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[Minutes] 2014-12-08 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 08:37:42 +0100
Message-ID: <5486A6C6.4070206@w3.org>
To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,

The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference 
dated 2014-12-08 are now available at

     http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html

These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
     http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.

Best,

Thierry Michel

----------------------------

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

             Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

08 Dec 2014

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-irc

Attendees

    Present
            George Kerscher (George_Kerscher), Deborah Kaplan
           (dkaplan3),  Charles LaPierre (clapierre), MikeMiller
           (MikeMiller),  Ivan Herman (Ivan),  Tzviya Siegman
           (tzviya), Luc Audrain (Luc), Markus Gylling (Markus),
           Vladimir Levantovsky (Vlad), Alan Stearns (Stearns),
           Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Thierry Michel (tmichel),
           Bert Bos (Bert), Julie Morris (Julie), Frederick Hirsch
           (fjh), Ben De Meester (bjdmeest), Avneesh, Singh,
           (DAISY), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Madi Solomon (madi)

    Regrets
           Peter Kreutzberger, David Stroup, Ayla Stein

    Chair
           Tzviya Siegman (tzviya)

    Scribe
           Dave Cramer (dauwhe)

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]longdesc
      * [6]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 08 December 2014

    <Vlad> Apologies, I have a conflict and will have to disconnect
    in 1/2 hour

    <scribe> scribenick: dauwhe

    tzviya: we have some new people here today

    George: I'm president of IDPF and Secretary-General of DAISY
    ... working on epub issues

    Avneesh: work for DAISY
    ... also work on EPUB

    <tzviya> [7]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

       [7] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

    tzviya: review minutes from last week
    ... any comments?

    <tzviya> [8]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html

       [8] http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html

    tzviya: we also had short minutes for the first time

    mgylling: we're doing short minutes until further notice?

    tzviya: yes. lots of good feedback.

    mgylling: Ivan has taken responsibility for short minutes?

    ivan: yes

    tzviya: if anyone wants to do them, Ivan would graciously
    accept :)
    ... first item is to review list of digital publishing terms to
    present to PF
    ... at TPAC we met with PF
    ... about presenting a list of terms to put into an ARIA module
    ... so we can have a structural semantic vocab for DPUB
    ... Markus and I have worked through EPUB's vocab

    <tzviya>
    [9]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p
    7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0

       [9] 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0

    tzviya: the goal is to add to this list as needed
    ... the definitions in this list will be cleaned up
    ... sorry... document is not yet public
    ... [working on making the document public]

    <bjdmeest> this is the non-edit link (I think)
    [10]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8
    p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml

      [10] 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml

    s/wizzard/wizard/

    mgylling: this is a subset of epub structural semantic vocab

    tzviya: we also have include/defer column here
    ... some we might want to remove
    ... category may or may not be relevant
    ... we'll need some additional description before presenting to
    ARIA
    ... and we have a few notes about current relationships with
    ARIA
    ... for example, around notes/note
    ... the existing list has 200 terms, this is less than 40
    ... next step is to clean up, clarify definitions
    ... then schedule meeting with PF
    ... try to get this into module of ARIA
    ... and, as always, volunteers are welcome

    ivan: still digesting

    mgylling: for context, terms that have been excluded in this
    round
    ... we expect to append to it in later cycles
    ... PF wants to set up a more agile process for adding to ARIA
    ... lots of terms are still in draft
    ... including edu terms, comic terms, etc
    ... we elected to wait on those

    Bill_Kasdorf: are any of these draft status?

    mgylling: I think only two

    tzviya: two or three from the testing section
    ... question and answer

    Bill_Kasdorf: none from magazine vocab?

    tzviya: no

    mgylling: should we talk about staffing of task force?

    ivan: will these be used as values of role attribute?
    ... if I look at "usage" column

    <tzviya>
    <dc:source>[11]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/</sourc
    e>

      [11] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/

    ivan: do we want to make a restriction on which HTML element
    can be used for that specific value?

    mgylling: on which element the value is expected to occur?

    ivan: allowed

    mgylling: we have epub definition of usage, which is
    recommended, not required
    ... we need to ARIA-ify these
    ... will be put in same framework as existing ARIA roles
    ... so we'll need to do same things ARIA already does for each
    term

    ivan: ARIA can define a restriction?

    mgylling: yes
    ... HTML5 may also have restrictions
    ... right now we're working on the ARIA definitions
    ... looking for an example now...

    tzviya: the glossary terms are a good example
    ... <dl role="glossary">
    ... might restrict it to just that or might have <ul
    role="glossary">

    ivan: I don't know all the possible restrictions PF can set

    tzviya: it's not just sending a list to PF, we should have a
    task force with regular meetings
    ... Markus and I will work on this, and we want volunteers to
    join us

    George: I've joined the PF list and am ready to participate

    mgylling: They'll want to know who will chair or co-chair this
    task force
    ... if we could decide this today it would be good

    Bill_Kasdorf: within the IG?

    mgylling: Joint task force between DPUB and PF

    ivan: at some point I did volunteer at TPAC to look at
    OWL-specific things

    tzviya: I'm happy to help out

    mgylling: initially we can propose Markus and Tzviya as
    co-chairs

    tzviya: and thank you George

    Bill_Kasdorf: yes

    tzviya: any other questions about the progress of this task
    force?

    ivan: I want to understand whether we have a plan on the timing
    and the road ahead
    ... where are the bottlenecks?

    tzviya: good question
    ... we were the first big bottleneck
    ... next phase is setting up task force meetings
    ... holidays will complicate that
    ... next bottleneck will be agreeing on definitions

    mgylling: hard to predict how much time it will take to bless
    and publish this

    ivan: I felt that IDPF already has the definitions for these
    terms
    ... aren't they already there?

    mgylling: they are our initial proposed definitions
    ... but as we move into new context there may be an evolution

    ivan: we do not start from scratch

    tzviya: I'd like to get this to PF this week

    ivan: their question will be
    ... I don't know what you mean by SSV category

    tzviya: I would like to get a cleaned-up version of this to PF
    this week

    <Vlad> sorry, have to disconnect now

    tzviya: I'd like to have the task force meetings in December
    ... want to get it moving this month
    ... we'll have something to present to PF this week
    ... we'll at least have a meeting scheduled soon
    ... but much depends on how PF interprets this

    <mgylling>
    [12]http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/

      [12] http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/

longdesc

    <mgylling> (AC only)
    [13]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/

      [13] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/

    mgylling: here's the AC review link
    ... we have been reminded that input from the publishing
    community is desired
    ... so how can we produce a review?
    ... we need to poke all publisher W3C members to do this review

    George: I was hoping to clarify in my mind the implications of
    this
    ... clarifying the usage, and then asking other w3c members to
    comment

    mgylling: in terms of clarifying the usage, can you rephrase as
    question? This has been discussed for more than a decade

    George: when a long desc is needed, such as "the Diagrammar", a
    framework for making images accessible
    ... when would you use long desc, and the other aspect is SVG,
    how do we add enhancements to other elements other than just
    the image?
    ... this is just focused on image
    ... there are other items that need a description
    ... is the rec that there be a variety of techniques, depending
    on the element? Like canvas...

    mgylling: right
    ... there is an attribute in ARIA 1.1 called described-at,
    which takes a URL so you can point outside the doc
    ... which is a more generic version of longdesc
    ... longdesc is allowed on IMG and map only
    ... so you're asking about what is the long-term vision

    George: there's the political aspect
    ... it's been a Herculean effort from them
    ... just trying to get my head around all this

    mgylling: it's safe to say that in PF strategy terms, longdesc
    is intended to solve problems in the short term
    ... while waiting for ARIA 1.1 to me mature

    George: the techniques for exposing this attribute, in Firefox
    it's a context menu item
    ... I think the long term goal is good

    mgylling: another thing on horizon is annotations
    ... which can be used for a11y
    ... with annotations, the pointing direction is reversed
    ... it's good to have both described-at and annotations
    ... that's the end point

    ivan: I'm a bit bothered by what's happening in terms of
    process
    ... George is asking about long term
    ... procedurally, at this point the only thing that members can
    vote on
    ... is essentially a yes or no, since this is already a PR
    ... they may decide it's not to be a REC
    ... but it is not at this stage that any technical comments
    should occur
    ... but we missed the boat
    ... If publishers support this, that's a valuable message, as
    there has been controversy

    George: we supplied formal written comments a couple of years
    ago

    clapierre: a couple questions

    <clapierre>
    [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014A
    ug/0028.html

      [14] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0028.html

    clapierre: first, here's Apple's formal objection
    ... if this long description is pointing to a URL, how does
    this work offline

    <mgylling>
    [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014O
    ct/0099.html

      [15] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0099.html

    mgylling: good questions
    ... having monitored this for a decade, I'm lacking enthusiasm
    to start into this again
    ... it is what it is
    ... the politics are so involved that technical merit
    discussions are moot
    ... it doesn't solve all problems, but solves some
    ... but it's not the golden wrench
    ... it's just one thing in the toolbox

    clapierre: ARIA seems like the right approach
    ... affects SVG, STEM...
    ... it was rejected for HTML
    ... will this get into a revision of HTML5 quicker than ARIA?

    ivan: not sure how this is done editorially
    ... it might be an extension

    George: the politics here is that if DPUB or a number of
    members come out against longdesc
    ... the public would view this as the publishing industry not
    wanting to support a11y
    ... that would be the appearance of it
    ... that's the wrong message
    ... I don't think we could avoid that (mis)perception
    ... if the group came out against longdesc

    ivan: I understand
    ... I don't want to evade the issue
    ... but since we're in PR, this IG is not in position to be
    pro/con
    ... this is now in the hands of the individual members
    ... it's way too late
    ... it's out of the hands of the groups

    tzviya: Let's remind people to review this, but it's not the
    place of DPUB to say how to vote

    mgylling: so we want to get the publishing industry to vote
    ... It's a milestone, but it's not the endpoint
    ... the more important question is what to do after longdesc?
    ... participation in PF from publishing is low
    ... maybe we should get more people to work on ARIA 1.1

    George: participation in PF and ARIA is going to be important
    ... also, the implementations of those features and functions
    is important
    ... like in Readium

    Bill_Kasdorf: with regard to longdesc, what is the status of
    implementation

    mgylling: there is an implementation report published with the
    provisional rec
    ... we're poking AC reps...
    ... how can we be more proactive moving forward, that's a
    matter of resource assignment
    ... so now's a good time for digital publishing to get involved
    in ARIA

    <mgylling> ack [IPcaller]

    avnesh: what happens if review for longdesc is negative?

    mgylling: what would we practically do?
    ... epub 3.0.1 already allows aria described-at
    ... we can't easily answer the question
    ... any last questions?
    ... thanks everyone

    all: bye bye bye bye bye

    <ivan> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [16]scribe.perl version
     1.140 ([17]CVS log)
     $Date: 2014-12-09 07:36:01 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [17] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30
Check for newer version at [18]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
scribe/

      [18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Amnish/Avneesh/
FAILED: s/wizzard/wizard/
Succeeded: s/diagrammer/Diagrammar/
Succeeded: s/description/direction/
Succeeded: s/controvery/controversy/
Succeeded: s/???/avnesh/
Succeeded: s/epub 3.1/epub 3.0.1/
Found ScribeNick: dauwhe
Inferring Scribes: dauwhe
Default Present: George_Kerscher, dkaplan3, [IPcaller], clapierre, MikeM
iller, Ivan, +1.212.255.aaaa, tzviya, Luc, Markus, Vlad, Stearns, bjdmee
st, Bill_Kasdorf, Thierry, Bert, +1.347.633.aabb, Julie, fjh
Present: George_Kerscher dkaplan3 [IPcaller] clapierre MikeMiller Ivan +
1.212.255.aaaa tzviya Luc Markus Vlad Stearns bjdmeest Bill_Kasdorf Thie
rry Bert +1.347.633.aabb Julie fjh Ben_De_Meester Avneesh Singh (DAISY)

WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Madi, David_Stroup)
Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the lis
t,
such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ pkra, david_stroup

Regrets: pkra david_stroup
Agenda: [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014De
c/0001.html

      [19] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 08 Dec 2014
Guessing minutes URL: [20]http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html
People with action items:

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html


    [End of [21]scribe.perl diagnostic output]

      [21] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Tuesday, 9 December 2014 07:37:52 UTC

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