Re: $variables

"Any node in the data graph that is equal to/the same as/matches (pick 
one) the value of sh:nodescope in the SHACL graph is 'in scope'."

That said, the RDF Concepts document[1] describes a triple as two nodes 
(" node-arc-node "). Therefore "node" does not include the predicate of 
a triple. Could someone confirm that is the case?

kc
[1] https://www.w3.org/TR/2014/REC-rdf11-concepts-20140225/

On 7/8/16 8:11 AM, Arnaud Le Hors wrote:
> Ok, but this isn't just a matter of hiding this when SPARQL is hidden. I
> still want to understand what that sentence means when SPARQL isn't
> hiddene. So, can you tell me what this sentence is supposed to be saying?
>
> A node scope with value $scopeNode, defines $scopeNode as the node
> in-scope in the data graph.
>
> The way it reads to me is that a node scope has a variable $scopeNode as
> a value, and that this defines the variable as the "node in-scope". What
> does it mean for a scope node to have a value? And How does a node scope
> with a value define the value as the "node in-scope"? And shouldn't that
> rather be "node in scope"??
>
> As I said I just can't parse this sentence. I'd appreciate if someone
> could rephrase.
>
> Unfortunately the spec remains hard to read and understand because of
> stuff like this so I second the sentiment Karen conveys from the
> community she represents. I understand English isn't the editors'
> primary language and that's ok but given that I strongly encourage them
> to welcome comments pointing these problems out.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> Arnaud  Le Hors - Senior Technical Staff Member, Open Web Technologies -
> IBM Cloud
>
>
>
>
> From:        Dimitris Kontokostas <kontokostas@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>
> To:        Arnaud Le Hors/Cupertino/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc:        Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net>, public-data-shapes-wg
> <public-data-shapes-wg@w3.org>
> Date:        07/08/2016 01:38 AM
> Subject:        Re: $variables
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> You are right,
> although the button exists we the spec does not flow well in some cases
> when the sparql definitions are hidden
> Holger created an issue to track this and we will try to have it ready
> for review by the next call
>
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Arnaud Le Hors <_lehors@us.ibm.com_
> <mailto:lehors@us.ibm.com>> wrote:
> I have to agree with Karen. In fact, I will admit that I don't
> understand what this sentence means:
>
> A node scope with value $scopeNode, defines $scopeNode as the node
> in-scope in the data graph.
>
> Actually, I can't even quite parse this sentence. What's with that
> comma? What's the subject of "defines"?
>
> I do understand the following:
>
> Node scopes are defined with the sh:scopeNode predicate. The values of
> sh:scopeNode can be a IRIs or literals.
>
> Although the "a" seems to be a typo.
> --
> Arnaud  Le Hors - Senior Technical Staff Member, Open Web Technologies -
> IBM Cloud
>
>
> Karen Coyle <_kcoyle@kcoyle.net_ <mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>> wrote on
> 07/07/2016 08:52:00 PM:
>
>> From: Karen Coyle <_kcoyle@kcoyle.net_ <mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>>
>> To: _public-data-shapes-wg@w3.org_ <mailto:public-data-shapes-wg@w3.org>
>> Date: 07/07/2016 08:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: $variables
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/7/16 4:59 PM, Holger Knublauch wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 8/07/2016 9:45, Karen Coyle wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 7/7/16 3:42 PM, Holger Knublauch wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 8/07/2016 8:35, Karen Coyle wrote:
>> >>>> On the call today I was told that the way to avoid the
> complication of
>> >>>> the $variables in the spec is to choose not to view the SPARQL in the
>> >>>> draft. However, even with the SPARQL hidden, the $variables are still
>> >>>> visible since they are part of the explanatory text. So this does not
>> >>>> solve the problem, and in fact it probably makes it worse because
>> >>>> without the SPARQL the $variables make even less sense. For example,
>> >>>> with SPARQL definitions hidden, you see:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> **********
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 2.1.1 Node scopes (sh:scopeNode)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A node scope with value $scopeNode, defines $scopeNode as the node
>> >>>> in-scope in the data graph.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Node scopes are defined with the sh:scopeNode predicate. The
> values of
>> >>>> sh:scopeNode can be a IRIs or literals.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> *************
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I think they need to be removed from the text, and moved into the
>> >>>> SPARQL code area, and the text should be complete without using them.
>> >>>
>> >>> That would be fine with me. I had used the values in SPARQL-like $
>> >>> notation to make it easier to read for those who are familiar with
>> >>> SPARQL because the SPARQL query and its description would match.
> But if
>> >>> the WG thinks this is too geeky, we can just drop the $ sign and
> change
>> >>> the CSS style around these variables.
>> >>>
>> >>> I do wonder what audience are we talking about here? What in
> particular
>> >>> is difficult to understand about the $ variables? The spec is not a
>> >>> tutorial...
>> >>>
>> >>> Holger
>> >>
>> >> Holger, you always trot out this "not a tutorial" like anyone who has
>> >> any problem with the spec is some kind of backward dunce. I wish you
>> >> would be less condescending and more open to hearing suggestions. The
>> >> folks who brought this up are key RDF programmers on projects like
>> >> Europeana and DPLA. Hardly novices. But believe them when they say
>> >> that it makes the reading and comprehension more difficult. Do not
>> >> disparage them.
>> >
>> > The suggested change here is to drop the $ character before variable
>> > names in the scope section. I am really surprised this would make a
>> > difference, but said I have no problems with that.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure it isn't just a matter of dropping the $ - it doesn't
>> make sense to say:
>>
>> "A node scope with value scopeNode, defines scopeNode as the node
>> in-scope in the data graph."
>>
>> So some more adjustment of the text is going to be needed. Especially
>> because there is sometimes more about SPARQL in the text, such as:
>>
>> *********
>> 2.1.1 Node scopes (sh:scopeNode)
>>
>> A node scope with value $scopeNode, defines $scopeNode as the node
>> in-scope in the data graph.
>>
>> Node scopes are defined with the sh:scopeNode predicate. The values of
>> sh:scopeNode can be a IRIs or literals.
>>
>> The following SPARQL query specifies the semantics of node scopes. The
>> variable $scopeNode is assumed to be pre-bound to the given value of
>> sh:scopeNode.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> It doesn't make sense to say "The following SPARQL query...." when the
>> SPARQL query is hidden.
>>
>> If we can agree on parameters of the edits, I'd be happy to pitch in a
>> do some or all of the work. I'd say that the last paragraph belongs with
>> the SPARQL code, and the first sentence needs a different value example,
>> which should be uniform throughout where possible.
>>
>> I'd also reverse the first two paragraphs, which I think increases
>> readability.
>>
>> kc
>>
>> >
>> > What else would be needed to make the document more readable for the
>> > audience you are referring to?
>> >
>> > Anyway, I think you are over-reacting in your personal criticism. I am
>> > merely collecting information to help me fulfill my editing role. If I
>> > were to accept every single viewpoint without asking for clarifications
>> > we would never reach a fixpoint - there are just too many different
>> > viewpoints and potential audiences here.
>> >
>> > Holger
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Karen Coyle
>> _kcoyle@kcoyle.net_ <mailto:kcoyle@kcoyle.net>_http://kcoyle.net_
> <http://kcoyle.net/>
>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>> skype: kcoylenet/_+1-510-984-3600_ <tel:%2B1-510-984-3600>
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Dimitris Kontokostas
> Department of Computer Science, University of Leipzig & DBpedia Association
> Projects: _http://dbpedia.org_ <http://dbpedia.org/>,
> _http://rdfunit.aksw.org_ <http://rdfunit.aksw.org/>,
> _http://aligned-project.eu_ <http://aligned-project.eu/>
> Homepage: _http://aksw.org/DimitrisKontokostas_
> Research Group: AKSW/KILT _http://aksw.org/Groups/KILT_
>
>
>

-- 
Karen Coyle
kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
m: 1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600

Received on Friday, 8 July 2016 15:57:05 UTC