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Re: Summary of yesterday's meeting (Was Re: [Minutes] 2014-12-08 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference)

From: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 14:44:41 +0100
Message-ID: <CABqxo837FXvfrCG_LQUoSLvghiFd0-MZBB5MqCg2TzjDN8fWjQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Cc: Tzviya Siegman <tsiegman@wiley.com>, Thierry Michel <tmichel@w3.org>, W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Sorry about that; late night emailing never bodes well. Yes, that is the
spreadsheet I was trying to refer to.

Of course, one can copy&paste the HTML table and read it elsewhere. But
in-cell wrapping would help the casual reader (Format => wrap text).

Peter.

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>
> I presume you mean:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml
>
> that is under the control of Tzviya, I let her answer that...
>
> Ivan
>
>
>
> > On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:48 , Peter Krautzberger <
> peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I was going through the minutes.
> >
> > Is it just me or is the google doc locked in such a way that not all
> content is visible?
> >
> > Also, how widely can we circulate this and how do we direct responses we
> get? (E.g., a few STEM-related additions come to mind.)
> >
> > Best,
> > Peter.
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
> > The summary of the meeting is here:
> >
> > https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meeting_Summary_2014-12-08
> >
> > Ivan
> >
> >
> > > On 09 Dec 2014, at 08:37 , Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
> dated 2014-12-08 are now available at
> > >
> > >    http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html
> > >
> > > These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
> > >    http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
> > >
> > > Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your
> convenience.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Thierry Michel
> > >
> > > ----------------------------
> > >
> > >   [1]W3C
> > >
> > >      [1] http://www.w3.org/
> > >
> > >            Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
> > >
> > > 08 Dec 2014
> > >
> > >   [2]Agenda
> > >
> > >      [2]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html
> > >
> > >   See also: [3]IRC log
> > >
> > >      [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-irc
> > >
> > > Attendees
> > >
> > >   Present
> > >           George Kerscher (George_Kerscher), Deborah Kaplan
> > >          (dkaplan3),  Charles LaPierre (clapierre), MikeMiller
> > >          (MikeMiller),  Ivan Herman (Ivan),  Tzviya Siegman
> > >          (tzviya), Luc Audrain (Luc), Markus Gylling (Markus),
> > >          Vladimir Levantovsky (Vlad), Alan Stearns (Stearns),
> > >          Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Thierry Michel (tmichel),
> > >          Bert Bos (Bert), Julie Morris (Julie), Frederick Hirsch
> > >          (fjh), Ben De Meester (bjdmeest), Avneesh, Singh,
> > >          (DAISY), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Madi Solomon (madi)
> > >
> > >   Regrets
> > >          Peter Kreutzberger, David Stroup, Ayla Stein
> > >
> > >   Chair
> > >          Tzviya Siegman (tzviya)
> > >
> > >   Scribe
> > >          Dave Cramer (dauwhe)
> > >
> > > Contents
> > >
> > >     * [4]Topics
> > >         1. [5]longdesc
> > >     * [6]Summary of Action Items
> > >     __________________________________________________________
> > >
> > >   <trackbot> Date: 08 December 2014
> > >
> > >   <Vlad> Apologies, I have a conflict and will have to disconnect
> > >   in 1/2 hour
> > >
> > >   <scribe> scribenick: dauwhe
> > >
> > >   tzviya: we have some new people here today
> > >
> > >   George: I'm president of IDPF and Secretary-General of DAISY
> > >   ... working on epub issues
> > >
> > >   Avneesh: work for DAISY
> > >   ... also work on EPUB
> > >
> > >   <tzviya> [7]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
> > >
> > >      [7] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
> > >
> > >   tzviya: review minutes from last week
> > >   ... any comments?
> > >
> > >   <tzviya> [8]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html
> > >
> > >      [8] http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html
> > >
> > >   tzviya: we also had short minutes for the first time
> > >
> > >   mgylling: we're doing short minutes until further notice?
> > >
> > >   tzviya: yes. lots of good feedback.
> > >
> > >   mgylling: Ivan has taken responsibility for short minutes?
> > >
> > >   ivan: yes
> > >
> > >   tzviya: if anyone wants to do them, Ivan would graciously
> > >   accept :)
> > >   ... first item is to review list of digital publishing terms to
> > >   present to PF
> > >   ... at TPAC we met with PF
> > >   ... about presenting a list of terms to put into an ARIA module
> > >   ... so we can have a structural semantic vocab for DPUB
> > >   ... Markus and I have worked through EPUB's vocab
> > >
> > >   <tzviya>
> > >   [9]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p
> > >   7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0
> > >
> > >      [9]
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0
> > >
> > >   tzviya: the goal is to add to this list as needed
> > >   ... the definitions in this list will be cleaned up
> > >   ... sorry... document is not yet public
> > >   ... [working on making the document public]
> > >
> > >   <bjdmeest> this is the non-edit link (I think)
> > >   [10]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8
> > >   p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml
> > >
> > >     [10]
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml
> > >
> > >   s/wizzard/wizard/
> > >
> > >   mgylling: this is a subset of epub structural semantic vocab
> > >
> > >   tzviya: we also have include/defer column here
> > >   ... some we might want to remove
> > >   ... category may or may not be relevant
> > >   ... we'll need some additional description before presenting to
> > >   ARIA
> > >   ... and we have a few notes about current relationships with
> > >   ARIA
> > >   ... for example, around notes/note
> > >   ... the existing list has 200 terms, this is less than 40
> > >   ... next step is to clean up, clarify definitions
> > >   ... then schedule meeting with PF
> > >   ... try to get this into module of ARIA
> > >   ... and, as always, volunteers are welcome
> > >
> > >   ivan: still digesting
> > >
> > >   mgylling: for context, terms that have been excluded in this
> > >   round
> > >   ... we expect to append to it in later cycles
> > >   ... PF wants to set up a more agile process for adding to ARIA
> > >   ... lots of terms are still in draft
> > >   ... including edu terms, comic terms, etc
> > >   ... we elected to wait on those
> > >
> > >   Bill_Kasdorf: are any of these draft status?
> > >
> > >   mgylling: I think only two
> > >
> > >   tzviya: two or three from the testing section
> > >   ... question and answer
> > >
> > >   Bill_Kasdorf: none from magazine vocab?
> > >
> > >   tzviya: no
> > >
> > >   mgylling: should we talk about staffing of task force?
> > >
> > >   ivan: will these be used as values of role attribute?
> > >   ... if I look at "usage" column
> > >
> > >   <tzviya>
> > >   <dc:source>[11]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/</sourc
> > >   e>
> > >
> > >     [11] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
> > >
> > >   ivan: do we want to make a restriction on which HTML element
> > >   can be used for that specific value?
> > >
> > >   mgylling: on which element the value is expected to occur?
> > >
> > >   ivan: allowed
> > >
> > >   mgylling: we have epub definition of usage, which is
> > >   recommended, not required
> > >   ... we need to ARIA-ify these
> > >   ... will be put in same framework as existing ARIA roles
> > >   ... so we'll need to do same things ARIA already does for each
> > >   term
> > >
> > >   ivan: ARIA can define a restriction?
> > >
> > >   mgylling: yes
> > >   ... HTML5 may also have restrictions
> > >   ... right now we're working on the ARIA definitions
> > >   ... looking for an example now...
> > >
> > >   tzviya: the glossary terms are a good example
> > >   ... <dl role="glossary">
> > >   ... might restrict it to just that or might have <ul
> > >   role="glossary">
> > >
> > >   ivan: I don't know all the possible restrictions PF can set
> > >
> > >   tzviya: it's not just sending a list to PF, we should have a
> > >   task force with regular meetings
> > >   ... Markus and I will work on this, and we want volunteers to
> > >   join us
> > >
> > >   George: I've joined the PF list and am ready to participate
> > >
> > >   mgylling: They'll want to know who will chair or co-chair this
> > >   task force
> > >   ... if we could decide this today it would be good
> > >
> > >   Bill_Kasdorf: within the IG?
> > >
> > >   mgylling: Joint task force between DPUB and PF
> > >
> > >   ivan: at some point I did volunteer at TPAC to look at
> > >   OWL-specific things
> > >
> > >   tzviya: I'm happy to help out
> > >
> > >   mgylling: initially we can propose Markus and Tzviya as
> > >   co-chairs
> > >
> > >   tzviya: and thank you George
> > >
> > >   Bill_Kasdorf: yes
> > >
> > >   tzviya: any other questions about the progress of this task
> > >   force?
> > >
> > >   ivan: I want to understand whether we have a plan on the timing
> > >   and the road ahead
> > >   ... where are the bottlenecks?
> > >
> > >   tzviya: good question
> > >   ... we were the first big bottleneck
> > >   ... next phase is setting up task force meetings
> > >   ... holidays will complicate that
> > >   ... next bottleneck will be agreeing on definitions
> > >
> > >   mgylling: hard to predict how much time it will take to bless
> > >   and publish this
> > >
> > >   ivan: I felt that IDPF already has the definitions for these
> > >   terms
> > >   ... aren't they already there?
> > >
> > >   mgylling: they are our initial proposed definitions
> > >   ... but as we move into new context there may be an evolution
> > >
> > >   ivan: we do not start from scratch
> > >
> > >   tzviya: I'd like to get this to PF this week
> > >
> > >   ivan: their question will be
> > >   ... I don't know what you mean by SSV category
> > >
> > >   tzviya: I would like to get a cleaned-up version of this to PF
> > >   this week
> > >
> > >   <Vlad> sorry, have to disconnect now
> > >
> > >   tzviya: I'd like to have the task force meetings in December
> > >   ... want to get it moving this month
> > >   ... we'll have something to present to PF this week
> > >   ... we'll at least have a meeting scheduled soon
> > >   ... but much depends on how PF interprets this
> > >
> > >   <mgylling>
> > >   [12]http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/
> > >
> > >     [12] http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/
> > >
> > > longdesc
> > >
> > >   <mgylling> (AC only)
> > >   [13]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/
> > >
> > >     [13] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/
> > >
> > >   mgylling: here's the AC review link
> > >   ... we have been reminded that input from the publishing
> > >   community is desired
> > >   ... so how can we produce a review?
> > >   ... we need to poke all publisher W3C members to do this review
> > >
> > >   George: I was hoping to clarify in my mind the implications of
> > >   this
> > >   ... clarifying the usage, and then asking other w3c members to
> > >   comment
> > >
> > >   mgylling: in terms of clarifying the usage, can you rephrase as
> > >   question? This has been discussed for more than a decade
> > >
> > >   George: when a long desc is needed, such as "the Diagrammar", a
> > >   framework for making images accessible
> > >   ... when would you use long desc, and the other aspect is SVG,
> > >   how do we add enhancements to other elements other than just
> > >   the image?
> > >   ... this is just focused on image
> > >   ... there are other items that need a description
> > >   ... is the rec that there be a variety of techniques, depending
> > >   on the element? Like canvas...
> > >
> > >   mgylling: right
> > >   ... there is an attribute in ARIA 1.1 called described-at,
> > >   which takes a URL so you can point outside the doc
> > >   ... which is a more generic version of longdesc
> > >   ... longdesc is allowed on IMG and map only
> > >   ... so you're asking about what is the long-term vision
> > >
> > >   George: there's the political aspect
> > >   ... it's been a Herculean effort from them
> > >   ... just trying to get my head around all this
> > >
> > >   mgylling: it's safe to say that in PF strategy terms, longdesc
> > >   is intended to solve problems in the short term
> > >   ... while waiting for ARIA 1.1 to me mature
> > >
> > >   George: the techniques for exposing this attribute, in Firefox
> > >   it's a context menu item
> > >   ... I think the long term goal is good
> > >
> > >   mgylling: another thing on horizon is annotations
> > >   ... which can be used for a11y
> > >   ... with annotations, the pointing direction is reversed
> > >   ... it's good to have both described-at and annotations
> > >   ... that's the end point
> > >
> > >   ivan: I'm a bit bothered by what's happening in terms of
> > >   process
> > >   ... George is asking about long term
> > >   ... procedurally, at this point the only thing that members can
> > >   vote on
> > >   ... is essentially a yes or no, since this is already a PR
> > >   ... they may decide it's not to be a REC
> > >   ... but it is not at this stage that any technical comments
> > >   should occur
> > >   ... but we missed the boat
> > >   ... If publishers support this, that's a valuable message, as
> > >   there has been controversy
> > >
> > >   George: we supplied formal written comments a couple of years
> > >   ago
> > >
> > >   clapierre: a couple questions
> > >
> > >   <clapierre>
> > >   [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014A
> > >   ug/0028.html
> > >
> > >     [14]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0028.html
> > >
> > >   clapierre: first, here's Apple's formal objection
> > >   ... if this long description is pointing to a URL, how does
> > >   this work offline
> > >
> > >   <mgylling>
> > >   [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014O
> > >   ct/0099.html
> > >
> > >     [15]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0099.html
> > >
> > >   mgylling: good questions
> > >   ... having monitored this for a decade, I'm lacking enthusiasm
> > >   to start into this again
> > >   ... it is what it is
> > >   ... the politics are so involved that technical merit
> > >   discussions are moot
> > >   ... it doesn't solve all problems, but solves some
> > >   ... but it's not the golden wrench
> > >   ... it's just one thing in the toolbox
> > >
> > >   clapierre: ARIA seems like the right approach
> > >   ... affects SVG, STEM...
> > >   ... it was rejected for HTML
> > >   ... will this get into a revision of HTML5 quicker than ARIA?
> > >
> > >   ivan: not sure how this is done editorially
> > >   ... it might be an extension
> > >
> > >   George: the politics here is that if DPUB or a number of
> > >   members come out against longdesc
> > >   ... the public would view this as the publishing industry not
> > >   wanting to support a11y
> > >   ... that would be the appearance of it
> > >   ... that's the wrong message
> > >   ... I don't think we could avoid that (mis)perception
> > >   ... if the group came out against longdesc
> > >
> > >   ivan: I understand
> > >   ... I don't want to evade the issue
> > >   ... but since we're in PR, this IG is not in position to be
> > >   pro/con
> > >   ... this is now in the hands of the individual members
> > >   ... it's way too late
> > >   ... it's out of the hands of the groups
> > >
> > >   tzviya: Let's remind people to review this, but it's not the
> > >   place of DPUB to say how to vote
> > >
> > >   mgylling: so we want to get the publishing industry to vote
> > >   ... It's a milestone, but it's not the endpoint
> > >   ... the more important question is what to do after longdesc?
> > >   ... participation in PF from publishing is low
> > >   ... maybe we should get more people to work on ARIA 1.1
> > >
> > >   George: participation in PF and ARIA is going to be important
> > >   ... also, the implementations of those features and functions
> > >   is important
> > >   ... like in Readium
> > >
> > >   Bill_Kasdorf: with regard to longdesc, what is the status of
> > >   implementation
> > >
> > >   mgylling: there is an implementation report published with the
> > >   provisional rec
> > >   ... we're poking AC reps...
> > >   ... how can we be more proactive moving forward, that's a
> > >   matter of resource assignment
> > >   ... so now's a good time for digital publishing to get involved
> > >   in ARIA
> > >
> > >   <mgylling> ack [IPcaller]
> > >
> > >   avnesh: what happens if review for longdesc is negative?
> > >
> > >   mgylling: what would we practically do?
> > >   ... epub 3.0.1 already allows aria described-at
> > >   ... we can't easily answer the question
> > >   ... any last questions?
> > >   ... thanks everyone
> > >
> > >   all: bye bye bye bye bye
> > >
> > >   <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
> > >
> > > Summary of Action Items
> > >
> > >   [End of minutes]
> > >     __________________________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > >    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [16]scribe.perl version
> > >    1.140 ([17]CVS log)
> > >    $Date: 2014-12-09 07:36:01 $
> > >     __________________________________________________________
> > >
> > >     [16]
> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
> > >     [17] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
> > >
> > > Scribe.perl diagnostic output
> > >
> > >   [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
> > > This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30
> > > Check for newer version at [18]
> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
> > > scribe/
> > >
> > >     [18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/
> > >
> > > Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
> > >
> > > Succeeded: s/Amnish/Avneesh/
> > > FAILED: s/wizzard/wizard/
> > > Succeeded: s/diagrammer/Diagrammar/
> > > Succeeded: s/description/direction/
> > > Succeeded: s/controvery/controversy/
> > > Succeeded: s/???/avnesh/
> > > Succeeded: s/epub 3.1/epub 3.0.1/
> > > Found ScribeNick: dauwhe
> > > Inferring Scribes: dauwhe
> > > Default Present: George_Kerscher, dkaplan3, [IPcaller], clapierre,
> MikeM
> > > iller, Ivan, +1.212.255.aaaa, tzviya, Luc, Markus, Vlad, Stearns,
> bjdmee
> > > st, Bill_Kasdorf, Thierry, Bert, +1.347.633.aabb, Julie, fjh
> > > Present: George_Kerscher dkaplan3 [IPcaller] clapierre MikeMiller Ivan
> +
> > > 1.212.255.aaaa tzviya Luc Markus Vlad Stearns bjdmeest Bill_Kasdorf
> Thie
> > > rry Bert +1.347.633.aabb Julie fjh Ben_De_Meester Avneesh Singh (DAISY)
> > >
> > > WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Madi,
> David_Stroup)
> > > Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the
> lis
> > > t,
> > > such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ pkra, david_stroup
> > >
> > > Regrets: pkra david_stroup
> > > Agenda: [19]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014De
> > > c/0001.html
> > >
> > >     [19]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html
> > >
> > > WARNING: No meeting chair found!
> > > You should specify the meeting chair like this:
> > > <dbooth> Chair: dbooth
> > >
> > > Found Date: 08 Dec 2014
> > > Guessing minutes URL: [20]
> http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html
> > > People with action items:
> > >
> > >     [20] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html
> > >
> > >
> > >   [End of [21]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
> > >
> > >     [21]
> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ----
> > Ivan Herman, W3C
> > Digital Publishing Activity Lead
> > Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> > mobile: +31-641044153
> > ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Digital Publishing Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Saturday, 13 December 2014 13:45:10 UTC

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