[MINUTES] CCG Weekly 2025-09-03

CCG Weekly Meeting Summary - 2025/09/03

*Attendees:* Denken Chen, Pindar Wong, Will Abramson

*Topics Covered:*

   -

   *APAC CCG Call Series:* The primary focus was planning a series of
   APAC-friendly CCG calls in October leading up to TPAC in Kobe, Japan. The
   goal is to increase APAC community participation and engagement in CCG
   activities, potentially leading to a dedicated APAC CCG chair and regular
   calls.
   -

   *Meeting Time and Frequency:* The optimal time for the APAC calls was
   discussed, aiming for a time convenient for attendees across the region. A
   time shift to later in the day was considered to better accommodate the
   broader APAC region, particularly India and Indonesia. Frequency was
   initially proposed as weekly, but later discussion suggested a less
   frequent schedule (bi-weekly or monthly) might be more sustainable.
   -

   *Speaker Selection and Outreach:* Identifying and inviting speakers for
   the October call series was a key discussion point. Potential speakers were
   suggested, focusing on relevant projects and initiatives within the APAC
   region, particularly relating to digital identity, verifiable credentials,
   and education. The importance of showcasing successful implementations,
   particularly from India, was highlighted.
   -

   *Community Building and Engagement:* Strategies for building community
   and encouraging participation from APAC members beyond just observing were
   discussed. Ideas included interactive sessions, breakout groups, and a
   focus on practical use cases.

*Key Points:*

   - There's a need for increased APAC representation and engagement within
   the CCG.
   - The October call series is an experiment to test the viability of
   APAC-focused calls.
   - Finding an optimal meeting time across multiple time zones is crucial
   for success.
   - The focus should be on engaging speakers and topics relevant to the
   APAC region, including successful implementations of verifiable credentials.
   - Community building and fostering interactive discussions are vital for
   engagement and long-term success.
   - The education sector presents a promising area for collaboration and
   engagement due to its widespread interest and relevance across the APAC
   region.
   - The initial meeting time was proposed as Wednesday 1 PM UK time, but
   flexibility was acknowledged based on feedback.

Text: https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-ccg-weekly-2025-09-03.md

Video: https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-ccg-weekly-2025-09-03.mp4
*CCG Weekly - 2025/09/03 04:56 EDT - Transcript* *Attendees*

Denken Chen, Pindar Wong, Will Abramson
*Transcript*

Denken Chen: Hi. Greetings. Yeah. So, yeah, very excited to have you here.
And let's wait for Will. I think he's the main person that supporting the
AP pack efforts from UK. Hey Will

Will Abramson: Hey, I think you can hear me now.

Will Abramson: Hey, Duncan. Put my camera on if you want.

Denken Chen: Hey there.

Denken Chen: So yeah.

Will Abramson: Camera. Say hi. How you doing within those things? Damn, my
messy turn my camera.

Denken Chen: I think from the registration list it's just three of us…

Denken Chen: because mashbing wasn't be able to with attending his meeting
so I will talk about a little bit on his

Will Abramson: Okay, cool.

Denken Chen: Not.

Will Abramson: That might be. which is Okay, we'll give Pinda 30 seconds.
yeah, I was thinking we could just start with a brief round of
introductions and then I'll talk about high level like the plan or my ideas
what would be nice to set up. I mean it really does depend on a AP pack
desire I guess and there's no point us doing this if it's just us three
showing up to these calls throughout October.

Will Abramson: So I don't know what your sense of that is and maybe we need
to find a different time that is on the list. but at the same time this is
a coordination call so it's not just for the general public in that sense I
suppose.

Denken Chen: Hey, great.

Will Abramson: Hey yeah no problem.

Pindar Wong: Hello testing.

Pindar Wong: Sorry about that. I was just finding a quiet place. Hey
everyone, thank you.

Will Abramson: Okay, I will put my camera just a little bit.

Pindar Wong: Just wanted to say thanks for just arranging this call at a
reasonable time in Asia Pac. I just a little disappointed that we don't
have more people. fully I can't say will you're planning some events next
month in October and…

Will Abramson: Yeah, I would like to Mhm.

Pindar Wong: out of the world and one of the things that's always struck me
as far as my agenda since I've been following the work of this group for
years is trying to get more take up I guess now that things are a lot more
advanced from just sort of the old CCG stuff will

Pindar Wong: Manu be joining.

Will Abramson: No. No. Yeah, this is not a good I think Mario can't join
these.

Pindar Wong: Okay. Yep.

Will Abramson: My plan was this would be like a EU AP pack sort of series
of calls.

Pindar Wong: Mhm. Yep.

Will Abramson: at least initially, Because I'm in London. And maybe we can
just go around and do a brief introductions for everyone because it' be
nice know. I don't know if you guys know each other. maybe just name like
company and…

Pindar Wong: No, I mean, go ahead.

Will Abramson: I kind of said what you'd hope to get out what would this
look like if it's successful? so I'll go first. Yeah, I'm Will. I'm based
in London. I work for Legendary Requirements which is primarily in the US
really. I'm the only person in the EU region. I too would like to have more
of a focus in the EU and I think because the problem with APAC right is
it's like this cycle right you either have EU and APAC or APAC and the US
but my goal for this sort of series would be to start to build a community
in Apac that knows and then to have this October series turn into a regular
Apac CCG call.

Will Abramson: how frequent that would depend on Apac uptake, but
potentially we could do one every week if there's desire. And then longer
term, I would love to see the CCG have maybe a chair, from the APAC region.
So there's a chair from the EU, and a chair from the US. And then we could
even cycle round okay this is a UK or EU US call but we'd also have a EU
APAC call and we'd have an AP pack US call. That's a long hairy goal if you
like but I think it would be nice to see that sort of collaboration
happening and…
00:05:00

Pindar Wong: Yep.

Will Abramson: then you'd have these ideas circulating between all of the
continents… which would be cool. thanking one of

Will Abramson:

Denken Chen: Okay, so my turn and…

Denken Chen: I'm Den Chen. I've been involved in the 3C since last T pack I
think. I working with the government here in Taiwan called Moda the
Ministry of Digital Affairs and we have been building a digital identity
wallet based on W3C standards including D and VC and we are also kick
offing some other foreign or international workshops since last year. So I
think we will be in collaboration with more people or organization across
the APEC region.

Denken Chen: So I think it's a great opportunity to when we are going to
have our APC friendly meetings we will more likely to help invite speakers
to share to I think not just in APAC region but also to the world about
their business or…

Will Abramson: H. Cool.

Denken Chen: their product or their findings that so personally I have also
shared the Taiwan digital identity wallet I think in May in CCG. So I
personally can do another call as well for other following apps.

Pindar Wong: Sure.

Denken Chen: So we can talk about the possibility later. Absolute three
times.

Pindar Wong: I'm Pinder g. Originally based in Hong Kong. I guess I retired
a few years ago depending how one defines retirement. been around I guess
the CCG since the beginning. before that it was web payments. my
introduction and inspiration was Manu Spawny who I've been involved with
different aspects of standards work and primarily the domain name system in
the late '9s and have always tried to get more technical involvement from
this part of the world if only because most of the people are sort of the
human population and so I'm really here as a cheerleader I guess I try and
follow everything from the mailing

Pindar Wong: ironically, now I have more time to do so than previously over
the last 101 15 years.

Pindar Wong: I particularly wanted to be in this call because you were
quite inspirational and reaching out having sort of the original wikis and
I mean it just takes a lot of ground work. that said, I've been trying to
participate in standards work for 30 something years and it literally
always turns out that Asia pack gets the short end of the straw for
historical reasons.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: But particularly I am concerned about the drift towards
private protocols and…

Pindar Wong: and those developing protocols and standards in public is
hurting cats and a lot of people now have lots of market access and they
can come to different standards groups saying we propose our standard and
in many ways they may have already deployed it and so the ability

Will Abramson: Mhm. Yeah. Mhm.

Pindar Wong: the viability of having standards developed in a public fora
where everyone is either equally disadvantage or equally advantaged is
something is of a bit of a personal belief and so notwithstanding you've
got the dead stuff now standardized I think second edition right and all
the stuff that's coming along I do feel that this notion of bottomup
standards development is something that should be preserved and there's a
cost to that. notwithstanding that Den's got association with his
governments etc. we seem to be drifting. This is more a political statement
but basically in the early internet we didn't see flags, So we had this
global network which was by definition nation not international. In other
words, it was this global internet phenomenon but it wasn't negotiated by
nation state actors.

Pindar Wong: and the last few years we have sort of nations fighting back
in a big way. and so particularly I feel it's at this time even more
important to demonstrate that the public solicitation process the relative
openness of it with all its mess is the right way to do things. Okay. So
principally right now I'm involved with cryptocurrencies but specifically
the achine economy.
00:10:00

Will Abramson: Mhm. Is that creepy?

Pindar Wong: So these are the belief that a wallet on every device in other
words that you can have some agent and control of its private keys. and
most recently at least for the last five years I've been thinking that's
now an incredibly bad idea.

Pindar Wong: So with AI is now bribing humans to hearing tests etc. So
principally I've been sucked into or I choose to spend my time on being a
skeptic of AGI. and so where this relates to ds is in some Drummond Reed
has this other sort of first person view. And so I'm just trying to make
sure that we don't have to prove ourselves to machines but machines can
also need to prove ourselves to us. And the example here is with so my
daily driver is cubes. It's an OS that sort of as a hypervisor on bare
metal and that tries to protect something called anti-vilm attacks.

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Pindar Wong: So the anti-vil made attack is basically trying to demonstrate
that the machine is exactly in the state that you expect it to be in. So
this is using the TPM in quite a interesting way. So I'm just trying to
make sure that there's sort of various different balances of power in some
sense.

Will Abramson: Mhm. Yeah, cool.

Pindar Wong: So, not only do we have sort of proof of personhood or
whatever that we're alive, blink three times, look left, blink three times,
look right, how do I know that the machine is the machine I'm expecting to
prove myself to? And so that principally involves not just endpoints.

Pindar Wong: I'm principally interested in the relationships between not
the end points of the graph but the actual edges…

Pindar Wong: because I think it's very difficult to fake context and one
too old.

Will Abramson: Yeah, I mean it sounds like to me you would make a good
candidate,…

Will Abramson: what I want to do on this call is, potentially we have up to
six sessions to schedule. I think maybe you could do an interesting talk
about this sort of system that you're building if you're interested.

Pindar Wong: Too old.

Will Abramson: No. Come on.

Pindar Wong: I'm actually looking to I mean for many years we had this I
think one of this the sort of next generation issue.

Will Abramson: You're talking right now. It's got to be …

Pindar Wong: So we had APNG the next generation and a lot of us old types
are trying to inspire the next generation to come forward and I think we
failed miserably.

Will Abramson: you got Okay.

Pindar Wong: Right. So the last reason

Denken Chen: Yeah, I'm interested that the P mentioned that you're in
Thailand,…

Denken Chen: but you come from Hong Kong, right? Yeah.

Pindar Wong: Yes. Mhm.

Denken Chen: Do you have any connections there? I mean not just in Hong
Kong but also in Thailand because I know that Titan people probably from
the government side they're also investigating some digital identity stuff
and…

Pindar Wong: And digital economy I don't know.

Denken Chen: Because So I think there will be also a lot of including you
but also some other teams will be interested in this course right I think
that's all the same here from Taiwan and…

Will Abramson: Yeah. Mhm.

Pindar Wong: I mean part of the skepticism I have is what I call the fast
follower mentality. So people who don't necessarily want to spend all the
time, effort, energy developing stuff, but the minute it's standardized,
then just take and run with it. Sure.

Will Abramson: You have

Denken Chen: that yeah some sometimes I will say it's

Pindar Wong: Sure, but you lose the fingerprints. the actual agency is in
the messy bit at the beginning and people don't see that. And moreover, you
don't develop the expertise in what I would call being relatively
open-minded. I mean, I think the IETF has similar issues, You have people
who get very very experienced and then for various different reasons
something doesn't quite happen that they can't transfer that. so I do think
there's a question mark over public protocols and the public standards
process because sort of doing it privately is much and having market sway
is arguably more efficient. In this case it's different though. We've got
the ds already there. We've got VCs that are already there. Then it's kind
of just saying which is your use case and demonstrating it. yeah. Go ahead,
Will.
00:15:00

Will Abramson: I'm just going to share my screen and I have a brief agenda.
I mean there's some things that I want to get through today and really the
first is you can see my screen right I mean I can share this document too…

Will Abramson:

Pindar Wong: Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson: but first is why October is because TAC is in coobe Japan
and really from my work in the did working group I realized there's not
really any participation apart from Denan in that group and there is a
barrier to work in the did working group right you have to be a paid member
of the W3C whereas the CTG is a much lower barrier Yeah.

Pindar Wong: Really? Sure, sure, sure, sure. Mhm.

Will Abramson: And from my other co-chair, Harrison, he tells me that there
is quite a high watch rate, people will watch the video, the recording. and
so it just tells me, there isn't really a space for the APAC community to
be in conversation,…

Pindar Wong: Mhm.

Will Abramson: it feels and maybe the CCG can fulfill that function. So I
really just wanted to run this is an experiment, in the runup to TAC, I was
thinking October. So, we've got a month to just figure out what that agenda
looks like. We could run a series of CCG calls, so the normal CCG calls
will still go on, but we will run a series of CCG calls ober in an APAC
friendly time. So, I looked at the calendar and there's potentially six
sessions so the question we need to decide is what time makes sense and
maybe it's this time, but I picked this 10 a.m. slot probably because I
didn't want to do 7 a.m., but I would do 7 a.m. normally. I just wanted to
have some time to prepare for this call. so I mean, because it should be a
time that is best for you guys, right? This is for the AP pack community.

Will Abramson: I'm happy to get up early and do that if that makes sense.
So, I don't know. We should talk about that a little bit, is there a time?
I mean, do we just want to use this time because it worked for us three and
we showed up or do we want to explore other times? Are there ways that are
the people who you think might attend if we could find a different time? We
want to find a time that is most beneficial for getting APAC people from
around the Pacific region into…

Will Abramson: who want to be able to attend. that's the goal. Okay. Mhm.

Pindar Wong: Yeah. …

Pindar Wong: I have some views on this, but Den, why don't you go first?

Denken Chen: Yeah, sure.

Denken Chen: So I think the timing here in Taiwan it's 5:00 in the
afternoon is great for anyone in the office. And actually I would say it
really depends on the speakers because I think here in Taiwan I'm not sure
about other Epic countries like people may or may not to attend W3C
meetings in the office or after work. what I meant is even 3 hours later it
will be 8:00 p.m. here in Taiwan. that'll be after work but not too late
into the regular B or VC working group meetings that'll be very late until
2 11 or 12 p.m.

Denken Chen: So I think that will really depends on our initial speakers or
community people…

Will Abramson: Mhm. okay.

Denken Chen: what they expected to use their time for giving a talk
probably they can do it in the office that would be great right so in this
timing would be great if they had to deliver that at night I think that be
also great for I think both from you and…

Denken Chen: also from Pintar in time zone, So that's for a time zone.

Pindar Wong: Yeah, I mean my gut feel is slightly later in the day actually
might work.

Pindar Wong: So this goes back to who the target market is and I think for
the CCG perspective I wouldn't target the corporate market so far as an
office hours.

Will Abramson: Mhm. Right.

Pindar Wong: I would basically after 6 p.m. of the economy that I think
might most benefit which to me ironically is Indonesia India. And in
particular India I mean I met with the designers of Aadhaar many years ago
with some grievances.

Pindar Wong: not grievance. they have the India stack and obviously ado's
great for what it was originally designed to do with an architectural
mindset at that point in time. and I just thought that it would be but this
was several years ago. I don't know if we have as much participation from
India. So to answer your earlier question will I mean I don't think there's
any evidence at this point to my knowledge that having these separate calls
can be justified. Okay.

Pindar Wong: So it's a chicken kick and an egg situation.
00:20:00

Will Abramson: Right. Yeah.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: In other words, there's no point just walking around having
calls, having speakers to proform outreach.

Will Abramson: Yeah.

Pindar Wong: It has to be sort of where is there either a massive installed
base and…

Will Abramson: Yeah.

Pindar Wong: I would say to my knowledge it would be India with their
architecture.

Will Abramson: Yep. Mhm.

Pindar Wong: So I'm saying I'm introducing a notion of did VC compatible.
Okay.

Pindar Wong: I'm not saying so that the architectures don't diverge in
other words that they don't go to different technical paths that they are
parallel that the developers can eventually and…

Will Abramson: …

Pindar Wong: because they've just got such a massive installed base of few
hundred million Mhm.

Will Abramson: and I think for me a big part of the CCG as I see it, at
least how it's evolved is, not being too opinionated, but creating a space
for people to bring their ideas, right, and let those ideas percolate
around the community so we can all be aware at least of…

Pindar Wong: H sure.

Will Abramson: what other people are doing and find ways that we might
collaborate. so, okay, if we went later, I mean, you said it's 5:00 p.m.
Denan, for you. I just checked it's 6 p.m. in Tokyo. So we could do three
hours later.

Pindar Wong: Mhm. that's not unreasonable.

Will Abramson: What time is it for you in Thailand?

Pindar Wong: It's 4:20 in the afternoon.

Will Abramson: Right. Okay.

Pindar Wong: I think it'll be like two o'clock I think in Bangaluru.

Will Abramson: Just before Okay.

Pindar Wong: what I would be interested in.

Will Abramson: So it's middle of the day in India. Yeah. That's what you're
saying.

Pindar Wong: So what I would like to do and here's the bit I entirely agree
with you that this sort of the space for open discussion is I think maybe
new bad ideas could be the principal benefit of this good actually…

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Pindar Wong: but that's just naughty me in terms of hearing from local
examples not necessarily directly so that this is invited but I could
outreach

Pindar Wong: to sort of the ad hoc folk and…

Will Abramson: Yes. …

Pindar Wong: say, "Hey, look, here's a system that actually has been
deployed at several hundred million people.

Will Abramson: yeah, I have good contacts at these guys…

Pindar Wong: Okay.

Will Abramson: who are the spin out of Aadhar, right? the guy who created
ADAR runs the center for digital public infrastructure and they are in
dialogue with governments around the world around …

Pindar Wong: Mhm.

Will Abramson: how do you build digital public infrastructure and in fact
in two weeks someone is going to be talking on the main CCG call around
this stuff and…

Pindar Wong: Right. Right.

Will Abramson: she put me in touch with this guy he's the chief ICT officer
for the government of Bhutan and he's maybe keen to do a talk for us.

Pindar Wong: Cool.

Will Abramson: But that it's thinking, okay, how do we get a slate of
speakers that we can then go and talk about,…

Pindar Wong: Yeah.

Will Abramson: publish on our channels and maybe just invite people who we
think might be interested. just and I think it's really about having
something regular that people can then start, these do interesting things.
I'm going to put that on my calendar and make time for it, I know this is
the time that they call at, it's regular and I can put it on and maybe I
can't make them all, but I'm going to try and make them because they do
interesting things. So, that's kind of where I'm at. we need to figure out
what is a slate of interesting people.

Pindar Wong: I mean rec right right and there are interesting just the
question that people may not know them as I said before I'm principally
interested in sort of sub 30 or…

Will Abramson: Yeah, that's Yeah.

Pindar Wong: sub 40 young engineers …

Pindar Wong: because from my perspective they're going to be taking this
stuff and running with it as oo they'll come up with they get to reinvent
the wheel right in novel and…

Will Abramson: Yeah, totally.

Will Abramson: Mhm. True.

Pindar Wong: novel ways so from my side as I said I'm happy to use sort of
my context to sort of find out local examples to either talk about what
they've done for rest of world. Okay. and…

Will Abramson: Mhm. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: just because everything is recorded and it's very easy to be
lazy because you just follow the mailing list and what have you and…

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yes.

Pindar Wong: just rewatch right do the asynchronous stuff. but you're not
going to build community from that.

Pindar Wong: And I think this is what I can't remember how many TACs have
been held in Japan but more than a handful.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: They're a big proponent of that and Junai and many of his
colleagues help help organize that. In fact, I'm quite surprised that some
of them are on the call. But regardless of which, TAC does give a reason. I
think you're in a year early to be honest.

Will Abramson: All right.

Pindar Wong: In so far as I think the best of the thing we can do is point
to drive people to TAC physically and then have a group discussion and
decision as opposed to …
00:25:00

Will Abramson: right.

Pindar Wong: and the reason I say that because success builds a success,
right?

Pindar Wong: If you have an initiative and…

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: it kind of stumbles a bit and…

Will Abramson:

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Pindar Wong: then politically or…

Pindar Wong: cosmetically people would sort of say it's never going to work
and then you get the sort of negative cycle. so I would use the physical
meetings because I think the physical stuff works in terms of the.

Will Abramson: But my sense is a lot of people from Apac…

Will Abramson: who we might be trying to target, Or build a community
around aren't going to be people who are attending TPAC…

Will Abramson: because it's far away. they might not be members of the W3C
and they just feel like I mean we would like them to attend.

Pindar Wong: It's too hard.

Will Abramson: The CCG is an easy gif,…

Pindar Wong: You mean I mean we go back to incentives.

Will Abramson: it's free, it's online, if it's in a time zone that they can
make time for so not 100 p.m. 1:00 a.m. at night or whatever, then so yeah,
I mean,…

Pindar Wong: I mean what are the incentives like W3C should say okay free
end some token one year this is the business side of things…

Will Abramson: yeah, sure.

Pindar Wong: but I agree with you that the bar may be a maybe bit high for
the type of input that you might be wanting to get so it's a catch 22 and…

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: this is the same but there's some specific things to the W3C
which make it more difficult than say other fora I don't know if that's
fair But that's the way I feel.

Denken Chen: But I think one of the interesting of CCG is that the topics
there was more broadly actually related to credentials is good enough for
any topics for that.

Denken Chen: So from my experience in Taiwan I would say because W3C
members in Taiwan there are only two of them.

Pindar Wong: Mhm. Let's go.

Denken Chen: So it's not really I would say actively involved I think in
the overall not just in the community but also on the standards I would say
that Chinese people will be more familiar with ISO standards than W3C
stands at that level I think it's kind of like how deep the standards has
involved in the industry so I think we started to

Denken Chen: gain more attractions for people for industry to know about
the WC standards and also some of the credentials topics and…

Will Abramson: Mhm. Yes, definitely.

Denken Chen: because let me just drop a few possibility possible candidates
in the chat so the touring thirds I've met…

Pindar Wong: Mh All right.

Denken Chen: then their CEO and their CTO in person and I know in person
and they have been doing a educational certification in Taiwan not quite an
official one but they already started to do some crossborder verification
and…

Will Abramson: Yes. Mhm.

Denken Chen: presented in the digital collaborations in July I remember
that we all was there too right so I think that's one kind of I could try
to invite it then with another one is the matching he was intended to join
our call but unfortunately not be able to do that.

Denken Chen: He focused on digital identity policies and he was working in
the Taiwanese government and we had a vision to put the trustees
particularly for digital identity policy to put a trust this on the public
blockchain for everyone.

Pindar Wong: Sure

Will Abramson: Yes. Yep. Mhm.

Denken Chen: So I talk about it later and we are not sure whether the tan
government will in the end doing that but that's one of our policy. I think
that that's interesting because that it's a technical solutions for some
public policies. And the third one is Kevin I met him in last Tekk and we
had a great time and I'm sure we'll know him a little bit about that
because yeah he's been involved in the VC rendering method spec right but I
know that he hasn't been involved for quite some time and possibly is
because he works with the government within the government so time zone
could be an issue for him so I think we can reach out to

Denken Chen: him to see whether he's available to talk about what's in
their plans for the rendering methods or…

Denken Chen: the open attestation I attach in the button is one of the
project I've been doing.

Pindar Wong: Mhm. Yeah.

Denken Chen: So that could also be a great topic to share. and because MOA
in the end of this year we are going to have two international forums and
we are just getting secure our speakers. So I think once we are trying to
invite more speaker to see whether they interested in our course I can
provide more candidates later.
00:30:00

Pindar Wong: Yeah, this goes to this catch 22.

Pindar Wong: I think I mean this is the true for the last decade but just
to be absolutely clear I mean our nature with government is somewhat diff
not different…

Will Abramson: Mhm. Mhm.

Pindar Wong: but there's a unique Asia relationship of every population
with its government and so I think the Hong Kong I encourage the office of
the government information officer to be a member I think they joined a few
years ago. I'm not sure if they still are. again, many of them are not
aware of how to participate in these processes. one thing that I've tried
to focus on albeit not that successful is in the one area that I thought
there is a commonality now that we have the verifiable credentials and…

Pindar Wong: that was in the VCEDU group.

Pindar Wong: So the sort of credentiings with respect to academic or quasi
or education pretty large and so that I think is one area that's sort of
motherhood. It's said high enough that I think everyone is in agreement
that our relationship improving not necessarily competence but that we've
got some sort of qualification in…

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: what we call certificate based cultures that I have a
certificate for this I have a certificate for that is something that might
actually work the question of starting points

Pindar Wong: So one starting point is those national identity systems which
are in some sense untouchable but are also de And so sure sure.

Will Abramson: And I think it would be super interesting to hear if this is
not a place where we're going to attack them, but we just want them to
present their system, and I think people would learn a lot from it because
often it happens behind closed doors or over there and it's not really
associated with our credential. we also do things over here and
unfortunately we don't learn that much crossation. Cool.

Pindar Wong: So, let me take it upon myself to reach out to some of the
architects of ADHA. and…

Will Abramson: Cool. Yeah,…

Pindar Wong: because that's the one I think is live and…

Will Abramson: that would be great.

Pindar Wong: and see what we can I mean just an opportunity to share. the
other one being again from our side seeing what we can pull in in terms of
the VCEDU group.

Pindar Wong: because I think that's an area that would have both enough
government interest and individual interests. and I know Taiwan is very big
on the open courseware. and all the sort of the stuff that we do with
creative comments which was a sort of liberal copyright licensing and those
are the areas that I think I mean the education it's something that
everyone has an interest in and you can get government not necessarily
blessing but not rejection maybe the best possible outcome

Will Abramson: No, I mean this all sounds great.

Will Abramson: I think so typically how the CCG Harrison manages this very
complicated spreadsheet which I have forked and just kind of wiped
basically.

Pindar Wong: Mhm.

Will Abramson: depending on the day does Wednesday work for example is that
a good day for everyone so if we said because I think at the end of the day
we could poll again and ask people I mean and maybe what we do is we pick a
time and we just ask for any concerns but I'm proposing we pick a time
which is Wednesday at 1 p.m. UK which would be 3 hours later than now which
I think you guys seems to be okay so it's a bit in the evening…

Denken Chen: Yeah. Is that it?

Pindar Wong: Yeah. Let me Yeah.

Will Abramson:

Will Abramson: but also 3 p.m. UK, Means East Coast, US might also be able
to join, which would be nice. if they get up early enough. so yeah, I think
maybe we just propose that. And then the question, …

Pindar Wong: Sure.

Will Abramson: if we're doing Wednesday, I think there is potentially six
slots until if we wanted to start on the 1 of October, these are all the
dates that we could have a call with Cavier that I will be out one week.
But, I think that's fine, I don't have to be here for the whole calls. I
just have some experience in doing the basic thing. But I think if we're
going to do this, it'd be great to have somebody else kind of temporary
chair or helping, maybe learning just to run, all you have to do is do the
basic speech, follow the guidelines,…
00:35:00

Will Abramson: blah blah blah, there's a very short paragraph in the
calendar invite that I just basically read out every time. yeah.

Pindar Wong: Why don't we delegate to the Asia members…

Pindar Wong: who are already part of the W3C right?

Will Abramson: That's a good place to start. I mean, that's kind of where I
was going to get next, I think we can definitely fill this to be an
interesting slate of talks, between us all, we know some interesting people.

Pindar Wong: Sure.

Will Abramson: The next part is how do we announce and communicate that
we're going to do this, once we get a bit more firm on our agenda, we
should start saying, look, we're going to have and obviously we can
announce through the 2CG mailing list. I think reaching out to W3C members
who are from the AP pack region if we have a list of them is a great idea.

Will Abramson: I don't know if we each have other lists I'm hopeful that I
can get the CDPI to announce it through their mailing lists. so it's just
finding people who know the right channels to communicate to people who
might be interested in the APAC region that this is going on and then we
just see…

Pindar Wong: Yeah. Mhm.

Will Abramson: who turns up and then I think we evaluate that. My idea
would be we're probably going to run all these events. I think it would be
a success for me if we had 10 people, I mean, I think the general CCG calls
get about 20, up and down on issues, but maybe we get loads and there or
maybe we don't get very many and it's not, and we have to reevaluate

Pindar Wong: The only devil's advocate is again the risk of fragmentation
within the main group. And I don't feel that the main group is not maybe
strong enough is probably the wrong word, but it's

Pindar Wong: the cohesiveness of a single group. I don't think it's
actually the time zone as much as the focus. I think, because I've been
doing this for many years. I mean, we'll find a way if the topic is of
central interest.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: But I'm very reticent to do things in terms of just proform
i.e. that it's time zone or…

Will Abramson: Mhm. Right.

Pindar Wong: so I don't know how you feel whether or not the actual main
group I is strong enough I don't want to sort of if I think we tried this
several years ago or maybe it was last year moving the main group call
around right and…

Will Abramson: Yeah. …

Pindar Wong: that didn't quite I mean there was maybe one I can't remember
what it was but one call and then the rest of it sort of you ended up
losing the main group

Will Abramson: yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean,…

Will Abramson: that's what the working groups typically try, we go, okay,
one day a month we're going to have a call that's APAC friendly, but then
what happens is nobody shows up really apart from a few people…

Pindar Wong: Right.

Will Abramson: who also show up to the main group call So, it's kind of
pointless. And I think I totally take your point, I think this would be an
experiment and I think maybe the part of learning of experiment is every
day every week is too frequent, but maybe instead of that is every other
week or just once a month we have an additional call that is Apac friendly.
I think this is just to test the waters and see okay how many people are
showing up to these calls who don't usually show up to the main calls and…

Pindar Wong: Yeah, I mean my the suggestion I had is even following mailing
lists takes time and…

Will Abramson: if we get a lot then I think that is a valuable signal that
we should do this in some form Right.

Pindar Wong: so one of the things in my mind is apec friendly catchup call.

Pindar Wong: So, basically the goal of the catchup call and I would see
these catch-up calls being once a month or minimally once a quarter, in
terms of frequency that says, okay, here's what's notable beyond the stuff
that you've read on the list or that which is public. And I think that's to
me the main thing to provide an opportunity for interactive and when
interactive by text. because I think some people feel more comfortable in
interacting in the chat.

Pindar Wong: So whether or not you do it over take bitcoin for example IRC
right is where it's all at right and…

Will Abramson: Right, right,…

Will Abramson: right. Yes,…

Pindar Wong: also because of language the sort of the nature of so the
texting is actually quite important…

Will Abramson: totally. Right.

Pindar Wong: but the catchup nature which is the ability to ask questions
should there be any questions so that to me right now is the main thing
that I think is lacking it would be nice to have none of this is essential
none of This is essential.

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Pindar Wong: I mean, if this is the last call, so be it. I mean,…

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: I was just here to be like a cheerleader.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Mhm.

Pindar Wong: Good job. Not actually the lead do anything beyond that.
knowing full well the experience of everyone thus far because no one we're
all time poor.

Will Abramson: Yeah.

Pindar Wong: We have no real time to waste.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: So, maybe I would just leave it with that. just being a
catch-up call.
00:40:00

Pindar Wong: Because maybe everything is fine,…

Will Abramson: I think yeah,…

Pindar Wong: right? I don't know. Sure.

Will Abramson: I don't have a good sense to check that. I mean yeah I mean
I kind of had here I think there is a sense that this is about seeing and
getting to know the people who are in the APAC community who maybe
regularly listen to and are just observers of the CCG group. to hear from
them is there a different way that they would like are there things that we
could do to make them feel more part of the CCG community.

Will Abramson: So yeah I guess that is a good big goal of this October push
and really to maybe bring up some of these options right like we do this
and we see hopefully we get some regular people who are showing up to a
majority of these sessions and maybe what we do is I don't know if this is
too we tried this in the main TCG call…

Pindar Wong: Mhm.

Will Abramson: where we kind of split into breakout groups and we got
people just to talk to each other and get to know each other but a lot of
people kind of were hesitant about even turning up because they're like, "
there's quite a lot of cognitive overload to be present in a space that
they're quite used to just not being present and just observing." So, I
don't know if that is a bit scary also for Apex people. but it might be
nice, everyone's on the call for the first time to just introduce
yourselves and it might help the space over the month feel a bit more
friendly rather than just a screen.

Will Abramson: But then at the same time so that if that was the first
session we did we might want an end session which is just reflect like a
review session let's kind of have a retrospective and…

Pindar Wong: Absolutely.

Will Abramson: decide as a group because I'm happy to help facilitate this
but it has to be driven from what do people want and…

Pindar Wong: Absolutely. I think could I flip it around a little bit?

Will Abramson: then we can throw up some ideas like this maybe it is just a
once a month call which is for the APAC community to discuss any questions
that they have from the last week's talks and mailing list.

Pindar Wong: I mean, there could be a perception with all the different
recommendations now that have reached that stage that's kind of like,…

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Pindar Wong: we're done. not from the working group but from the community
group perspective right and all the input that can and it should have been
made years ago.

Pindar Wong: So that's something that but being clear about the role of the
CCT going forward post recommendation just saying that now that we have
these recommendations here's what's next and…

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Pindar Wong: I think the more specific can be sometimes I think that that
works better because otherwise it's just too ended right it's sort of
whoever just shows up and that may be sort of being viewed

Pindar Wong: as in a negative sense since we're all time Paul. but that's
just me sort of just riffing off what we're saying.

Denken Chen: Yeah, I would like to add another candidate.

Denken Chen: I would possibly try to reach out this team from Changong
University here in Taiwan and…

Pindar Wong: Mhm.

Denken Chen: they have been building a diploma verification systems in
Taiwan. But …

Denken Chen: since our president has demanded the ministry of the education
to issue the diploma in VC standards and…

Pindar Wong: Mhm.

Denken Chen: so they have been being pushed to adopt W3C standards in this
year trying to do a pil run. However, in that the website provided it's
just simply a PDF with the integrity hash check. So, it's a pretty simple
and…

Pindar Wong: Mhm. Mhm.

Denken Chen: centralized verification systems and they have been pushed to
trying to migrate that system into a VC's data model. And so I think that
could be one of my contact point to ask them whether they are interested in
the VC edu talk because we know that the ministry from DCC have been
leading the VC education talk for a while now and they have some great
solutions or discussions there.

Denken Chen: So it might really help some from a team of Taiwan to join
that talk to understand…

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Denken Chen: how those credentials would work within crossborder
recognition of that educational diploma because I know that in Taiwan those
university has been struggling to have crossborder verification. So that
could be one part I can try to reach out to see whether they are interested
in that group starting by giving a small talk or…
00:45:00

Denken Chen: or yeah

Pindar Wong: Yeah, I mean in Hong Kong you have a very early notion of
exporting our diploma for secondary education in back sort of to the
mainland China for those schools…

Pindar Wong: who wish to follow that kind of curriculum. So, as we all
become more network, we're going to have to be able to mutually verify or
have better understanding of the so-called qualifications.

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Pindar Wong: So, I do see the sort of the education angle being the
motherhood statement that, one is going to complain too much, It seems to
be that everyone wins. again, I'm not talking competence.

Pindar Wong: I'm not talking that you actually know what you're doing but
unless there out beyond the school the formal schooling framework so that
would be what I would try to focus on for Asia pack because education is
sort of almost beyond reproach it's viewed very highly and I think everyone
will face the same issue when one goes beyond one's borders so anyway I
think

Pindar Wong: for today it's just the three of us slightly surprised only
three …

Pindar Wong: but that is I think we will have to face the reality no yep I
think we have to suck and…

Will Abramson: Maybe because it's too early Yeah.

Will Abramson: Yeah. And maybe this fails, isn't as successful as we'd
like, but I still think it's worth trying.

Pindar Wong: I think …

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: what I just actually wanted to express to you will and Den is
that I appreciate as

Pindar Wong: a perennial lurker, so people know that by the time I show up,
something's wrong, you normally show up and everyone goes, " god, what's
wrong now?" So didn't want to do that. I just want to come up and say, well
done and thanks for the effort. But at the end of the day, we have to look
at the reality. and…

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Pindar Wong: there's lots of stuff going on the mainland today in
particular. So that's why I don't know…

Will Abramson: Yes. …

Pindar Wong: but I mean politics is biting back in a big way everywhere.

Will Abramson: yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: And so this showing and…

Will Abramson: Yeah. Mhm.

Pindar Wong: demonstrating that we can all pull together in a public space
for public protocol development I think is critical actually not just here…

Will Abramson: Powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. …

Pindar Wong: but the ITF and elsewhere

Will Abramson: if we want some because I still want to get to this agenda
sort of finalized out and I'm kind of thinking now this is more like I mean
you spoke maybe introducing what's the CCG's role a little bit like just
CCG 101 and also maybe some sort of just general community introductions
then I think four talks and then one sort of I think doing a retrospective
would be good. so the question is maybe the action item for us all is to go
and reach out to some people.

Pindar Wong: Mhm.

Will Abramson: I know you spoke about ad hoke about maybe we can have
almost a few different talks around the VC edu session that has different
ideas like talk that that would be really interesting and it might be a
nice way to bring a few different perspectives from APAC into a single kind
of a bit more of an engaging talk rather than just one person talking at
you. and maybe there's two others so I think it's just reaching out right
and then maybe if it's okay with you we could catch up again in a couple of
weeks and then just finalize this okay are we set for this and then
announce and…

Will Abramson: put on the calendar which I think two weeks that would give
people two weeks notice till the first call do you think that's too not
long …

Pindar Wong: I think it's ambitious.

Pindar Wong: It's doable. notwithstanding that this is beginning. I mean,
from many of my friends in academia, they're spinning up term right about
now.

Will Abramson: right. Yep.

Pindar Wong: So, it's actually a pretty bad time to get their attention
because at least the edu community. but let me take it upon myself to reach
out to the original architects of Adhar to have them go through…

Will Abramson: Right. …

Pindar Wong: what they were thinking at the time.

Will Abramson: and maybe what I can do as well is send out an email now
that we had this call and we are thinking of targeting a first session on
the 1 of October at the time that we said.

Pindar Wong: Sure, sure.

Will Abramson: 1 p.m. UK and…

Pindar Wong: Yeah.

Will Abramson: I'll create a few different slots. I mean what locations I
think are good to put in? You mentioned an India city. Do you have
Bangalore maybe or…

Pindar Wong: Yeah, that would be I based on deployments I would build
things around that time to I mentioned Indonesia…

Will Abramson: we could cool. So we can do Bangalore,…

Pindar Wong: but yeah I mean Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson: maybe Taiwan and Tokyo or something like that, right? Yeah.

Denken Chen: So I think it'll be great that you send out a public mailing
list public mail for inviting people for that time and…
00:50:00

Denken Chen: also we can quote that mail to invite trying to reach out for
those possible potential speakers and…

Denken Chen: probably when I am going to invite those speaker I can invite
them and CC your email, right? Will Yeah.

Will Abramson: Yep. Yes.

Will Abramson: Do that. Yeah. And then we'll let them typically…

Denken Chen: And also quote that pop.

Will Abramson: what we do.

Denken Chen: So, I can also quote that the announcement in the mail in this
to make people understand it's a official one.

Will Abramson:

Will Abramson: S***. This Yeah.

Denken Chen: It's not a fake one, And yeah, that could be a way to go to
trying to fill out a few slots along the way.

Denken Chen: But on a side note is that I personally are out at the second
half of October.

Denken Chen: I'll be on honeymoon in the Europe.

Will Abramson: Nice.

Denken Chen: Yeah, but that's…

Will Abramson: Congratulations, man.

Denken Chen: but yeah that's not important.

Pindar Wong: That's the real job.

Denken Chen: I just mentioned I will also trying to Yeah,…

Pindar Wong: No. It's actually really important.

Will Abramson: Yeah, you.

Denken Chen: that'll be interesting like I will also in the Europe's time
zone.

Will Abramson: Yes. …

Denken Chen: Yeah, possibly I can join that if my wife permitted.

Will Abramson: does these two are all to the 15th?

Denken Chen: Moment I think it'll be from 15 to 9 29 to 29.

Will Abramson: from 15.

Denken Chen: whole level cover three weeks unfortunately…

Will Abramson: That's okay.

Denken Chen: but I think we can just trying to fill out at least two or…

Denken Chen: three slots throughout October to that that will be great.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So also this is Yeah.

Pindar Wong: Yeah. Yeah.

Denken Chen: Yeah once we have more speaker we can extend that after T pack
right to continue that momentum.

Will Abramson: Absolutely. I mean,…

Pindar Wong: Yeah. I mean,…

Will Abramson: this is just like the potential weeks that we could host a
call, right? We don't have to have a call on all of these weeks.

Denken Chen: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Exactly.

Will Abramson: But it's just about trying to gauge interest. So, in my
email that I will also, ask people to kind of signal you, we're looking to
gauge interest,…

Denken Chen: Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson: who would actually show up to these events if we ran them.
And maybe you can I just ask them to reply privately to me or…

Denken Chen: Yeah. That would be great,…

Pindar Wong: yeah. ju just Yeah.

Will Abramson: something, right?

Pindar Wong: I mean just keep in mind that October 1st is from China's
national day. I think and…

Denken Chen: right? Yeah.

Pindar Wong: in Taiwan is double 10 o said.

Denken Chen: M Yeah,…

Will Abramson: Okay. yes.

Pindar Wong: So I mean there sensitive dates that out of ban you would need
Yeah.

Denken Chen: it's a big day in China. Yeah, but it depends on the speaker.

Pindar Wong: So true true.

Denken Chen: Okay.

Will Abramson: The other thing is this is looking at Wednesday.

Pindar Wong: So Yeah.

Will Abramson: So, we could also move to, a different day like a Thursday
if that's helpful. I don't know.

Denken Chen: Adjust that.

Pindar Wong: You guys can talk offline because I mean a lot of people have,
the various different holidays around that time.

Will Abramson: Right. Right.

Pindar Wong: I mean, the beginning of October is going to be difficult no
matter…

Will Abramson: Right. Okay.

Pindar Wong: which way you look at it. and so you're more likely to almost
sort of put everything towards the end of April.

Will Abramson: Yep. terror.

Pindar Wong: Or yeah, sorry, October.

Pindar Wong: than before. But I mean again the principle of least surprise
just get it out there as soon as you can and…

Will Abramson: Yeah, let's put it out like this and…

Pindar Wong: then move things forward.

Will Abramson: we'll see what people say.

Pindar Wong: Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson: If people come back and they're like, I'm really interested,
but I can't make that time or noise. Okay,…

Pindar Wong: Then That's good. so from my side I will do some exploratory
emails to the ad hoc folk with CCT Google.

Will Abramson: perfect. Just appreciate. Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson: Feel free.

Pindar Wong: you might actually know them already.

Pindar Wong: But it's actually showcasing their work as opposed to in a
friendly format,…

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: we're not all sort of flame suits and…

Will Abramson: Yeah. We're not going to attack.

Pindar Wong: and all the rest of it. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. I mean, it's
deployed, so it doesn't actually really matter.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Mhm.

Pindar Wong: It just don't get to tell you where the backup sites are. I'm
just kidding. I just wanted to say again, I appreciate all the work,…

Pindar Wong: time, effort, and energy to get today.

Will Abramson: Thanks. Yeah.

Pindar Wong: The way that you did it I think was very important. but the
result which is there's three of us right so that I think we also have to
bear in mind notwithstanding the effort.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah. True. Yeah.

Denken Chen: Yeah, we need to kick start in the whole things.

Pindar Wong: Yeah pretty much so thanks again for everyone's effort.

Will Abramson: Yeah. No problem.

Pindar Wong: Questions or…

Will Abramson: Thanks for show.

Pindar Wong: comments in the last 6 minutes. Yeah.

Will Abramson: I mean the last thing I have is do we want to try and
schedule something in two weeks time just to find a final sort of go thing
or do we think we can just do that async.

Denken Chen: Yeah, I think you can just publish a in the mail in this to
announce it and…
00:55:00

Denken Chen: we can based on that mail to trying to reach out for that
potential time slots. Yeah.

Will Abramson: Okay. Yes.

Pindar Wong: But also I think work for you bills to the world is to hit not
a handful this sort of W3C members from this part of the world and…

Will Abramson: Right. I'll talk to contact…

Pindar Wong: through Yeah.

Will Abramson: which we see you up. Great.

Pindar Wong: And see what's possible. I mean they've always interested I
mean I think June Maria I used to have the W3C I don't know what a number
of years ago 20 years or whatever it was or the celebration a few years ago
in Japan and…

Will Abramson: Cool. Yeah,…

Pindar Wong: I think that was also a sort of eyebrow raiser in terms of
level of active engagement and I think showtime people

Pindar Wong: Okay.

Will Abramson: I'll do that. Let's go. Thanks. Have a good day. See you
there.

Pindar Wong: You too. Thanks for being open.

Denken Chen: Thanks. Thanks again.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Cheers.

Denken Chen: See you.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Thanks.

Pindar Wong: Thanks for being open.

Will Abramson: Yeah. No problem.

Denken Chen: Right. Right.

Will Abramson: Thanks a lot. Thanks for joining. Bye.

Pindar Wong: Chia. Bye.
Meeting ended after 00:56:23 👋

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