# Re: "Scholarly HTML" and science.ai

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:44:01 +0100
Cc: Dave Cramer <Dave.Cramer@hbgusa.com>, Charles LaPierre <charlesl@benetech.org>, W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Message-Id: <8458F6AF-8B62-441C-989E-BD6A67712C91@w3.org>
To: Bill McCoy <bmccoy@idpf.org>

> On 14 Dec 2015, at 20:35, Bill McCoy <bmccoy@idpf.org> wrote:
>
> "vernacular" may not be quite the right term but... while some of the proposed Scholarly HTML is arguably specific to that domain, much of it, such as the "hunks" stuff, seems to have nothing to do with scholarly-publishing-specific requirements. There also seems to be significant overlap with the Structural Semantics Profile [1] that has been developed by IDPF and the EDUPUB Alliance as part of the EPUB for Education initiative (aka EDUPUB) as well as the Content Structure section of the EDUPUB profile itself [2]. These have also been recognized as not necessarily learning-content-specific but valuable for any content that wants to be well-structured (in particular that can be assured to be accessible) so it's now in the process of being generalized as part of EPUB 3.1 [3]. The realization was that stuff that is really about making well-structured content - not about the vertical of education content - should really be part of EPUB itself (even if something is not normatively required to be legal EPUB it may be required to be certifiably accessible EPUB and thus we are thinking that for EPUB 3.1 such things should be SHOULDs where sensible). I don't see why it would make sense for PWP to reverse course on that.

I do not think PWP would 'reverse' that, but I am not sure it should address that.

At least… there is a difference, if one think of terms of standards, between normative and non-normative aspects. Providing a sound set of 'advices' on well structured documents makes of course a lot of sense. Ie, having such a document is good but what I do not see is why this would be normative. When defining something like PWP, I believe that we should be as open ended as possible, and include normative requirements when it is technically absolutely necessary.

Of course, 'profiles', or 'vernaculars' may be different because the idea is to address a specific community, a specific market.

>
> So I hope that we can both harmonize any redundancy between the new Scholarly HTML initiative and work that's gone on as part of EDUPUB, as well as appropriately pull out broadly useful features from both efforts into base specs, in the interests of maximizing accessibility and interoperability and minimizing bikeshedding.
>

Sure. But, for the time being, the Scholarly HTML work is 'just' a community group, ie, it is not a formal standardization activity. EDUPUB is much more formal than that. It is certainly a good idea, though, to draw attention at the EDUPUB document to the Scholarly HTML group; I will do that.

Ivan

> --Bill
>
> [1] http://www.idpf.org/epub/profiles/edu/structure/ <http://www.idpf.org/epub/profiles/edu/structure/>
> [2] http://www.idpf.org/epub/profiles/edu/spec/#h.selsibtnscc8 <http://www.idpf.org/epub/profiles/edu/spec/#h.selsibtnscc8>
> [3] http://www.idpf.org/workplans/2015/epub/ <http://www.idpf.org/workplans/2015/epub/>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 8:31 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org <mailto:ivan@w3.org>> wrote:
>
>> On 14 Dec 2015, at 17:01, Cramer, Dave <Dave.Cramer@hbgusa.com <mailto:Dave.Cramer@hbgusa.com>> wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org <mailto:ivan@w3.org>> wrote:
>>
>>>> On 14 Dec 2015, at 16:40, Charles LaPierre <charlesl@benetech.org <mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> http://scholarly.vernacular.io <http://scholarly.vernacular.io/> and https://science.ai <https://science.ai/>
>>
>>
>>> Robin Berjon (one of the co-authors of that paper) has started a W3C Community Group on scholarly HTML:
>>>
>>> https://www.w3.org/community/scholarlyhtml/ <https://www.w3.org/community/scholarlyhtml/>
>>>
>>> it is still in its early days, but it may be very interesting on long term.
>>>
>>> Not sure yet how it will fit into PWP. In some sense, it may be orthogonal to PWP in the sense that what it tries to do is to define an HTML profile for scholarly publishing, to be used for particular use cases. These profiles, obviously, would fit PWP, too, but I do not believe it would create new requirements for it.
>>
>> I think of the idea of a "vernacular" itself [1] is quite applicable. Our mission is to use HTML for publications. In order to make such publications more readable, more accessible, and more meaningful, we are likely to use HTML in specific ways. A good example is requiring a nav file. This idea of a vernacular has certainly helped me clarify my thinking on EPUB Zero as defined in the Readme [2]
>
> I must admit I did not know the vernacular itself, only the scholarly HTML stuff.
>
> Whether vernacular is necessary for PWP as a whole: I am not sure, that is to be seen. I fully agree that for specific areas (like scholarly HTML) defining a vernacular is probably a good idea (that is where the CG is going). And there may be similar issues for defining, say, legal publications. But all those are, or I believe should be, independent from the general approach on PWP which should try to be as non-restrictive as possible…
>
> But practice will tell. In any case, it *is* an interesting document, that is for sure!
>
> Thanks
>
> Ivan
>
>
>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> [1] http://vernacular.io <http://vernacular.io/>
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>
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> Ivan Herman, W3C
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> --
>
> Bill McCoy
> Executive Director
> International Digital Publishing Forum (IDPF)
> email: bmccoy@idpf.org <mailto:bmccoy@idpf.org>
> mobile: +1 206 353 0233
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Ivan Herman, W3C