RE: Summary of yesterday's meeting (Was Re: [Minutes] 2014-12-08 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference)

Thanks, Peter.

I have moved the proposed vocabulary to our wiki [1]

[1] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/DPUBVocabulary


Thanks,
Tzviya

****************************
Tzviya Siegman * Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead * John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
111 River Street, MS 5-02 * Hoboken, NJ 07030-5774 * 201-748-6884 * tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org]
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 5:48 PM
To: Ivan Herman
Cc: Thierry Michel; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: Summary of yesterday's meeting (Was Re: [Minutes] 2014-12-08 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference)

Hi,

I was going through the minutes.

Is it just me or is the google doc locked in such a way that not all content is visible?

Also, how widely can we circulate this and how do we direct responses we get? (E.g., a few STEM-related additions come to mind.)

Best,
Peter.

On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>> wrote:
The summary of the meeting is here:

https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meeting_Summary_2014-12-08


Ivan


> On 09 Dec 2014, at 08:37 , Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org<mailto:tmichel@w3.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference dated 2014-12-08 are now available at
>
>    http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html

>
> These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
>    http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

>
> Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.
>
> Best,
>
> Thierry Michel
>
> ----------------------------
>
>   [1]W3C
>
>      [1] http://www.w3.org/

>
>            Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
>
> 08 Dec 2014
>
>   [2]Agenda
>
>      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html

>
>   See also: [3]IRC log
>
>      [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-irc

>
> Attendees
>
>   Present
>           George Kerscher (George_Kerscher), Deborah Kaplan
>          (dkaplan3),  Charles LaPierre (clapierre), MikeMiller
>          (MikeMiller),  Ivan Herman (Ivan),  Tzviya Siegman
>          (tzviya), Luc Audrain (Luc), Markus Gylling (Markus),
>          Vladimir Levantovsky (Vlad), Alan Stearns (Stearns),
>          Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Thierry Michel (tmichel),
>          Bert Bos (Bert), Julie Morris (Julie), Frederick Hirsch
>          (fjh), Ben De Meester (bjdmeest), Avneesh, Singh,
>          (DAISY), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Madi Solomon (madi)
>
>   Regrets
>          Peter Kreutzberger, David Stroup, Ayla Stein
>
>   Chair
>          Tzviya Siegman (tzviya)
>
>   Scribe
>          Dave Cramer (dauwhe)
>
> Contents
>
>     * [4]Topics
>         1. [5]longdesc
>     * [6]Summary of Action Items
>     __________________________________________________________
>
>   <trackbot> Date: 08 December 2014
>
>   <Vlad> Apologies, I have a conflict and will have to disconnect
>   in 1/2 hour
>
>   <scribe> scribenick: dauwhe
>
>   tzviya: we have some new people here today
>
>   George: I'm president of IDPF and Secretary-General of DAISY
>   ... working on epub issues
>
>   Avneesh: work for DAISY
>   ... also work on EPUB
>
>   <tzviya> [7]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

>
>      [7] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

>
>   tzviya: review minutes from last week
>   ... any comments?
>
>   <tzviya> [8]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html

>
>      [8] http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html

>
>   tzviya: we also had short minutes for the first time
>
>   mgylling: we're doing short minutes until further notice?
>
>   tzviya: yes. lots of good feedback.
>
>   mgylling: Ivan has taken responsibility for short minutes?
>
>   ivan: yes
>
>   tzviya: if anyone wants to do them, Ivan would graciously
>   accept :)
>   ... first item is to review list of digital publishing terms to
>   present to PF
>   ... at TPAC we met with PF
>   ... about presenting a list of terms to put into an ARIA module
>   ... so we can have a structural semantic vocab for DPUB
>   ... Markus and I have worked through EPUB's vocab
>
>   <tzviya>
>   [9]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p

>   7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0
>
>      [9] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0

>
>   tzviya: the goal is to add to this list as needed
>   ... the definitions in this list will be cleaned up
>   ... sorry... document is not yet public
>   ... [working on making the document public]
>
>   <bjdmeest> this is the non-edit link (I think)
>   [10]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8

>   p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml
>
>     [10] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml

>
>   s/wizzard/wizard/
>
>   mgylling: this is a subset of epub structural semantic vocab
>
>   tzviya: we also have include/defer column here
>   ... some we might want to remove
>   ... category may or may not be relevant
>   ... we'll need some additional description before presenting to
>   ARIA
>   ... and we have a few notes about current relationships with
>   ARIA
>   ... for example, around notes/note
>   ... the existing list has 200 terms, this is less than 40
>   ... next step is to clean up, clarify definitions
>   ... then schedule meeting with PF
>   ... try to get this into module of ARIA
>   ... and, as always, volunteers are welcome
>
>   ivan: still digesting
>
>   mgylling: for context, terms that have been excluded in this
>   round
>   ... we expect to append to it in later cycles
>   ... PF wants to set up a more agile process for adding to ARIA
>   ... lots of terms are still in draft
>   ... including edu terms, comic terms, etc
>   ... we elected to wait on those
>
>   Bill_Kasdorf: are any of these draft status?
>
>   mgylling: I think only two
>
>   tzviya: two or three from the testing section
>   ... question and answer
>
>   Bill_Kasdorf: none from magazine vocab?
>
>   tzviya: no
>
>   mgylling: should we talk about staffing of task force?
>
>   ivan: will these be used as values of role attribute?
>   ... if I look at "usage" column
>
>   <tzviya>
>   <dc:source>[11]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/</sourc
>   e>
>
>     [11] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/

>
>   ivan: do we want to make a restriction on which HTML element
>   can be used for that specific value?
>
>   mgylling: on which element the value is expected to occur?
>
>   ivan: allowed
>
>   mgylling: we have epub definition of usage, which is
>   recommended, not required
>   ... we need to ARIA-ify these
>   ... will be put in same framework as existing ARIA roles
>   ... so we'll need to do same things ARIA already does for each
>   term
>
>   ivan: ARIA can define a restriction?
>
>   mgylling: yes
>   ... HTML5 may also have restrictions
>   ... right now we're working on the ARIA definitions
>   ... looking for an example now...
>
>   tzviya: the glossary terms are a good example
>   ... <dl role="glossary">
>   ... might restrict it to just that or might have <ul
>   role="glossary">
>
>   ivan: I don't know all the possible restrictions PF can set
>
>   tzviya: it's not just sending a list to PF, we should have a
>   task force with regular meetings
>   ... Markus and I will work on this, and we want volunteers to
>   join us
>
>   George: I've joined the PF list and am ready to participate
>
>   mgylling: They'll want to know who will chair or co-chair this
>   task force
>   ... if we could decide this today it would be good
>
>   Bill_Kasdorf: within the IG?
>
>   mgylling: Joint task force between DPUB and PF
>
>   ivan: at some point I did volunteer at TPAC to look at
>   OWL-specific things
>
>   tzviya: I'm happy to help out
>
>   mgylling: initially we can propose Markus and Tzviya as
>   co-chairs
>
>   tzviya: and thank you George
>
>   Bill_Kasdorf: yes
>
>   tzviya: any other questions about the progress of this task
>   force?
>
>   ivan: I want to understand whether we have a plan on the timing
>   and the road ahead
>   ... where are the bottlenecks?
>
>   tzviya: good question
>   ... we were the first big bottleneck
>   ... next phase is setting up task force meetings
>   ... holidays will complicate that
>   ... next bottleneck will be agreeing on definitions
>
>   mgylling: hard to predict how much time it will take to bless
>   and publish this
>
>   ivan: I felt that IDPF already has the definitions for these
>   terms
>   ... aren't they already there?
>
>   mgylling: they are our initial proposed definitions
>   ... but as we move into new context there may be an evolution
>
>   ivan: we do not start from scratch
>
>   tzviya: I'd like to get this to PF this week
>
>   ivan: their question will be
>   ... I don't know what you mean by SSV category
>
>   tzviya: I would like to get a cleaned-up version of this to PF
>   this week
>
>   <Vlad> sorry, have to disconnect now
>
>   tzviya: I'd like to have the task force meetings in December
>   ... want to get it moving this month
>   ... we'll have something to present to PF this week
>   ... we'll at least have a meeting scheduled soon
>   ... but much depends on how PF interprets this
>
>   <mgylling>
>   [12]http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/

>
>     [12] http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/

>
> longdesc
>
>   <mgylling> (AC only)
>   [13]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/

>
>     [13] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/

>
>   mgylling: here's the AC review link
>   ... we have been reminded that input from the publishing
>   community is desired
>   ... so how can we produce a review?
>   ... we need to poke all publisher W3C members to do this review
>
>   George: I was hoping to clarify in my mind the implications of
>   this
>   ... clarifying the usage, and then asking other w3c members to
>   comment
>
>   mgylling: in terms of clarifying the usage, can you rephrase as
>   question? This has been discussed for more than a decade
>
>   George: when a long desc is needed, such as "the Diagrammar", a
>   framework for making images accessible
>   ... when would you use long desc, and the other aspect is SVG,
>   how do we add enhancements to other elements other than just
>   the image?
>   ... this is just focused on image
>   ... there are other items that need a description
>   ... is the rec that there be a variety of techniques, depending
>   on the element? Like canvas...
>
>   mgylling: right
>   ... there is an attribute in ARIA 1.1 called described-at,
>   which takes a URL so you can point outside the doc
>   ... which is a more generic version of longdesc
>   ... longdesc is allowed on IMG and map only
>   ... so you're asking about what is the long-term vision
>
>   George: there's the political aspect
>   ... it's been a Herculean effort from them
>   ... just trying to get my head around all this
>
>   mgylling: it's safe to say that in PF strategy terms, longdesc
>   is intended to solve problems in the short term
>   ... while waiting for ARIA 1.1 to me mature
>
>   George: the techniques for exposing this attribute, in Firefox
>   it's a context menu item
>   ... I think the long term goal is good
>
>   mgylling: another thing on horizon is annotations
>   ... which can be used for a11y
>   ... with annotations, the pointing direction is reversed
>   ... it's good to have both described-at and annotations
>   ... that's the end point
>
>   ivan: I'm a bit bothered by what's happening in terms of
>   process
>   ... George is asking about long term
>   ... procedurally, at this point the only thing that members can
>   vote on
>   ... is essentially a yes or no, since this is already a PR
>   ... they may decide it's not to be a REC
>   ... but it is not at this stage that any technical comments
>   should occur
>   ... but we missed the boat
>   ... If publishers support this, that's a valuable message, as
>   there has been controversy
>
>   George: we supplied formal written comments a couple of years
>   ago
>
>   clapierre: a couple questions
>
>   <clapierre>
>   [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014A

>   ug/0028.html
>
>     [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0028.html

>
>   clapierre: first, here's Apple's formal objection
>   ... if this long description is pointing to a URL, how does
>   this work offline
>
>   <mgylling>
>   [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014O

>   ct/0099.html
>
>     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0099.html

>
>   mgylling: good questions
>   ... having monitored this for a decade, I'm lacking enthusiasm
>   to start into this again
>   ... it is what it is
>   ... the politics are so involved that technical merit
>   discussions are moot
>   ... it doesn't solve all problems, but solves some
>   ... but it's not the golden wrench
>   ... it's just one thing in the toolbox
>
>   clapierre: ARIA seems like the right approach
>   ... affects SVG, STEM...
>   ... it was rejected for HTML
>   ... will this get into a revision of HTML5 quicker than ARIA?
>
>   ivan: not sure how this is done editorially
>   ... it might be an extension
>
>   George: the politics here is that if DPUB or a number of
>   members come out against longdesc
>   ... the public would view this as the publishing industry not
>   wanting to support a11y
>   ... that would be the appearance of it
>   ... that's the wrong message
>   ... I don't think we could avoid that (mis)perception
>   ... if the group came out against longdesc
>
>   ivan: I understand
>   ... I don't want to evade the issue
>   ... but since we're in PR, this IG is not in position to be
>   pro/con
>   ... this is now in the hands of the individual members
>   ... it's way too late
>   ... it's out of the hands of the groups
>
>   tzviya: Let's remind people to review this, but it's not the
>   place of DPUB to say how to vote
>
>   mgylling: so we want to get the publishing industry to vote
>   ... It's a milestone, but it's not the endpoint
>   ... the more important question is what to do after longdesc?
>   ... participation in PF from publishing is low
>   ... maybe we should get more people to work on ARIA 1.1
>
>   George: participation in PF and ARIA is going to be important
>   ... also, the implementations of those features and functions
>   is important
>   ... like in Readium
>
>   Bill_Kasdorf: with regard to longdesc, what is the status of
>   implementation
>
>   mgylling: there is an implementation report published with the
>   provisional rec
>   ... we're poking AC reps...
>   ... how can we be more proactive moving forward, that's a
>   matter of resource assignment
>   ... so now's a good time for digital publishing to get involved
>   in ARIA
>
>   <mgylling> ack [IPcaller]
>
>   avnesh: what happens if review for longdesc is negative?
>
>   mgylling: what would we practically do?
>   ... epub 3.0.1 already allows aria described-at
>   ... we can't easily answer the question
>   ... any last questions?
>   ... thanks everyone
>
>   all: bye bye bye bye bye
>
>   <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
>   [End of minutes]
>     __________________________________________________________
>
>
>    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [16]scribe.perl version
>    1.140 ([17]CVS log)
>    $Date: 2014-12-09 07:36:01 $
>     __________________________________________________________
>
>     [16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

>     [17] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

>
> Scribe.perl diagnostic output
>
>   [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
> This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30
> Check for newer version at [18]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/

> scribe/
>
>     [18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/

>
> Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
>
> Succeeded: s/Amnish/Avneesh/
> FAILED: s/wizzard/wizard/
> Succeeded: s/diagrammer/Diagrammar/
> Succeeded: s/description/direction/
> Succeeded: s/controvery/controversy/
> Succeeded: s/???/avnesh/
> Succeeded: s/epub 3.1/epub 3.0.1/
> Found ScribeNick: dauwhe
> Inferring Scribes: dauwhe
> Default Present: George_Kerscher, dkaplan3, [IPcaller], clapierre, MikeM
> iller, Ivan, +1.212.255.aaaa, tzviya, Luc, Markus, Vlad, Stearns, bjdmee
> st, Bill_Kasdorf, Thierry, Bert, +1.347.633.aabb, Julie, fjh
> Present: George_Kerscher dkaplan3 [IPcaller] clapierre MikeMiller Ivan +
> 1.212.255.aaaa tzviya Luc Markus Vlad Stearns bjdmeest Bill_Kasdorf Thie
> rry Bert +1.347.633.aabb Julie fjh Ben_De_Meester Avneesh Singh (DAISY)
>
> WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Madi, David_Stroup)
> Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the lis
> t,
> such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ pkra, david_stroup
>
> Regrets: pkra david_stroup
> Agenda: [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014De

> c/0001.html
>
>     [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html

>
> WARNING: No meeting chair found!
> You should specify the meeting chair like this:
> <dbooth> Chair: dbooth
>
> Found Date: 08 Dec 2014
> Guessing minutes URL: [20]http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html

> People with action items:
>
>     [20] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html

>
>
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>
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>
>
>


----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/

mobile: +31-641044153<tel:%2B31-641044153>
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704