RE: Liza's review of Pages EPUB export

I think we're all losing sight of what's really important. This is an example of fragmentainor to fragmentainor conversion. Perfect example for CSS WG.

****************************
Tzviya Siegman * Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead * John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
111 River Street, MS 5-02 * Hoboken, NJ 07030-5774 * 201-748-6884 * tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: AUDRAIN LUC [mailto:LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 1:59 PM
To: Markus Gylling; Bill Kasdorf
Cc: Liza Daly; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; George Walkley; Belfanti, Paul; Livio Mondini; Ivan Herman; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: Liza's review of Pages EPUB export

Hi,
I confirm it is EPUB3 now, at least on may Macbook Pro in Maveriks (10.9.5), and as Pages opens any Word document, you have a Word to EPUB path...
Luc


De : Markus Gylling <markus.gylling@gmail.com<mailto:markus.gylling@gmail.com>>
Date : mercredi 19 novembre 2014 18:43
À : Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com<mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>>
Cc : Liza Daly <liza@safaribooksonline.com<mailto:liza@safaribooksonline.com>>, "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>, George Walkley <george.walkley@hachette.co.uk<mailto:george.walkley@hachette.co.uk>>, "Belfanti, Paul" <paul.belfanti@pearson.com<mailto:paul.belfanti@pearson.com>>, Livio Mondini <l.mondini@webprofession.com<mailto:l.mondini@webprofession.com>>, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>>, W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Objet : Re: Liza's review of Pages EPUB export
Renvoyer - De : <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Renvoyer - Date : mercredi 19 novembre 2014 18:43

According to some sources, its EPUB3 now, not 2:
http://www.macworld.com/article/2140800/making-ebooks-in-pages-5-2-heres-what-works-now-and-what-still-doesnt.html

I have not reviewed the tool either btw so dont take my word for it...

/markus

[cid:image001.jpg@01D0042A.C539C720]
Bill Kasdorf<mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
19 Nov 2014 17:09
Go for it!! ;-)

And please let us know when you've done that! In the meantime, the fact that this is an EPUB 2 export that is quite decent is still very useful, especially for the types of documents typically authored in Pages.

From: Liza Daly [mailto:liza@safaribooksonline.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 11:07 AM
To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
Cc: Bill Kasdorf; George Walkley; Belfanti, Paul; Livio Mondini; Ivan Herman; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: Liza's review of Pages EPUB export

Ha! I don't mind revising it; it's amazingly old.

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>> wrote:
It's important to note that Liza wrote this before EPUB 3 existed.  One of us should take a closer look at this with EPUB 3+ eyes. I'm sure Liza and I have a lot of spare time to do this together :).

****************************
Tzviya Siegman * Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead * John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
111 River Street, MS 5-02 * Hoboken, NJ 07030-5774 * 201-748-6884<tel:201-748-6884> * tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Bill Kasdorf [mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com<mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:41 AM
To: George Walkley; Belfanti, Paul; Livio Mondini
Cc: Ivan Herman; W3C Digital Publishing IG; 'liza@safaribooksonline.com<mailto:liza@safaribooksonline.com>'
Subject: RE: Liza's review of Pages EPUB export

Thanks too for this-this link is going in my presentation (and its accompanying report) too.

Also note how key the style names are. This is fundamental. It's why when I work on modeling for clients I start way upstream with the vocabulary for the components. You want to retain that all through the workflow as much as possible, starting with editing. You wouldn't believe how much easier this makes everything.

Which gets us right into our structural semantics vs. content semantics discussion. Liza's example of the behavior associated with the Chapter Name style  (wrt chunking, NCX, nav, toc, etc.) vs. the behavior associated with the Chapter Subtitle style couldn't be a clearer example.

Copying Liza because her ears must be burning.

Thanks, Liza!

--Bill K

From: George Walkley [mailto:george.walkley@hachette.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:41 AM
To: Belfanti, Paul; Livio Mondini
Cc: Ivan Herman; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: An unexpected usage of EPUB:-)

@liza took a look at this when the feature was first introduced:

https://blog.safaribooksonline.com/2010/08/26/test-driving-apple-pages-with-epub-export/


From: <Belfanti>, Paul <paul.belfanti@pearson.com<mailto:paul.belfanti@pearson.com>>
Date: Wednesday, 19 November 2014 13:49
To: Livio Mondini <l.mondini@webprofession.com<mailto:l.mondini@webprofession.com>>
Cc: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>>, W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: An unexpected usage of EPUB:-)
Resent-From: <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, 19 November 2014 13:50

And does it generate a valid EPUB 3? One that would pass epubcheck?

Either way, it's good/interesting news.

Paul
--
Paul Belfanti
Director, Content Architecture
Core Platforms & Enterprise Architecture
office: +1 201-236-7746<tel:%2B1%20201-236-7746>
mobile: +1 201-783-4884<tel:%2B1%20201-783-4884>

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:25 AM, Livio Mondini <l.mondini@webprofession.com<mailto:l.mondini@webprofession.com>> wrote:
I agree, many blind people that i know do the same finding much more confortable with HTML. But have you looked at what sort of html Pages generate?
Livio

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>> wrote:
I realized today a strange thing when using Mac' Pages program (that is a Word-like program for Mac, produced by Apple, although infinitely simpler than Word). Pages has various export functionalities. To my surprise, it does not have an HTML export; to my even greater (and pleasant) surprise, it has an EPUB export. Which makes sense if the document contains drawings, for example.

This is pretty much in line with our thoughts on epub.next, and also has a side effect. If one wants simply an HTML from a text only page, then generate the EPUB, unzip it, and there you have the HTML...

:-)

Ivan

----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153<tel:%2B31-641044153>
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704







Click here<https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/MZbqvYs5QwJvpeaetUwhCQ==> to report this email as spam.


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[cid:image002.jpg@01D0042A.C539C720]
Liza Daly<mailto:liza@safaribooksonline.com>
19 Nov 2014 17:06
Ha! I don't mind revising it; it's amazingly old.

[cid:image001.jpg@01D0042A.C539C720]
Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>
19 Nov 2014 16:55
It's important to note that Liza wrote this before EPUB 3 existed.  One of us should take a closer look at this with EPUB 3+ eyes. I'm sure Liza and I have a lot of spare time to do this together :).

****************************
Tzviya Siegman * Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead * John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
111 River Street, MS 5-02 * Hoboken, NJ 07030-5774 * 201-748-6884 * tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Bill Kasdorf [mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:41 AM
To: George Walkley; Belfanti, Paul; Livio Mondini
Cc: Ivan Herman; W3C Digital Publishing IG; 'liza@safaribooksonline.com<mailto:liza@safaribooksonline.com>'
Subject: RE: Liza's review of Pages EPUB export

Thanks too for this-this link is going in my presentation (and its accompanying report) too.

Also note how key the style names are. This is fundamental. It's why when I work on modeling for clients I start way upstream with the vocabulary for the components. You want to retain that all through the workflow as much as possible, starting with editing. You wouldn't believe how much easier this makes everything.

Which gets us right into our structural semantics vs. content semantics discussion. Liza's example of the behavior associated with the Chapter Name style  (wrt chunking, NCX, nav, toc, etc.) vs. the behavior associated with the Chapter Subtitle style couldn't be a clearer example.

Copying Liza because her ears must be burning.

Thanks, Liza!

--Bill K

From: George Walkley [mailto:george.walkley@hachette.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:41 AM
To: Belfanti, Paul; Livio Mondini
Cc: Ivan Herman; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: An unexpected usage of EPUB:-)

@liza took a look at this when the feature was first introduced:

https://blog.safaribooksonline.com/2010/08/26/test-driving-apple-pages-with-epub-export/


From: <Belfanti>, Paul <paul.belfanti@pearson.com<mailto:paul.belfanti@pearson.com>>
Date: Wednesday, 19 November 2014 13:49
To: Livio Mondini <l.mondini@webprofession.com<mailto:l.mondini@webprofession.com>>
Cc: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>>, W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: An unexpected usage of EPUB:-)
Resent-From: <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, 19 November 2014 13:50

And does it generate a valid EPUB 3? One that would pass epubcheck?

Either way, it's good/interesting news.

Paul
--
Paul Belfanti
Director, Content Architecture
Core Platforms & Enterprise Architecture
office: +1 201-236-7746
mobile: +1 201-783-4884

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:25 AM, Livio Mondini <l.mondini@webprofession.com<mailto:l.mondini@webprofession.com>> wrote:
I agree, many blind people that i know do the same finding much more confortable with HTML. But have you looked at what sort of html Pages generate?
Livio

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>> wrote:
I realized today a strange thing when using Mac' Pages program (that is a Word-like program for Mac, produced by Apple, although infinitely simpler than Word). Pages has various export functionalities. To my surprise, it does not have an HTML export; to my even greater (and pleasant) surprise, it has an EPUB export. Which makes sense if the document contains drawings, for example.

This is pretty much in line with our thoughts on epub.next, and also has a side effect. If one wants simply an HTML from a text only page, then generate the EPUB, unzip it, and there you have the HTML...

:-)

Ivan

----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153<tel:%2B31-641044153>
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704








Click here<https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/MZbqvYs5QwJvpeaetUwhCQ==> to report this email as spam.


For company information please visit http://www.hachette.co.uk<http://www.hachette.co.uk/> or write to:

Hachette UK Limited, 338 Euston Road, London, NW1 3BH. Registered in England and Wales under company no. 2020173.
[cid:image001.jpg@01D0042A.C539C720]
Bill Kasdorf<mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
19 Nov 2014 16:41
Thanks too for this-this link is going in my presentation (and its accompanying report) too.

Also note how key the style names are. This is fundamental. It's why when I work on modeling for clients I start way upstream with the vocabulary for the components. You want to retain that all through the workflow as much as possible, starting with editing. You wouldn't believe how much easier this makes everything.

Which gets us right into our structural semantics vs. content semantics discussion. Liza's example of the behavior associated with the Chapter Name style  (wrt chunking, NCX, nav, toc, etc.) vs. the behavior associated with the Chapter Subtitle style couldn't be a clearer example.

Copying Liza because her ears must be burning.

Thanks, Liza!

--Bill K

From: George Walkley [mailto:george.walkley@hachette.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:41 AM
To: Belfanti, Paul; Livio Mondini
Cc: Ivan Herman; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: An unexpected usage of EPUB:-)

@liza took a look at this when the feature was first introduced:

https://blog.safaribooksonline.com/2010/08/26/test-driving-apple-pages-with-epub-export/


From: <Belfanti>, Paul <paul.belfanti@pearson.com<mailto:paul.belfanti@pearson.com>>
Date: Wednesday, 19 November 2014 13:49
To: Livio Mondini <l.mondini@webprofession.com<mailto:l.mondini@webprofession.com>>
Cc: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>>, W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: An unexpected usage of EPUB:-)
Resent-From: <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, 19 November 2014 13:50

And does it generate a valid EPUB 3? One that would pass epubcheck?

Either way, it's good/interesting news.

Paul
--
Paul Belfanti
Director, Content Architecture
Core Platforms & Enterprise Architecture
office: +1 201-236-7746
mobile: +1 201-783-4884

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:25 AM, Livio Mondini <l.mondini@webprofession.com<mailto:l.mondini@webprofession.com>> wrote:
I agree, many blind people that i know do the same finding much more confortable with HTML. But have you looked at what sort of html Pages generate?
Livio

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>> wrote:
I realized today a strange thing when using Mac' Pages program (that is a Word-like program for Mac, produced by Apple, although infinitely simpler than Word). Pages has various export functionalities. To my surprise, it does not have an HTML export; to my even greater (and pleasant) surprise, it has an EPUB export. Which makes sense if the document contains drawings, for example.

This is pretty much in line with our thoughts on epub.next, and also has a side effect. If one wants simply an HTML from a text only page, then generate the EPUB, unzip it, and there you have the HTML...

:-)

Ivan

----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153<tel:%2B31-641044153>
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704









Click here<https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/MZbqvYs5QwJvpeaetUwhCQ==> to report this email as spam.


For company information please visit http://www.hachette.co.uk<http://www.hachette.co.uk/> or write to:

Hachette UK Limited, 338 Euston Road, London, NW1 3BH. Registered in England and Wales under company no. 2020173.