- From: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>
- Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 14:44:41 +0100
- To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
- Cc: Tzviya Siegman <tsiegman@wiley.com>, Thierry Michel <tmichel@w3.org>, W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CABqxo837FXvfrCG_LQUoSLvghiFd0-MZBB5MqCg2TzjDN8fWjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Sorry about that; late night emailing never bodes well. Yes, that is the spreadsheet I was trying to refer to. Of course, one can copy&paste the HTML table and read it elsewhere. But in-cell wrapping would help the casual reader (Format => wrap text). Peter. On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 8:52 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote: > > I presume you mean: > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml > > that is under the control of Tzviya, I let her answer that... > > Ivan > > > > > On 12 Dec 2014, at 23:48 , Peter Krautzberger < > peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I was going through the minutes. > > > > Is it just me or is the google doc locked in such a way that not all > content is visible? > > > > Also, how widely can we circulate this and how do we direct responses we > get? (E.g., a few STEM-related additions come to mind.) > > > > Best, > > Peter. > > > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote: > > The summary of the meeting is here: > > > > https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meeting_Summary_2014-12-08 > > > > Ivan > > > > > > > On 09 Dec 2014, at 08:37 , Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org> wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference > dated 2014-12-08 are now available at > > > > > > http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html > > > > > > These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki > > > http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings > > > > > > Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your > convenience. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Thierry Michel > > > > > > ---------------------------- > > > > > > [1]W3C > > > > > > [1] http://www.w3.org/ > > > > > > Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference > > > > > > 08 Dec 2014 > > > > > > [2]Agenda > > > > > > [2] > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html > > > > > > See also: [3]IRC log > > > > > > [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-irc > > > > > > Attendees > > > > > > Present > > > George Kerscher (George_Kerscher), Deborah Kaplan > > > (dkaplan3), Charles LaPierre (clapierre), MikeMiller > > > (MikeMiller), Ivan Herman (Ivan), Tzviya Siegman > > > (tzviya), Luc Audrain (Luc), Markus Gylling (Markus), > > > Vladimir Levantovsky (Vlad), Alan Stearns (Stearns), > > > Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Thierry Michel (tmichel), > > > Bert Bos (Bert), Julie Morris (Julie), Frederick Hirsch > > > (fjh), Ben De Meester (bjdmeest), Avneesh, Singh, > > > (DAISY), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Madi Solomon (madi) > > > > > > Regrets > > > Peter Kreutzberger, David Stroup, Ayla Stein > > > > > > Chair > > > Tzviya Siegman (tzviya) > > > > > > Scribe > > > Dave Cramer (dauwhe) > > > > > > Contents > > > > > > * [4]Topics > > > 1. [5]longdesc > > > * [6]Summary of Action Items > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > <trackbot> Date: 08 December 2014 > > > > > > <Vlad> Apologies, I have a conflict and will have to disconnect > > > in 1/2 hour > > > > > > <scribe> scribenick: dauwhe > > > > > > tzviya: we have some new people here today > > > > > > George: I'm president of IDPF and Secretary-General of DAISY > > > ... working on epub issues > > > > > > Avneesh: work for DAISY > > > ... also work on EPUB > > > > > > <tzviya> [7]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings > > > > > > [7] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings > > > > > > tzviya: review minutes from last week > > > ... any comments? > > > > > > <tzviya> [8]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html > > > > > > [8] http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html > > > > > > tzviya: we also had short minutes for the first time > > > > > > mgylling: we're doing short minutes until further notice? > > > > > > tzviya: yes. lots of good feedback. > > > > > > mgylling: Ivan has taken responsibility for short minutes? > > > > > > ivan: yes > > > > > > tzviya: if anyone wants to do them, Ivan would graciously > > > accept :) > > > ... first item is to review list of digital publishing terms to > > > present to PF > > > ... at TPAC we met with PF > > > ... about presenting a list of terms to put into an ARIA module > > > ... so we can have a structural semantic vocab for DPUB > > > ... Markus and I have worked through EPUB's vocab > > > > > > <tzviya> > > > [9]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p > > > 7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0 > > > > > > [9] > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0 > > > > > > tzviya: the goal is to add to this list as needed > > > ... the definitions in this list will be cleaned up > > > ... sorry... document is not yet public > > > ... [working on making the document public] > > > > > > <bjdmeest> this is the non-edit link (I think) > > > [10]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8 > > > p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml > > > > > > [10] > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml > > > > > > s/wizzard/wizard/ > > > > > > mgylling: this is a subset of epub structural semantic vocab > > > > > > tzviya: we also have include/defer column here > > > ... some we might want to remove > > > ... category may or may not be relevant > > > ... we'll need some additional description before presenting to > > > ARIA > > > ... and we have a few notes about current relationships with > > > ARIA > > > ... for example, around notes/note > > > ... the existing list has 200 terms, this is less than 40 > > > ... next step is to clean up, clarify definitions > > > ... then schedule meeting with PF > > > ... try to get this into module of ARIA > > > ... and, as always, volunteers are welcome > > > > > > ivan: still digesting > > > > > > mgylling: for context, terms that have been excluded in this > > > round > > > ... we expect to append to it in later cycles > > > ... PF wants to set up a more agile process for adding to ARIA > > > ... lots of terms are still in draft > > > ... including edu terms, comic terms, etc > > > ... we elected to wait on those > > > > > > Bill_Kasdorf: are any of these draft status? > > > > > > mgylling: I think only two > > > > > > tzviya: two or three from the testing section > > > ... question and answer > > > > > > Bill_Kasdorf: none from magazine vocab? > > > > > > tzviya: no > > > > > > mgylling: should we talk about staffing of task force? > > > > > > ivan: will these be used as values of role attribute? > > > ... if I look at "usage" column > > > > > > <tzviya> > > > <dc:source>[11]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/</sourc > > > e> > > > > > > [11] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/ > > > > > > ivan: do we want to make a restriction on which HTML element > > > can be used for that specific value? > > > > > > mgylling: on which element the value is expected to occur? > > > > > > ivan: allowed > > > > > > mgylling: we have epub definition of usage, which is > > > recommended, not required > > > ... we need to ARIA-ify these > > > ... will be put in same framework as existing ARIA roles > > > ... so we'll need to do same things ARIA already does for each > > > term > > > > > > ivan: ARIA can define a restriction? > > > > > > mgylling: yes > > > ... HTML5 may also have restrictions > > > ... right now we're working on the ARIA definitions > > > ... looking for an example now... > > > > > > tzviya: the glossary terms are a good example > > > ... <dl role="glossary"> > > > ... might restrict it to just that or might have <ul > > > role="glossary"> > > > > > > ivan: I don't know all the possible restrictions PF can set > > > > > > tzviya: it's not just sending a list to PF, we should have a > > > task force with regular meetings > > > ... Markus and I will work on this, and we want volunteers to > > > join us > > > > > > George: I've joined the PF list and am ready to participate > > > > > > mgylling: They'll want to know who will chair or co-chair this > > > task force > > > ... if we could decide this today it would be good > > > > > > Bill_Kasdorf: within the IG? > > > > > > mgylling: Joint task force between DPUB and PF > > > > > > ivan: at some point I did volunteer at TPAC to look at > > > OWL-specific things > > > > > > tzviya: I'm happy to help out > > > > > > mgylling: initially we can propose Markus and Tzviya as > > > co-chairs > > > > > > tzviya: and thank you George > > > > > > Bill_Kasdorf: yes > > > > > > tzviya: any other questions about the progress of this task > > > force? > > > > > > ivan: I want to understand whether we have a plan on the timing > > > and the road ahead > > > ... where are the bottlenecks? > > > > > > tzviya: good question > > > ... we were the first big bottleneck > > > ... next phase is setting up task force meetings > > > ... holidays will complicate that > > > ... next bottleneck will be agreeing on definitions > > > > > > mgylling: hard to predict how much time it will take to bless > > > and publish this > > > > > > ivan: I felt that IDPF already has the definitions for these > > > terms > > > ... aren't they already there? > > > > > > mgylling: they are our initial proposed definitions > > > ... but as we move into new context there may be an evolution > > > > > > ivan: we do not start from scratch > > > > > > tzviya: I'd like to get this to PF this week > > > > > > ivan: their question will be > > > ... I don't know what you mean by SSV category > > > > > > tzviya: I would like to get a cleaned-up version of this to PF > > > this week > > > > > > <Vlad> sorry, have to disconnect now > > > > > > tzviya: I'd like to have the task force meetings in December > > > ... want to get it moving this month > > > ... we'll have something to present to PF this week > > > ... we'll at least have a meeting scheduled soon > > > ... but much depends on how PF interprets this > > > > > > <mgylling> > > > [12]http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/ > > > > > > [12] http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/ > > > > > > longdesc > > > > > > <mgylling> (AC only) > > > [13]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/ > > > > > > [13] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/ > > > > > > mgylling: here's the AC review link > > > ... we have been reminded that input from the publishing > > > community is desired > > > ... so how can we produce a review? > > > ... we need to poke all publisher W3C members to do this review > > > > > > George: I was hoping to clarify in my mind the implications of > > > this > > > ... clarifying the usage, and then asking other w3c members to > > > comment > > > > > > mgylling: in terms of clarifying the usage, can you rephrase as > > > question? This has been discussed for more than a decade > > > > > > George: when a long desc is needed, such as "the Diagrammar", a > > > framework for making images accessible > > > ... when would you use long desc, and the other aspect is SVG, > > > how do we add enhancements to other elements other than just > > > the image? > > > ... this is just focused on image > > > ... there are other items that need a description > > > ... is the rec that there be a variety of techniques, depending > > > on the element? Like canvas... > > > > > > mgylling: right > > > ... there is an attribute in ARIA 1.1 called described-at, > > > which takes a URL so you can point outside the doc > > > ... which is a more generic version of longdesc > > > ... longdesc is allowed on IMG and map only > > > ... so you're asking about what is the long-term vision > > > > > > George: there's the political aspect > > > ... it's been a Herculean effort from them > > > ... just trying to get my head around all this > > > > > > mgylling: it's safe to say that in PF strategy terms, longdesc > > > is intended to solve problems in the short term > > > ... while waiting for ARIA 1.1 to me mature > > > > > > George: the techniques for exposing this attribute, in Firefox > > > it's a context menu item > > > ... I think the long term goal is good > > > > > > mgylling: another thing on horizon is annotations > > > ... which can be used for a11y > > > ... with annotations, the pointing direction is reversed > > > ... it's good to have both described-at and annotations > > > ... that's the end point > > > > > > ivan: I'm a bit bothered by what's happening in terms of > > > process > > > ... George is asking about long term > > > ... procedurally, at this point the only thing that members can > > > vote on > > > ... is essentially a yes or no, since this is already a PR > > > ... they may decide it's not to be a REC > > > ... but it is not at this stage that any technical comments > > > should occur > > > ... but we missed the boat > > > ... If publishers support this, that's a valuable message, as > > > there has been controversy > > > > > > George: we supplied formal written comments a couple of years > > > ago > > > > > > clapierre: a couple questions > > > > > > <clapierre> > > > [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014A > > > ug/0028.html > > > > > > [14] > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0028.html > > > > > > clapierre: first, here's Apple's formal objection > > > ... if this long description is pointing to a URL, how does > > > this work offline > > > > > > <mgylling> > > > [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014O > > > ct/0099.html > > > > > > [15] > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0099.html > > > > > > mgylling: good questions > > > ... having monitored this for a decade, I'm lacking enthusiasm > > > to start into this again > > > ... it is what it is > > > ... the politics are so involved that technical merit > > > discussions are moot > > > ... it doesn't solve all problems, but solves some > > > ... but it's not the golden wrench > > > ... it's just one thing in the toolbox > > > > > > clapierre: ARIA seems like the right approach > > > ... affects SVG, STEM... > > > ... it was rejected for HTML > > > ... will this get into a revision of HTML5 quicker than ARIA? > > > > > > ivan: not sure how this is done editorially > > > ... it might be an extension > > > > > > George: the politics here is that if DPUB or a number of > > > members come out against longdesc > > > ... the public would view this as the publishing industry not > > > wanting to support a11y > > > ... that would be the appearance of it > > > ... that's the wrong message > > > ... I don't think we could avoid that (mis)perception > > > ... if the group came out against longdesc > > > > > > ivan: I understand > > > ... I don't want to evade the issue > > > ... but since we're in PR, this IG is not in position to be > > > pro/con > > > ... this is now in the hands of the individual members > > > ... it's way too late > > > ... it's out of the hands of the groups > > > > > > tzviya: Let's remind people to review this, but it's not the > > > place of DPUB to say how to vote > > > > > > mgylling: so we want to get the publishing industry to vote > > > ... It's a milestone, but it's not the endpoint > > > ... the more important question is what to do after longdesc? > > > ... participation in PF from publishing is low > > > ... maybe we should get more people to work on ARIA 1.1 > > > > > > George: participation in PF and ARIA is going to be important > > > ... also, the implementations of those features and functions > > > is important > > > ... like in Readium > > > > > > Bill_Kasdorf: with regard to longdesc, what is the status of > > > implementation > > > > > > mgylling: there is an implementation report published with the > > > provisional rec > > > ... we're poking AC reps... > > > ... how can we be more proactive moving forward, that's a > > > matter of resource assignment > > > ... so now's a good time for digital publishing to get involved > > > in ARIA > > > > > > <mgylling> ack [IPcaller] > > > > > > avnesh: what happens if review for longdesc is negative? > > > > > > mgylling: what would we practically do? > > > ... epub 3.0.1 already allows aria described-at > > > ... we can't easily answer the question > > > ... any last questions? > > > ... thanks everyone > > > > > > all: bye bye bye bye bye > > > > > > <ivan> trackbot, end telcon > > > > > > Summary of Action Items > > > > > > [End of minutes] > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Minutes formatted by David Booth's [16]scribe.perl version > > > 1.140 ([17]CVS log) > > > $Date: 2014-12-09 07:36:01 $ > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > [16] > http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm > > > [17] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/ > > > > > > Scribe.perl diagnostic output > > > > > > [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.] > > > This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 > > > Check for newer version at [18] > http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ > > > scribe/ > > > > > > [18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/ > > > > > > Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) > > > > > > Succeeded: s/Amnish/Avneesh/ > > > FAILED: s/wizzard/wizard/ > > > Succeeded: s/diagrammer/Diagrammar/ > > > Succeeded: s/description/direction/ > > > Succeeded: s/controvery/controversy/ > > > Succeeded: s/???/avnesh/ > > > Succeeded: s/epub 3.1/epub 3.0.1/ > > > Found ScribeNick: dauwhe > > > Inferring Scribes: dauwhe > > > Default Present: George_Kerscher, dkaplan3, [IPcaller], clapierre, > MikeM > > > iller, Ivan, +1.212.255.aaaa, tzviya, Luc, Markus, Vlad, Stearns, > bjdmee > > > st, Bill_Kasdorf, Thierry, Bert, +1.347.633.aabb, Julie, fjh > > > Present: George_Kerscher dkaplan3 [IPcaller] clapierre MikeMiller Ivan > + > > > 1.212.255.aaaa tzviya Luc Markus Vlad Stearns bjdmeest Bill_Kasdorf > Thie > > > rry Bert +1.347.633.aabb Julie fjh Ben_De_Meester Avneesh Singh (DAISY) > > > > > > WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Madi, > David_Stroup) > > > Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the > lis > > > t, > > > such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ pkra, david_stroup > > > > > > Regrets: pkra david_stroup > > > Agenda: [19] > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014De > > > c/0001.html > > > > > > [19] > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html > > > > > > WARNING: No meeting chair found! > > > You should specify the meeting chair like this: > > > <dbooth> Chair: dbooth > > > > > > Found Date: 08 Dec 2014 > > > Guessing minutes URL: [20] > http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html > > > People with action items: > > > > > > [20] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html > > > > > > > > > [End of [21]scribe.perl diagnostic output] > > > > > > [21] > http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > Ivan Herman, W3C > > Digital Publishing Activity Lead > > Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ > > mobile: +31-641044153 > > ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704 > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > Ivan Herman, W3C > Digital Publishing Activity Lead > Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ > mobile: +31-641044153 > ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704 > > > > >
Received on Saturday, 13 December 2014 13:45:10 UTC