Re: [csswg-drafts] [css-backgrounds] 'border' shorthand resets 'border-image' but can't set it

The Working Group just discussed `Shorthands resetting properties they cannot set`.

<details><summary>The full IRC log of that discussion</summary>
&lt;dael> Topic: Shorthands resetting properties they cannot set<br>
&lt;dael> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2108<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: With the intro of border-image and border resetting it but not setting it I started getting feedback from unhappy users where when the set the default border they don't get the border shorthand anymore. Even after I expl they don't accept it.<br>
&lt;fantasai> fwiw, I agree with fremy/Florian/AmeliaBr's comments on the www-style thread.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: I got agressive feedback that the web is about border and no one cares about border image. Beyond the tone, they have a point. WE changed something that worked in one way for many years and it does impact how people edit the stylesheet.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: border-image usage is almost 0. The designers that pinged me replied almost always no we don't use it.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: It's a steamroller to kill a fly<br>
&lt;bradk> 😢<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: In the case of border I think we made a mistake. The argument about :blank was don't change things for web compat and here we changed a thing without caring about compat and we have a problem.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: What I'm struggling to understand...if we take into account the few people that use border-image it does make sense. Is the argument that we should remove border-image? I don't htink you're saying that. But if we don't I feel like the behavior for people who do use it is something we need to care about. Both situations are bad. I don't want to disagree but I feel alternative is worse.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: Let's talk stats. border is on 99% of website, but border-image is 0.0something % and mostly with initial value. I think numbers should favor 99%<br>
&lt;Rossen> https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/usage/?q=border-image<br>
&lt;dael> florian: But within 99% it's a smaller group. It's those who manipluate in a certain way.<br>
&lt;AmeliaBR> Has anyone made a list of other shorthands that have similar behavior? Font is one (with respect to new font-variant properties), but I think it should be possible to allow the full font-variant options to be specified without breaking anything.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: We're breaking habits of people writing the technology. They have the habit of being able to define 4 borders and ge the thoserhand. IT's not happening anymore. We're breaking the way they work.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Not 99%. Not everyone uses graphical editors.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: I agree, but anyone who manipulates OM gets a border-image.<br>
&lt;Rossen> https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/usage/css/border-image-repeat/<br>
&lt;Rossen> I suggest looking at the data a bit more before making the call<br>
&lt;dael> dbaron: Back whenwe  changed border-image syntax and I'm guessing like in 2012 we had significant compat problems. That was 5 years ago. There's real usage and I don't see how we change this without causing as much problems today.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen: Quick scan of border-image-repeat is used 63% with things like youtube, msn.  I wouldn't say border-image isn't used.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: But border-image source is almost unused.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: I'm proposing to stop resetting border-image with border shorthand<br>
&lt;dbaron> my post from 2012, which I had to cite a lot in response to compat problems, was https://dbaron.org/log/20120612-border-image<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Alternative. Issue is we have boder:this rule then we use border top blue, why do we have to split it out? It seems like a lot of writing that doesn't need to happen.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Through graphical tools people click on each border seperately and expect that to synth into shorthand.<br>
&lt;dael> florian: It's valid, I don't buy it's dominante<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen: In this use case I set only top border I do using the short hand? That makes no sense.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: No, when you jsut do border top you use border-top. But when you want to do t/l/r/b you want to use the border shorthand.<br>
&lt;fantasai> border: thin solid red + border-top: solid blue doesn't need to split everything into longhands. It can just be serialized out as 'border: thin solid red; border-top: solid blue'<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen: There's one way to represent things during editing and represent fidelity of what's been changed. THere is a different case of what do you do when you export the final style sheet that you have serialized based on what the user did.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen: If we're talking about the export and you want to re-importit and change it, because you export shorthands as much as possible, which is great, but if this is the motivational example where you have to round trip the shorthand, that is a stretch.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: Motivation for change, there are quite a few projects embedding chrome or moz. to do specific positioning editors. All will hit this issue and all will need to impl a hack bc/ this is not what web designers expect. We have messages from web designers and we're not listening.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: WE did this alone and did this at a time without wed designer feedback. Now we have it and we're not listening.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: It strikes me that we're trying to gather web designer feedback at conferences, but here we have feedback and we'r enot lsitening.<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Feedback of outputting these longhands is reasonable. You should output something closer to how a hand user would od it.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: This is not true. We changed a 21 year old behavior.<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: It's been like that for a while. border and abackgrounds and border-image have been like that since we went to CR.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: And people are seeing it only now. And people are really upset. They do not accept the explinations. It's the first time I got insults.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: Do waht you want but we cannot ask for feedback, get agressive feedback, and say wellll<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: It's not jsut border-image. There will be additional things and thye'll get output too.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: We have a chance between resetting or putting a warning in the specsaying you should make sure you put out the right thing. WEb designers thought second was better.<br>
&lt;fantasai> http://glazman.org/tmp/border-shorthand.html shows the addition of a simple rule blows up the shorthand. Whether border-image is part of that blow-up or not, it still blows up.<br>
&lt;fantasai> The solution isn't to change what's reset, it's to not blow up the shorthand.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen: Can I propose something? First, thank you for bringing this and being on the front of taking the heat. Sounds like this issue will become fairly lively on GH. I think the intro of the problem has been clearly stated. What if we discuss further on GH and try and get a broader WG audience after the holiday.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen: I don't htink anyone is trying to say shut up we won't change or we won't listen because we decided in a vaccuum. I'm personally trying to think through actual use cases. If you give us a chance to read more and discuss perhaps we'll get close to consensus.<br>
&lt;fantasai> Changing the output of that case to #a { border-color: blue red red; border-style: solid; border-width: thin; -moz-border-top-colors: none; -moz-border-left-colors: none; -moz-border-bottom-colors: none; -moz-border-right-colors: none; }<br>
&lt;fantasai> isn't going to make it better.<br>
&lt;dael> glazou: Best us case case click on each of the four borders and you expect border shorthand to appear. I'll put that on GH.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen: THis sounds like a great use case.<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: So we'll continue discussing this on GH. glazou please ask people to comment on GH and not www-style.<br>
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Received on Wednesday, 20 December 2017 17:52:50 UTC