screenshot."

              I admit this makes me somewhat sad :-(
              Peter.