RE: Footnote discussions

I would definitely like to participate in this discussion.

For starters, I will point out a few issues I think are important to understand. (Note that I stopped short of saying "to address.")

Fundamentally, in publishing, "footnote" has a specifically positional implication (which I'm sure those reading this will think, as I do, that that is really a rendering/presentation issue). It is always at the bottom of something. But it is NOT always a "floating" element (<aside> in HTML5 terms). Most footnotes are; and in print they are expected to render at the bottoms of pages. But electronically they may pop up on mouseover or whatever and be indistinguishable from endnotes, which commonly have the same behavior. It is still important to distinguish them, though, because many books have both. Plus there is a third: marginal notes. (I'm sure there are more, but those are the three really common types.)

Especially in scholarly publications, it is not at all uncommon for a book to have all three: footnotes, endnotes, and marginal notes. Fundamentally, they are all notes. In print, the distinction—as I said at the outset—is about position. But in practice, in a given book, that positional distinction is used to reflect a semantic distinction. For example, in a textual edition (which means a historical text with editorial annotations, commentary, and scholarly stuff), marginal notes may be used to explicate an obscure or foreign word in the text; footnotes might carry editorial commentary on the text; and endnotes might be used for what is called the "scholarly apparatus," bibliographic and textual details.

However, there is nothing fixed about those distinctions; any type of note can be used for any of those purposes (or others), and it is even quite common for one type of note to be used for more than one, with the distinction being the marker used to call out and designate the note: for example, an editorial note using asterisks/daggers etc. and scholarly footnotes using numbers. Anyone interested in seeing a good example of an unusually pesky and complicated system of footnoting is directed to Harvard's Loeb Classical Library (which involves side-by-side and even line-by-line translations on facing "pages"). I can provide examples if desired.

One other thing that is typical (but not universal) about these kinds of footnotes is that they are linked to a callout in the text. I could see that being a fundamental aspect of the definition we might want to move toward. That seems more fundamental about a "footnote" than the positioning; in fact, that seems fundamental of a type of note, which then should be further characterized, when appropriate, by a positional modifier. But there are other types of notes, like warnings and notices in text, that don't have that characteristic.

The reason I say that is not universal is tied to why I said "the bottom of something" at the outset. While what we typically think of as footnotes are at the bottom of a page (and thus are "floats"), figures and tables often have footnotes that do not float; they are at a fixed position below the figure or table and are considered (in any markup scheme I do these days) considered part of <figure> (including <figure class="table">) in HTML5 terms. Further complicating that is that figures and tables can have what I would consider genuine footnotes (i.e., there is a marker within the figure or table corresponding to the same marker at the beginning of the footnote) but also other types of bottom-of-figure-or-table notes like source notes, credits, etc.

I hope this is helpful. At least it is helpful in maintaining my reputation for always trying to make things as complicated as possible. ;-)

--Bill Kasdorf

From: George Kerscher [mailto:kerscher@montana.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2015 1:43 PM
To: 'Shane McCarron'; 'Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken'
Cc: public-digipub-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: Footnote discussions

Hi,

Great to see footnotes/ endnotes  is of interest to the HTML working group. From the HTML5 specs we have:
Details
In printed documents, the type of tangential content that the aside element represents is sometimes formatted as a sidebar or annotation or footnote.
http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/aside.html


However,  there should be three separate elements and having the aside for asides and notes for footnotes and endnotes seems right. Of course there is work on annotations now that is also in play.
David Mcdonalds article sseems close. I would expect that following the EPUB 3 usage would be good, but elevating note to an element.

Best
George





From: ahby@aptest.com<mailto:ahby@aptest.com> [mailto:ahby@aptest.com] On Behalf Of Shane McCarron
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2015 9:45 AM
To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
Cc: public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Footnote discussions

Not that I know of.  David MacDonald has done some early work and has a good article about it at http://davidmacd.com/blog/html51-footnotes.html


I think our goal in the A11Y Task Force right now is to gather requirements and even potential solutions, then get to the formal text for the HTML 5.1 recommendation (and potentially a push of a role or roles / states / properties into ARIA 1.1).

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>> wrote:
Hi Shane,

Is there a working definition of the footnote element? I think it would be helpful to have some preliminary discussion on the list about this. If there is not a definition, I think we might be able to help with it.

Thanks,
Tzviya

****************************
Tzviya Siegman * Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead * John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
111 River Street, MS 5-02 * Hoboken, NJ 07030-5774 * 201-748-6884<tel:201-748-6884> * tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: ahby@aptest.com<mailto:ahby@aptest.com> [mailto:ahby@aptest.com<mailto:ahby@aptest.com>] On Behalf Of Shane McCarron
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2015 11:06 AM
To: public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Subject: Footnote discussions

The HTML Accessibility Task Force has asked me to try to get input from DPub on the introduction of a footnote element (presumably for HTML 5.1).  This would be in the context of things like requirements, default role, etc.  They are looking for this input in the next two weeks.  Is there a way we could schedule some time to discuss it?  If, as I assume, that this group has opinions.

--
Shane McCarron
Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.



--
Shane McCarron
Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.