Re: Network Information API

Hey all.

On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 5:12 AM Thomas Steiner <tomac@google.com> wrote:

> Thanks, all, for the responses so far. The initial question for @Ilya
> Grigorik <igrigorik@google.com> still stands (whether there's still some
> active spec work happening).
>

+Yoav Weiss <yoavweiss@google.com> captured it well, there is desire but no
active spec work to address some of the lessons learned. If someone is
willing to drive that process, that'd be great.


> Also, thanks, Addy, for the household names, we definitely have some
> strong industry representatives in there and can thus say the use cases are
> indeed valid and on active use.
>
> For the use cases in fact, there's some great discussion happening already
> in issue 85 <https://github.com/WICG/netinfo/issues/85>, with the
> "metered" aspects being the topic of issue 84
> <https://github.com/WICG/netinfo/issues/84>. So I guess we're in a
> theoretically good position to continue this discussion and just need to
> agree on a practical way as to the how. Is this an adequate summary of the
> state of affairs?
>

Yes, I'd just caution not to over-index on the past backlog and first spend
some quality time on unpacking lessons learned from what is already out
there, and have a think on whether there is a simpler implementation that
can satisfy the key needs whilst exposing less entropy.

ig


> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:11 PM Addy Osmani <addyo@google.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey folks,
>>
>> I have observed almost no partner sites leveraging .type, but many do
>> rely on ECT for an adaptive loading strategy on low-quality networks
>> (Tinder, eBay, Algolia, Twitter). As Yoav mentioned, the most recent
>> conversations regarding ECT have focused on ways to offer a higher-level
>> signal with less entropy, which could do the right thing from a privacy
>> perspective. This direction does receive some pushback from partners who
>> want as much granularity as they can get.
>>
>> If folks are after specific case studies, happy to pull a list together.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Addy
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 7:52 AM TOREINI, EHSAN <
>> ehsan.toreini@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Noam,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for link. Same as here, tracking was the first scenario I came up
>>> with. I will have a read…
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Ehsan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Noam Helfman <noamh@microsoft.com>
>>> *Date: *Thursday, 22 October 2020 at 15:48
>>> *To: *"TOREINI, EHSAN" <ehsan.toreini@durham.ac.uk>, Thomas Steiner <
>>> tomac@google.com>, Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws>
>>> *Cc: *Tarun Bansal <tbansal@google.com>, Ilya Grigorik <
>>> igrigorik@google.com>, Addy Osmani <addyo@google.com>, W3C Devices and
>>> Sensors WG <public-device-apis@w3.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: Network Information API
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some privacy related content here:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://wicg.github.io/netinfo/#privacy-considerations
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* TOREINI, EHSAN <ehsan.toreini@durham.ac.uk>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 22, 2020 5:18:19 PM
>>> *To:* Thomas Steiner <tomac@google.com>; Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws>
>>> *Cc:* Tarun Bansal <tbansal@google.com>; Noam Helfman <
>>> noamh@microsoft.com>; Ilya Grigorik <igrigorik@google.com>; Addy Osmani
>>> <addyo@google.com>; W3C Devices and Sensors WG <
>>> public-device-apis@w3.org>
>>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Network Information API
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quick question, is there any discussions on the privacy and security
>>> implications of network api somewhere? If not, it might be a good idea to
>>> consider that aspect, too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Ehsan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Thomas Steiner <tomac@google.com>
>>> *Date: *Thursday, 22 October 2020 at 12:25
>>> *To: *Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws>
>>> *Cc: *Thomas Steiner <tomac@google.com>, Tarun Bansal <
>>> tbansal@google.com>, Noam Helfman <noamh@microsoft.com>, Ilya Grigorik <
>>> igrigorik@google.com>, Addy Osmani <addyo@google.com>, W3C Devices and
>>> Sensors WG <public-device-apis@w3.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: Network Information API
>>> *Resent from: *<public-device-apis@w3.org>
>>> *Resent date: *Thursday, 22 October 2020 at 12:24
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 10:00 AM Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws> wrote:
>>>
>>> +Tarun Bansal <tbansal@google.com> +Noam Helfman <noamh@microsoft.com>
>>> - FYI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey Thomas!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This was somewhat discussed in the WebPerformance WG yesterday (rough
>>> minutes
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1inejuvPONXPOLKTCcUzOBhPh6QOckMcltnR-E3xyZVQ%2Fedit%3Fts%3D5f809f01%23heading%3Dh.8gfnc7p4nih&data=04%7C01%7Cnoamh%40microsoft.com%7Cba73f04ae3fd460fca3008d87695553a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637389731048497823%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=23k0jVh7mu%2FT60o21VgtOP%2B4AOy12ZbzyQQQgRF5mrA%3D&reserved=0>,
>>> video
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FaID3BvpU_pE&data=04%7C01%7Cnoamh%40microsoft.com%7Cba73f04ae3fd460fca3008d87695553a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637389731048507825%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Qzs71Rc19zdXHDmmAUZTMPnWnsbwxLQohk4Y%2BfcFMvI%3D&reserved=0>
>>> ).
>>>
>>> Regarding spec work, at least on my end, there's desire (but not
>>> necessarily immediate capacity) to revamp the API to ensure it provides
>>> more value to developers while emitting less entropy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, the objective is shared between the two WGs :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The use cases, at least as far as I'm concerned, are not around `type`,
>>> but around providing accurate measurement of the network conditions (so
>>> around `effectiveConnectionType` and `RTT`). (e.g. this blog post
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.algolia.com%2Fnetinfo-api-algolia-javascript-client%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cnoamh%40microsoft.com%7Cba73f04ae3fd460fca3008d87695553a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637389731048507825%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=T65g1SMI2lT5hEn9pyLDOI0wNwURyqYS%2F7cM%2Fo2NbMU%3D&reserved=0>
>>> )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just to clarify, I meant the use cases as outlined in the spec
>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwicg.github.io%2Fnetinfo%2F%23requirements-and-use-cases&data=04%7C01%7Cnoamh%40microsoft.com%7Cba73f04ae3fd460fca3008d87695553a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637389731048517817%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=tv1RUFp3JinV7YoiS5W%2BYssTMbvHQGHe36FlSsNKwgA%3D&reserved=0>.
>>> Marcos Caceres confirmed my suspicion that it all started with .type,
>>> and then later on more details were added, but the use cases in the spec
>>> not updated.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe Addy has more case studies.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That would be great!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If folks at Device & Sensors are interested in collaborating on NetInfo
>>> at the WICG or elsewhere, that'd be awesome! :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We're definitely interested, judging from the discussion today.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Thomas Steiner, PhD—Developer Advocate (https://blog.tomayac.com,
> https://twitter.com/tomayac)
>
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