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RE: Summary of yesterday's meeting (Was Re: [Minutes] 2014-12-08 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference)

From: Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 19:07:55 +0000
To: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>, "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>
CC: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>, Thierry Michel <tmichel@w3.org>, "W3C Digital Publishing IG" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <CO2PR06MB572D7881179F60BA03E4ADCDF6F0@CO2PR06MB572.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
I would also add that it typically carries a connotation of "formal" and even "authoritative." The use cases you list are STEM use cases (mostly mathematical) but I have clients who use this for legal and other such formal statements, in JATS/BITS.
--Bill K

From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org]
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 12:08 PM
To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
Cc: Ivan Herman; Thierry Michel; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: Summary of yesterday's meeting (Was Re: [Minutes] 2014-12-08 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference)

Hi Tzviya,

> How do you recommend defining the term “statement”?

Ah, I had that coming ;-)  Yes, I'm not too happy with the JATS definition either. To quote for the list:

> [...] formal statement, identified as such with a label and usually made typographically distinct from the surrounding text.

Not too helpful but still the (print-)typographic pointer is useful, I think (while mainly irrelevant for web typography, imho).

Perhaps it helps to compare to HTML5 elements. It's somewhat like <figure> except it's more textual and never floating. It's a bit like <article> but it's not as self-contained (but like figures something you'd often want to reference or build an index). In many ways it meets the criteria of plain <section> (in particular, it often has a heading) but it feels a bit bit closer to an oustanding <p>.

So perhaps that's a good way of putting it: the intersection of <article>, <section> and <p>. Let me try then:

"A minor structural division of a piece of writing, typically encapsulated in a major one. A fragment that is part of the overall flow (i.e., not an aside) but is distinguished from the surrounding content (possibly typographically) and might be referenced elsewhere. In particular, a content fragment that might be aggregated in some form of index. Use cases are: Postulate, Hypothesis, Experiment, Result, Example, Definition, Proposition, Theorem/Lemma/Corollary, Proof."

HTML usage would be "section, grouping content", I think.

Best,
Peter.




On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>> wrote:
Hi Peter,

Thank you. We are definitely open to suggestions. The EPUB categories are more for my reference than formal use at this point.

I’m looking at the JATS definition of statement [1], and I’m having a little trouble writing a clean definition. (Please forgive my ignorance of the details of STEM markup). How do you recommend defining the term “statement”?

Thanks,
Tzviya

[1] http://jats.nlm.nih.gov/publishing/tag-library/0.4/n-2ne0.html


****************************
Tzviya Siegman * Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead * John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
111 River Street, MS 5-02 * Hoboken, NJ 07030-5774 * 201-748-6884<tel:201-748-6884> * tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org<mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>]
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 6:26 AM
To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
Cc: Ivan Herman; Thierry Michel; W3C Digital Publishing IG

Subject: Re: Summary of yesterday's meeting (Was Re: [Minutes] 2014-12-08 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference)

Thanks, Tzviya.

The role that came to mind first was something along the lines of statement (stealing the term from JATS).

Like "question", it groups content. Use cases are Postulate, Hypothesis, Experiment, Result, Example, Definition, Proposition, Theorem/Lemma/Corollary etc., Proof.

It seems to strike a good balance for grouping formally distinct fragments. (Then again, looking at the roles from EPUB category "testing" perhaps there's room for additional roles.)

Peer.

On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>> wrote:
Thanks, Peter.

I have moved the proposed vocabulary to our wiki [1]

[1] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/DPUBVocabulary


Thanks,
Tzviya

****************************
Tzviya Siegman * Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead * John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
111 River Street, MS 5-02 * Hoboken, NJ 07030-5774 * 201-748-6884<tel:201-748-6884> * tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org<mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>]
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 5:48 PM
To: Ivan Herman
Cc: Thierry Michel; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: Summary of yesterday's meeting (Was Re: [Minutes] 2014-12-08 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference)

Hi,

I was going through the minutes.

Is it just me or is the google doc locked in such a way that not all content is visible?

Also, how widely can we circulate this and how do we direct responses we get? (E.g., a few STEM-related additions come to mind.)

Best,
Peter.

On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>> wrote:
The summary of the meeting is here:

https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meeting_Summary_2014-12-08


Ivan


> On 09 Dec 2014, at 08:37 , Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org<mailto:tmichel@w3.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference dated 2014-12-08 are now available at
>
>    http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html

>
> These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
>    http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

>
> Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.
>
> Best,
>
> Thierry Michel
>
> ----------------------------
>
>   [1]W3C
>
>      [1] http://www.w3.org/

>
>            Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
>
> 08 Dec 2014
>
>   [2]Agenda
>
>      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html

>
>   See also: [3]IRC log
>
>      [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-irc

>
> Attendees
>
>   Present
>           George Kerscher (George_Kerscher), Deborah Kaplan
>          (dkaplan3),  Charles LaPierre (clapierre), MikeMiller
>          (MikeMiller),  Ivan Herman (Ivan),  Tzviya Siegman
>          (tzviya), Luc Audrain (Luc), Markus Gylling (Markus),
>          Vladimir Levantovsky (Vlad), Alan Stearns (Stearns),
>          Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Thierry Michel (tmichel),
>          Bert Bos (Bert), Julie Morris (Julie), Frederick Hirsch
>          (fjh), Ben De Meester (bjdmeest), Avneesh, Singh,
>          (DAISY), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Madi Solomon (madi)
>
>   Regrets
>          Peter Kreutzberger, David Stroup, Ayla Stein
>
>   Chair
>          Tzviya Siegman (tzviya)
>
>   Scribe
>          Dave Cramer (dauwhe)
>
> Contents
>
>     * [4]Topics
>         1. [5]longdesc
>     * [6]Summary of Action Items
>     __________________________________________________________
>
>   <trackbot> Date: 08 December 2014
>
>   <Vlad> Apologies, I have a conflict and will have to disconnect
>   in 1/2 hour
>
>   <scribe> scribenick: dauwhe
>
>   tzviya: we have some new people here today
>
>   George: I'm president of IDPF and Secretary-General of DAISY
>   ... working on epub issues
>
>   Avneesh: work for DAISY
>   ... also work on EPUB
>
>   <tzviya> [7]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

>
>      [7] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

>
>   tzviya: review minutes from last week
>   ... any comments?
>
>   <tzviya> [8]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html

>
>      [8] http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html

>
>   tzviya: we also had short minutes for the first time
>
>   mgylling: we're doing short minutes until further notice?
>
>   tzviya: yes. lots of good feedback.
>
>   mgylling: Ivan has taken responsibility for short minutes?
>
>   ivan: yes
>
>   tzviya: if anyone wants to do them, Ivan would graciously
>   accept :)
>   ... first item is to review list of digital publishing terms to
>   present to PF
>   ... at TPAC we met with PF
>   ... about presenting a list of terms to put into an ARIA module
>   ... so we can have a structural semantic vocab for DPUB
>   ... Markus and I have worked through EPUB's vocab
>
>   <tzviya>
>   [9]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p

>   7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0
>
>      [9] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0

>
>   tzviya: the goal is to add to this list as needed
>   ... the definitions in this list will be cleaned up
>   ... sorry... document is not yet public
>   ... [working on making the document public]
>
>   <bjdmeest> this is the non-edit link (I think)
>   [10]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8

>   p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml
>
>     [10] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml

>
>   s/wizzard/wizard/
>
>   mgylling: this is a subset of epub structural semantic vocab
>
>   tzviya: we also have include/defer column here
>   ... some we might want to remove
>   ... category may or may not be relevant
>   ... we'll need some additional description before presenting to
>   ARIA
>   ... and we have a few notes about current relationships with
>   ARIA
>   ... for example, around notes/note
>   ... the existing list has 200 terms, this is less than 40
>   ... next step is to clean up, clarify definitions
>   ... then schedule meeting with PF
>   ... try to get this into module of ARIA
>   ... and, as always, volunteers are welcome
>
>   ivan: still digesting
>
>   mgylling: for context, terms that have been excluded in this
>   round
>   ... we expect to append to it in later cycles
>   ... PF wants to set up a more agile process for adding to ARIA
>   ... lots of terms are still in draft
>   ... including edu terms, comic terms, etc
>   ... we elected to wait on those
>
>   Bill_Kasdorf: are any of these draft status?
>
>   mgylling: I think only two
>
>   tzviya: two or three from the testing section
>   ... question and answer
>
>   Bill_Kasdorf: none from magazine vocab?
>
>   tzviya: no
>
>   mgylling: should we talk about staffing of task force?
>
>   ivan: will these be used as values of role attribute?
>   ... if I look at "usage" column
>
>   <tzviya>
>   <dc:source>[11]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/</sourc
>   e>
>
>     [11] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/

>
>   ivan: do we want to make a restriction on which HTML element
>   can be used for that specific value?
>
>   mgylling: on which element the value is expected to occur?
>
>   ivan: allowed
>
>   mgylling: we have epub definition of usage, which is
>   recommended, not required
>   ... we need to ARIA-ify these
>   ... will be put in same framework as existing ARIA roles
>   ... so we'll need to do same things ARIA already does for each
>   term
>
>   ivan: ARIA can define a restriction?
>
>   mgylling: yes
>   ... HTML5 may also have restrictions
>   ... right now we're working on the ARIA definitions
>   ... looking for an example now...
>
>   tzviya: the glossary terms are a good example
>   ... <dl role="glossary">
>   ... might restrict it to just that or might have <ul
>   role="glossary">
>
>   ivan: I don't know all the possible restrictions PF can set
>
>   tzviya: it's not just sending a list to PF, we should have a
>   task force with regular meetings
>   ... Markus and I will work on this, and we want volunteers to
>   join us
>
>   George: I've joined the PF list and am ready to participate
>
>   mgylling: They'll want to know who will chair or co-chair this
>   task force
>   ... if we could decide this today it would be good
>
>   Bill_Kasdorf: within the IG?
>
>   mgylling: Joint task force between DPUB and PF
>
>   ivan: at some point I did volunteer at TPAC to look at
>   OWL-specific things
>
>   tzviya: I'm happy to help out
>
>   mgylling: initially we can propose Markus and Tzviya as
>   co-chairs
>
>   tzviya: and thank you George
>
>   Bill_Kasdorf: yes
>
>   tzviya: any other questions about the progress of this task
>   force?
>
>   ivan: I want to understand whether we have a plan on the timing
>   and the road ahead
>   ... where are the bottlenecks?
>
>   tzviya: good question
>   ... we were the first big bottleneck
>   ... next phase is setting up task force meetings
>   ... holidays will complicate that
>   ... next bottleneck will be agreeing on definitions
>
>   mgylling: hard to predict how much time it will take to bless
>   and publish this
>
>   ivan: I felt that IDPF already has the definitions for these
>   terms
>   ... aren't they already there?
>
>   mgylling: they are our initial proposed definitions
>   ... but as we move into new context there may be an evolution
>
>   ivan: we do not start from scratch
>
>   tzviya: I'd like to get this to PF this week
>
>   ivan: their question will be
>   ... I don't know what you mean by SSV category
>
>   tzviya: I would like to get a cleaned-up version of this to PF
>   this week
>
>   <Vlad> sorry, have to disconnect now
>
>   tzviya: I'd like to have the task force meetings in December
>   ... want to get it moving this month
>   ... we'll have something to present to PF this week
>   ... we'll at least have a meeting scheduled soon
>   ... but much depends on how PF interprets this
>
>   <mgylling>
>   [12]http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/

>
>     [12] http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/

>
> longdesc
>
>   <mgylling> (AC only)
>   [13]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/

>
>     [13] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/

>
>   mgylling: here's the AC review link
>   ... we have been reminded that input from the publishing
>   community is desired
>   ... so how can we produce a review?
>   ... we need to poke all publisher W3C members to do this review
>
>   George: I was hoping to clarify in my mind the implications of
>   this
>   ... clarifying the usage, and then asking other w3c members to
>   comment
>
>   mgylling: in terms of clarifying the usage, can you rephrase as
>   question? This has been discussed for more than a decade
>
>   George: when a long desc is needed, such as "the Diagrammar", a
>   framework for making images accessible
>   ... when would you use long desc, and the other aspect is SVG,
>   how do we add enhancements to other elements other than just
>   the image?
>   ... this is just focused on image
>   ... there are other items that need a description
>   ... is the rec that there be a variety of techniques, depending
>   on the element? Like canvas...
>
>   mgylling: right
>   ... there is an attribute in ARIA 1.1 called described-at,
>   which takes a URL so you can point outside the doc
>   ... which is a more generic version of longdesc
>   ... longdesc is allowed on IMG and map only
>   ... so you're asking about what is the long-term vision
>
>   George: there's the political aspect
>   ... it's been a Herculean effort from them
>   ... just trying to get my head around all this
>
>   mgylling: it's safe to say that in PF strategy terms, longdesc
>   is intended to solve problems in the short term
>   ... while waiting for ARIA 1.1 to me mature
>
>   George: the techniques for exposing this attribute, in Firefox
>   it's a context menu item
>   ... I think the long term goal is good
>
>   mgylling: another thing on horizon is annotations
>   ... which can be used for a11y
>   ... with annotations, the pointing direction is reversed
>   ... it's good to have both described-at and annotations
>   ... that's the end point
>
>   ivan: I'm a bit bothered by what's happening in terms of
>   process
>   ... George is asking about long term
>   ... procedurally, at this point the only thing that members can
>   vote on
>   ... is essentially a yes or no, since this is already a PR
>   ... they may decide it's not to be a REC
>   ... but it is not at this stage that any technical comments
>   should occur
>   ... but we missed the boat
>   ... If publishers support this, that's a valuable message, as
>   there has been controversy
>
>   George: we supplied formal written comments a couple of years
>   ago
>
>   clapierre: a couple questions
>
>   <clapierre>
>   [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014A

>   ug/0028.html
>
>     [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0028.html

>
>   clapierre: first, here's Apple's formal objection
>   ... if this long description is pointing to a URL, how does
>   this work offline
>
>   <mgylling>
>   [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014O

>   ct/0099.html
>
>     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0099.html

>
>   mgylling: good questions
>   ... having monitored this for a decade, I'm lacking enthusiasm
>   to start into this again
>   ... it is what it is
>   ... the politics are so involved that technical merit
>   discussions are moot
>   ... it doesn't solve all problems, but solves some
>   ... but it's not the golden wrench
>   ... it's just one thing in the toolbox
>
>   clapierre: ARIA seems like the right approach
>   ... affects SVG, STEM...
>   ... it was rejected for HTML
>   ... will this get into a revision of HTML5 quicker than ARIA?
>
>   ivan: not sure how this is done editorially
>   ... it might be an extension
>
>   George: the politics here is that if DPUB or a number of
>   members come out against longdesc
>   ... the public would view this as the publishing industry not
>   wanting to support a11y
>   ... that would be the appearance of it
>   ... that's the wrong message
>   ... I don't think we could avoid that (mis)perception
>   ... if the group came out against longdesc
>
>   ivan: I understand
>   ... I don't want to evade the issue
>   ... but since we're in PR, this IG is not in position to be
>   pro/con
>   ... this is now in the hands of the individual members
>   ... it's way too late
>   ... it's out of the hands of the groups
>
>   tzviya: Let's remind people to review this, but it's not the
>   place of DPUB to say how to vote
>
>   mgylling: so we want to get the publishing industry to vote
>   ... It's a milestone, but it's not the endpoint
>   ... the more important question is what to do after longdesc?
>   ... participation in PF from publishing is low
>   ... maybe we should get more people to work on ARIA 1.1
>
>   George: participation in PF and ARIA is going to be important
>   ... also, the implementations of those features and functions
>   is important
>   ... like in Readium
>
>   Bill_Kasdorf: with regard to longdesc, what is the status of
>   implementation
>
>   mgylling: there is an implementation report published with the
>   provisional rec
>   ... we're poking AC reps...
>   ... how can we be more proactive moving forward, that's a
>   matter of resource assignment
>   ... so now's a good time for digital publishing to get involved
>   in ARIA
>
>   <mgylling> ack [IPcaller]
>
>   avnesh: what happens if review for longdesc is negative?
>
>   mgylling: what would we practically do?
>   ... epub 3.0.1 already allows aria described-at
>   ... we can't easily answer the question
>   ... any last questions?
>   ... thanks everyone
>
>   all: bye bye bye bye bye
>
>   <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
>   [End of minutes]
>     __________________________________________________________
>
>
>    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [16]scribe.perl version
>    1.140 ([17]CVS log)
>    $Date: 2014-12-09 07:36:01 $
>     __________________________________________________________
>
>     [16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

>     [17] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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>
>   [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
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> Found ScribeNick: dauwhe
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> Agenda: [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014De
> c/0001.html
>
>     [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html

>
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> Found Date: 08 Dec 2014
> Guessing minutes URL: [20]http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html
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>
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>
>
>


----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153<tel:%2B31-641044153>
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704

Received on Monday, 15 December 2014 19:08:26 UTC

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