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Re: [csswg-drafts] [css-rhythm-1] Avoiding accidental double spacing

From: CSS Meeting Bot via GitHub <sysbot+gh@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 17:00:43 +0000
To: public-css-archive@w3.org
Message-ID: <issue_comment.created-332587878-1506531630-sysbot+gh@w3.org>
The Working Group just discussed `Avoiding accidental double spacing`.

<details><summary>The full IRC log of that discussion</summary>
&lt;dael> Topic: Avoiding accidental double spacing<br>
&lt;tantek> is it just a button? I thought this was the first draft on the new system?<br>
&lt;dael> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/938<br>
&lt;tantek> thanks astearns, noting here FTR:  https://drafts.csswg.org/css-multicol/#changes<br>
&lt;koji> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/938#issuecomment-330561882<br>
&lt;dael> koji: The biggest problem for me isI'm failing to understand definition. I made this example ^<br>
&lt;dael> koji: astearns gave me feedback that...the left most in the e xample is normal. Second I applied line-grid. I applied line-box contain to third.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: Second block has some double spacing but astearns says they're all intentional. Is that common understanding within this group?<br>
&lt;dael> myles: I think you're asking me?<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Everyone.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: Yeah. We need to distinguish intentional and accidental double spacing and there isn't a clear definition.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: The second box is [missed] it happens accidental when font metric is only slightly larger. is that correct?<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: one thing I missed when I commented is that in your example you are not chaning line height. it's all the same, but there are some fallback fonts making some lines taller.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: Correct. it started with line-height normal and it does double step.<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Right. With that new understanding I believe you are correct that this is an example of the problem stated by the issue. 2nd is accidental line spacing because the author had line height normal and the grid set to something without double spacing.<br>
&lt;rachelandrew> someone will need to point me to how to publish the WD, me being a newbie.<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: IN my mind this is an intentional result of the feature. You use rhythm to get consistant spacing, but the content is such that you don't get it, so the spacing is forced by the grid so the result is what authors should expect.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: Okay.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: Are you saying this is intentional or acicdedntal?<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Accidental in that if the author didn't know what content would go into their grid, they didn't have control over the fonts used, the person settin gup line grid might not have expected it. But they chose a rhythm, chose a grid, so we're fitting author intent of using a grid.<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: I think this is an example o f the issue as stated. I personally don't think the issue is terrifically important because author said they wanted to use a grid or rhythm.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: Thank you, that is exactly my understanding. florian do you have different opinion?<br>
&lt;dael> florian: I'm struggling with how to say my opinion in 10 minutes when in last F2F we tried to discuss and didn't conclude in 2 horus.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: I think when you have a case of line-height normal and then step to a value and large fallback the feature works as intended. Similar case, technically, is line-height: normal line-height-step to a specific value, and the main font on the engine happens to be a little too big and everything is double spaced. That' snot what authros want and I don't know how to fix that.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: First problem happens with line-grid but the second one you don't have the same problem becuase line-grid falls out of main font size.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: but if you go to single grid in that case lines overlap. Grid is fixed height, line-height is normal, and main font is lager.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Line-grid you don't set it. That's the point.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: what you're saying is line unit is fixed size and line-height: normal and the primary font is taller then spec. unit. Is that the case?<br>
&lt;dael> florian: I think yes, I didn't hear you clearly.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: If you compress the font to a single unit they overlap. You said the font is taller then the unit, right?<br>
&lt;dael> florian: What unit?/<br>
&lt;dael> koji: Let me confirm. You said unit is fixed size.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: I said line-step-height is fixed, line-height is normal. That font on that system gives a line-height taller then step you set for primmary font.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: If the font is taller and you try and fit in a single step you overlap, right?<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Line-height is normal. They're larger then your step so you double space everything.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: Yousaid that's a problem?<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Yes.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Double space everything is a problem if the rhythm works in general and some fallback is taller that's working as intended. If everything is double spaced that's not working as intended.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Primary font...I can't do this in 5 minutes.<br>
&lt;fantasai> florian: I tried for hours and failed.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: [missed] We mostly discussed which features people break and htat's not related.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: For the sake of furthering this, I think in summary I've heard that florian's main objection is in case of fallback font being slightly lrge then primary you will have double spacing when fallback font is used.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: That is how it works and ingeneral not a problem.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: And because of this you expect everything will have double spacing?<br>
&lt;dael> florian: No, what I'm saying is when the autho sets a value for line-step-height they don't know what the result of line height calculation will be so they cannot set it in a reliable way. So there is a possibility that things will look right on one browser and not in the other because different font metrics. That's not what hte author wants and a limmitation. The double space everywhere on every brwoser is what's wanted.<br>
&lt;dael> koji: I think I understand your point much better. I'll prepare another test to see if my understanding is correct.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Sounds great. How about we try and wrap here. Seems like there's more clarity for koji in test cases you need to look at. Why don't you create the test cases and bring them back.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: We'll take time during F2F on this, but if we can resolve before even better.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Okay for both of you?<br>
&lt;dael> koji: Okay for me.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: I have no obj to koji trying things out. I don't think it'll change what I think of this feature.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: That's the top of the hour. Have a great day/night and we'll talk next week.<br>
&lt;tantek> next week is different time right?<br>

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Received on Wednesday, 27 September 2017 17:00:42 UTC

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