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Re: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF wiki

From: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@bell.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 14:04:41 -0400
Message-ID: <BLU437-SMTP79B8C2493BE19608538F0DFAFC0@phx.gbl>
To: "Bill Kasdorf" <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>, "Nick Ruffilo" <nickruffilo@gmail.com>, "Dave Cramer" <dauwhe@gmail.com>
CC: "AUDRAIN LUC" <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org>, "Stein, Ayla" <astein@illinois.edu>, "Thierry Michel" <tmichel@w3.org>, "W3C Digital Publishing IG" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
A few points:
  a.. epub uses the epub:type value “pagebreak” to identify the elements (the id name isn’t the indicator) 
  b.. epub also requires @title for a human-readable value (for announcement by AT) 
  c.. the use of <a> for pagebreaks isn’t ideal. A page break not a link to anywhere and never will be. A span is more typical.
I’d also hate to think we need more markers in digital. CFIs, while unwieldy to write, at least go in the right direction in getting away from reliance on the presence of IDs + empty elements. They can also represent ranges better than having to insert two markers, or whatever ugliness that takes.

ID-based markers are useful in the print/digital lookup scenario noted, and they’ll have life until a better/simpler method of identifying locations comes along, but they’re still god-awful things.

You’d think in a digital world we could pull out/identify/highlight any passage of text we want, not be as functionally useless to readers as page numbers. But here we are...


From: Bill Kasdorf 
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 1:32 PM
To: Nick Ruffilo ; Dave Cramer 
Cc: AUDRAIN LUC ; Ivan Herman ; Stein, Ayla ; Thierry Michel ; W3C Digital Publishing IG 
Subject: RE: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF wiki

Precisely! Thanks.


When people respond by saying, wrt pointing just to the start of the print page on which the thing you really mean occurs (the thing the index entry means, the thing the cross reference is referencing, etc.), "what the heck good is that?", I point out that that is precisely all that those things have ever done in print. J They just say "somewhere between this point, where page 53 begins, and the next such milestone marker, which says where page 54 begins . . . somewhere between those two markers is the thing I'm trying to direct your attention to." So using them is regrettably no better, but at least no worse, than what they've always done.


--Bill K


From: Nick Ruffilo [mailto:nickruffilo@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 1:25 PM
To: Dave Cramer
Cc: AUDRAIN LUC; Ivan Herman; Bill Kasdorf; Stein, Ayla; Thierry Michel; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF wiki


My apologies if this has been asked before, but is there a generic "milestone" type ID?  Ultimately that's what a page-number is.  The same way a section heading, or chapter is a chunk identifier, a page is ALSO a chunk identifier.  The fact that the context is related to a concept foreign to screens (or at least, difficult to understand when it comes to screens) if you think of it as a "physical_page_number" as opposed to just "page_number" the conceptual chunk because significantly clearer and more meaningful.


If this doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try to word it elsewise.




On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:41 PM, AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr> wrote:

  In EPUB3 files, HTML content is tagged with empty anchors like :
  "Ils n¹en veulent pas, ils n¹en <a id="page_182"/>veulent pas, elle lâche
  dans un soupir en attrapant encore une lettre."

  This means that a new paper page starts at word « veulent ».

  In parallel, the EPUB3 nav document contains an ordered list of navigation
  points in a <nav epub:type="page-list »> element :
     <a href="chap22.html#page_182">Page 182</a>
  Then the label of this paper page 182 is « Page 182 ».

  In term of worflow, by good practice, we produced a new EPUB file as soon
  as text corrections have been inserted in the reprint book.



In EPUB3, there's metadata that should indicate which print edition the pagination information is taken from [1]:


<dc:source id="src-id">urn:isbn:9780375704024</dc:source>    <meta refines="#src-id" property="identifier-type" scheme="onix:codelist5">15</meta> <meta refines="#src-id" property="source-of">pagination</meta>




[1] http://www.idpf.org/epub/301/spec/epub-publications.html#sec-opf-dcsource 




- Nick Ruffilo




Received on Wednesday, 8 April 2015 18:05:10 UTC

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