- From: CSS Meeting Bot via GitHub <sysbot+gh@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:45:29 +0000
- To: public-css-archive@w3.org
The Working Group just discussed `text-spacing: space-first`, and agreed to the following resolutions: * `RESOLVED: Add this value, suggest it's the default in epubs and add a open issue wondering if should be in the web in general` <details><summary>The full IRC log of that discussion</summary> <dael> Topic: text-spacing: space-first<br> <dael> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2462<br> <dael> florian: Kindle does this (shows image from github) Interesting thing to note is the opening corner bracket. These glyphs have whitespace in them and it's been trimmed. We have a property that allows this to be one or odd. But Kindle decided to just trim.<br> <dael> florian: Some amount of trimming is typically wanted by Japanese typographers and publishers which is likely why the default. But what it doesn't isn't want Japanese people want.<br> <dael> florian: Kinoopy does much closer. Inline in the middle of a paragraph trim, but at the beginning set full-width.<br> <dael> florian: This is what people in Japan mostly want.<br> <dael> Rossen: What's the significance?<br> <dael> fantasai: Indentation.<br> <dael> florian: Way we spec things if you want this effect you need to a 1em text intent and you want to hang opening punct. That would give you this but that's not how they do it.<br> <dael> florian: The brackets are a quotation mark.<br> <dael> myles: Not jsut af ull width character?<br> <dael> florian: They're not using text indent, they're putting a space character at the beginning of the line. Brackets at teh end are not trim but the one in the middle is trim. How they do it is dirty but the effect is what they want.<br> <dael> florian: Murakami-san suggests we add a value to text-space, I think called space-first. We have trim-start and space-start and he suggests a value that's space on the first line trim on the rest.<br> <dael> florian: It would allow being compat on this type of content. It's regrettable they do it this way but it might as well be compat. Even if you don't consider hacky-layouts this is prob a good default for Japanese in general.<br> <dael> florian: Because trimming at the start of lines except the first is really a good thing.<br> <dael> astearns: Otherwise you assume it's a paragraph.<br> <dael> florian: Trimming at the start of lines is good, but at the first line content...some paragraphs are visible because the first line has an indent.<br> <dael> astearns: Why not solve this by having you use trim-start and text-indent and hanging punct correct for Japanese...ah, because then the mid paragraph would hang.<br> <dael> fantasai: It wouldn't.<br> <dael> astearns: Why not use text-indent and trim start?<br> <dael> fantasai: We can't by default.<br> <dael> florian: Right, he's suggesting this exist and be on by default.<br> <dael> florian: This ideal cannot be on by default because it's not backwards compat. That's kind of redundant, but it can be on by default which is nice.<br> <dael> astearns: And he goes through why my suggeestion is wrong in the issue. He says you can't apply this to current Japanese ebooks because the epub guidelines.<br> <dael> florian: It's a combonation of defaults and legacy and having this value would work okay for all of these.<br> <dael> fantasai: Reasonable to me. Big issue is we have a standard for how ebooks are written which is incompat with...this would make them look good and not doing this would not.<br> <dael> florian: epubs would look better and the web as it is would start looking better as well. WE can do this by default.<br> <dael> astearns: And the current default is bad.<br> <dael> florian: Right.<br> <dael> koji: NO strong opinion. This is about...the paragraph starts with one idographic space?<br> <dael> florian: If you look at the example with an idographic space instead of an indent or an opening punct. If there's one that happens to wrpa in the middle of the line that should be trimmed. That's what epub authors assume. If we don't do it epub looks bad. It will helpt hte web too. Only slightly for the web at the firstp punct but given that trim-start isn't done currently it's bad.<br> <dael> koji: space-first has nothing to do with space?<br> <dael> florian: Name is strange it means trim on non-first-lines. Why it's called space-first we have trim-start and space-start and space-start means don't trim. This is space first trim the rest. THat's a bit long so it's called space-first<br> <dael> fantasai: I'm not convinced this is the right thing for the web in general. For flush paragraphs why would you have a space only if it begins with a bracket. but epub needs this so we should add.<br> <dael> florian: In general you want trimming on the web. Not trimming the first isn't desireable, it's just safer.<br> <dael> fantasai: If you're not using indentation of any form...?<br> <dael> florian: Maybe you're not.<br> <Joel> myles: So using @supports for color fonts formats yes (sorry for the delay!) I will open the issue on the GitHub asap<br> <Joel> Sure!<br> <dael> florian: You only do this on your block quotes. The argument is that it isn't always desired it's the removing the space is always bad.<br> <dael> fantasai: I think we should add the value. I think the correct default is trim everything and is there ontent that would break.<br> <dael> astearns: Murakami-san says it would. Many will improve visually but some will break.<br> <dael> koji: Apart form the default I understand the desire. But that makes me think maybe we can use first-line and we're done.<br> <dael> florian: It's only interesting if it's the default. If it's not default we have other opt-in ways.<br> <dael> fantasai: It needs to be the defualt in epubs. If it's the initial or it's in their default stlesheet I'm not sure of the answer. It seems clear it's needed<br> <dael> astearns: Prop: Add this value, suggest it's the default in epubs and add a open issue wondering if should be in the web in general<br> <dael> RESOLVED: Add this value, suggest it's the default in epubs and add a open issue wondering if should be in the web in general<br> <dael> fantasai: Does guide tell people to lang tag?<br> <dael> florian: We can check. So you apply based on lang tag.<br> </details> -- GitHub Notification of comment by css-meeting-bot Please view or discuss this issue at https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2462#issuecomment-380500354 using your GitHub account
Received on Wednesday, 11 April 2018 15:45:34 UTC