[MINUTES] CCG Asia-Pacific 2025-10-22

Here's a summary of the CCG Asia-Pacific meeting on 2025/10/22:

*Meeting Summary*

The meeting focused on digital credentials, particularly micro-credentials,
within the Asia-Pacific region, with a focus on education and related
ecosystems. Will Abramson, the meeting facilitator, provided introductions
and context for the Credentials Community Group (CCG). Rey Vea and Haemiwan
Fathony presented on micro-credentials in the context of educational
institutions and ecosystems in the Philippines and Indonesia respectively.

*Topics Covered:*

   - *Introductions and CCG Overview:* Brief introductions and a review of
   the CCG's purpose, code of conduct, and IP policies.
   - *Micro-credentials Ecosystem in the Philippines:* Rey Vea presented an
   overview of a micro-credential ecosystem, including competency standards,
   qualifications frameworks, and the role of various actors (providers,
   issuers, learners, employers, and standard-setting bodies) and the use of
   digital credentials.
   - *Micro-credentials in Indonesia:* Haemiwan Fathony discussed the
   implementation of verifiable credentials in the Indonesian Cyber Education
   Institute (ICE Institute). The presentation covered the ICE Institute's
   journey with digital credentials, current challenges, and future
   aspirations, including the need for interoperability, portability, and
   alignment with government regulations. They also discussed their
   experiences with blockchain technology and open standards like VC 2.0 and
   Open Badge.
   - *Cross-Border Credentialing Challenges:* A discussion on the
   challenges of creating cross-border credential systems. Key topics included
   multilingual support, the use of qualifications frameworks for equivalency,
   and the role of regional and global standards.
   - *Multiple Issuers for a Single Credential:* Discussions regarding
   having multiple institutions issuing a single credential and the methods
   available within the VC data model.

*Key Points:*

   - *Standardization:* The importance of adopting the W3C verifiable
   credentials standard and open badge standards to ensure interoperability.
   - *Ecosystem Development:* Building a comprehensive ecosystem for
   micro-credentials that involves various stakeholders, including educational
   institutions, employers, standard-setting bodies, and digital credential
   suppliers.
   - *Government Mandates:* The role of government regulations in driving
   the adoption of verifiable credentials, specifically the mandate for
   machine-readable credentials in micro-credential programs in Indonesia.
   - *Cross-Border Interoperability:* The need for regional and global
   qualifications frameworks to facilitate the recognition of credentials
   across borders, along with the role of translation tools and the use of the
   ASEAN Qualifications Reference Framework (AQRF).
   - *Multiple Issuers:* Options for enabling multiple institutions to
   jointly issue a single credential using the VC data model (e.g., using
   multiple proofs).
   - *Blockchain Integration:* The reasons for using blockchain for the
   timestamping of credentials and the pros and cons of this approach.
   - *Collaboration and Community Engagement:* Encouragement for
   participants to share their questions and insights with the CCG mailing
   list for wider community input.

Text:
https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-ccg-asia-pacific-2025-10-22.md

Video:
https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-ccg-asia-pacific-2025-10-22.mp4
*CCG Asia-Pacific - 2025/10/22 07:48 EDT - Transcript* *Attendees*

Akhmad S Bakhri, Francisco Corella, Haemiwan Fathony, Rey Vea, Samuel
Rinnetmäki, Will Abramson
*Transcript*

Will Abramson: briefly. Hi, how's it Nice to see you. Thanks for joining. I
appreciate you taking the time to speak to us today.

Francisco Corella: Hi. Looks like

Will Abramson: Hi yeah. So we get typically what happens Rey and how do I
say your name? Hi you want you on?

Haemiwan Fathony: E1 is easier.

Will Abramson: Okay So typically it will be recorded this call and there'll
be a transcription that will get sent out at the end. and then I will start
with some just brief introduction stuff around the CCG.

Francisco Corella: This is my very first time. Yes.

Will Abramson: Have you ever been to a CCG call on the Tuesday?

Haemiwan Fathony: No.

Will Abramson: Okay, Yeah, I guess it's not a very friendly type, That's
why we're exploring that's great. I'm really excited what you guys are
going to share. I'm sure it'll be useful to the community because these are
recorded, right? People from the US who probably aren't going to attempt
today will be able to watch it and many people do watch it as understand.
So I think that's great. and we will explore whether to continue these
events. So we've run three so far.

Will Abramson: And I've just have a schedule for October. So, next week
we're kind of just going to do a wrap-up call, who's interest, see what the
future holds, basically. What do we want to continue doing this sort of
thing? Is it useful? Feels like there's a lot going on in the Asia Pacific
region that often gets overlooked or not really talked about. So, I usually
wait a couple minutes for people to just trickle in and then I'll start
with the admin and just hand over to you.

Haemiwan Fathony: Okay.

Will Abramson: You are calling in from there.

Francisco Corella: I'm calling in from IIW that's taking place right now in
Mountain View.

Francisco Corella: The internet from the internet identity workshop,…

Francisco Corella: Yes. Sorry.

Will Abramson: But it's pretty early over there now.

Haemiwan Fathony: Pretty early.

Will Abramson: It's pretty early over there.

Francisco Corella: Yeah, pretty early.

Rey Vea: Is this

Will Abramson: Did you say early?

Haemiwan Fathony: I think it's early in the morning,…

Francisco Corella: Pretty early.

Haemiwan Fathony: right? Wow.

Francisco Corella: No, definitely.

Will Abramson: Yeah. Wow.

Francisco Corella: Yeah, it's 5 5 a.m. for me. Yes. Yeah.

Will Abramson: Okay, cool. Thank you.

Francisco Corella: Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson: But that's nice, you're in the Americas. So often they get
the friendly call time. So that's probably do this call.

Francisco Corella: That's okay.

Haemiwan Fathony: and thank you for arrange it. will friendly call time for
Asia Pacific is definitely help.

Will Abramson: No problem. What time is it you on.

Haemiwan Fathony: I'm at 7:00 p.m. Ray, I think it's 8 Yeah.

Will Abramson: Okay.

Rey Vea: We are in Manila. It's 8:00

Will Abramson: Yeah. And is this a good time? Because when I was setting
this up, I tried to have an organization call and just ask folks when would
be a good time and I was thinking initially even earlier in the day would
be better. But I had some push back saying maybe this evening time is a
good time for you. Would you agree with that? is this sort of after work
and a good time or would you prefer it to be in the work time?

Haemiwan Fathony: I myself prefer after work because usually I already free
up my schedule.

Will Abramson: Okay, great.

Rey Vea: Yeah, they also prefer after work.

Haemiwan Fathony: For me actually 8:00 p.m. Jakarta is better but I think
for friends in Singapore probably it's too late already.

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah 7

Will Abramson: Right. Okay.

Will Abramson: I don't know how many people will be joining. We've usually
had about 10, but I think it's often like people…

Haemiwan Fathony: Mhm. Yeah.

Will Abramson: who are speaking often bring their focus on.

Francisco Corella: I see.

Will Abramson: is IAW. So, I mean, I guess Francisco, you still joined, but
a lot of people will be out. I'll give one more minute and then I'll just
kick off. Mhm.
00:05:00

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah, while we are waiting for others will I think at
least from Indonesia perspective probably in the upcoming months there will
be lot of discussion related to variable credential.

Haemiwan Fathony: I will cover it partly in my presentation. because the
government basically trying to encourage educational institution to issue
the credential in the VC format and including the portability.

Haemiwan Fathony: So that's why people are now trying to explore about this

Will Abramson: Okay,…

Will Abramson: I'll get started and we can just start and if people come in
late, that's fine. If not, they can watch it earlier. So, welcome everybody
to the credentials community group Asia-Pacific call. we've been running a
series throughout October and next week will be our final call where we're
going to review and decide what's next. So, do we want to continue these?
So, if you are hearing this now or listening back and interested in that
and can make it next week at the same time, we'd love to have you because I
think for me these calls have shown there's a lot of appetite and there's a
lot of interesting things going on in the Asia Pacific region that aren't
covered or brought into the awareness of the, US and EU sort of world. So,
be great to have you there.

Will Abramson: before I hand over to Yuan and Rey who are going to talk to
us about micro credentiing for education, I just run through the standard
CCG sort of spiel. If you haven't been to one of these calls before, then
this is pretty standard stuff. So first we're a W3C community group and we
abide by the code of conduct and the code of ethics and professional
conduct. So, I'll drop a link into the chat, but I'm sure we all know,
let's just make a friendly space. treat people with respect and, help
create a constructive learning environment. I think we do pretty well as
that as a group, but it's always good to remind folks. second, this is just
a brief IP note. It's probably not that relevant for folks here, but part
of a community group's role is to work on work items.

Will Abramson: So for example, if you're a company and you're working on
something, but you want to share it with the group and maybe get some other
input from other companies, might you bring that to the credentials
community group and we can explore setting up a work item which is often
like a document or some software and the idea is that this community group
creates a space where this collaboration can happen. So we have an IP note
which is basically if anybody wants to work on any of the work items that
we are currently doing or suggesting a work item you have to be a member of
the credentials community group before IPR agreements signed. It's pretty
straightforward but if you're interested just reach out to me. this is not
the same as being a member of the W3C. So you don't need to pay W3C
membership or anything like that but it's just so we have the IP taken care
of.

Will Abramson: also call note just so about this call. So we use Google
meet as you're all here and it's recorded and transcribed by AI and then
after the call they will automatically be sent out to the mailing list of
the credentials community group. So the transcription and the recording if
you're not on the mailing list I encourage you to sign up. And then we do
sort of introductions and reintroductions. I don't know. I mean obviously
Rey and Yuan are going to be speaking to us today, but if anybody else on
this call would like to come off mute and just say hello briefly, introduce
yourselves, please feel welcome to be great to hear. Samuel. Yeah, go for
it.

Samuel Rinnetmäki: Yeah, maybe I can. I'm Samuel Rinetmaki, CTO for Finet
Cooperative in Finland public private cooperative and we are interested in
micro credentials and verified education and skills. So mostly listen I've
been lurking around the W3C mailing list for more than a decade maybe two…

Will Abramson: Okay.

Samuel Rinnetmäki: but haven't been too active in the working groups.

Will Abramson: Thanks for joining. Anyone else?

Francisco Corella: My name is Francisco Corella and…

Francisco Corella: I'm not particularly interested in micro credentials.
I'm working on a very ambitious innovative project trying to come up with
some innovative credentials. way of using credentials actually with some
collaborators and one of the collaborators is Pema Selden who was the u UX
and UI lead of the Bhutan NDI. And that's why I'm joining now. I want to
know what's going on in Bhutan.
00:10:00

Francisco Corella: In our project actually writing we a demonstration with
working code and we're using the Bhutan there was a case study that was
published by Bhutan. Okay. And it's a very nice explain…

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Francisco Corella: what all the participants are in TI. So we use that we
implement servers in our demonstration. And we say this server would
correspond to such and such part of the Bhutan NBI.

Will Abramson: Great.

Francisco Corella: Not that it would be the same implementation with the
same functionality. You see what I mean? So I thought it would be good to
find out what you guys are doing. Yeah.

Will Abramson: We actually had the Bhutan NDI folks on last week, I
believe, to talk to us about their national digital identity program. It's
very interesting. Last chance. P Aman, I don't know to speak. you don't
feel any pressure to but you are welcome to if you would great nice to meet
you okay and…

Akhmad S Bakhri: Okay, thank you.

Francisco Corella: What the hell is

Akhmad S Bakhri: Nice to meet I'm a part of the team with Iwan and Rey at
the time. Nice to meet you all.

Will Abramson: usually I do sort of announcements and reminders I don't
have anything particular so I'll just hand over to you I don't know if is
it you want to go first or…

Haemiwan Fathony: Rain will go

Will Abramson: Ray Okay,…

Rey Vea: Okay, I'll go first.

Will Abramson: great. Yes,…

Rey Vea: Can I share screen, please? …

Will Abramson: you should be able to I think it's the one with the arrow
and…

Rey Vea: that's me. I'm new to this Is that I don't see any emoticon.

Will Abramson: it's like the third one along to the left of the smelly face.

Haemiwan Fathony: next to the camera rate next to the emoticon.

Will Abramson: Okay. Yeah.

Haemiwan Fathony: Do you want me to share yours? I have Yeah.

Rey Vea: Can you please do that? It's only one slide in any case.

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah. Where is my slide?

Rey Vea: Okay. Thank you.

Haemiwan Fathony: This one.

Rey Vea: All right.

Will Abramson: I think maybe it's not sharing that bit of the screen. Yeah.

Rey Vea: We do slideshow.

Haemiwan Fathony: I already slid hold on. Probably I need to share the
whole Entire screen.

Rey Vea: Okay. Good. Thank you. I'm Ray Vea. As Akmad said, we are part of
a ADB team that is rendering technical assistance to the Indonesian Cyber
Education Institute. outside of that, I had a group of five universities in
the Philippines. I'd like to talk this evening about digital credentials in
a micro credential ecosystem.

Rey Vea: this ecosystem I think does not formally exist anywhere as of the
moment but some countries including Indonesia and the Philippines would
have the components for it like skills competency standards and the
qualifications framework outside of the national national scene part of the
ecosystem would be standard setting bodies which are mostly now global
including of course the C standards. So let me start at the upper left
corner of the screen that box there you have national competency standards
global regional and national skills frameworks and job sites.
00:15:00

Rey Vea: these would be the source of topics for micro credentials. So if
somebody wanted relevant micro credentials, he may want to look at the
competency standards best if there are labor market statistics that are
associated with it and he can go to the well global frameworks like
Litecast region regional like the one in Europe and the one in Southeast
Asia and of course their own national skills framework

Rey Vea: the one in Singapore and what we have in the Philippines.
Indonesia has a national competency standards and job sites. Then one may
want to run a demand analytics engine in order to determine on the demand
side what the need for the micro credentials would So the actors here would
be the providers or the issuers of the credential. Other than these
frameworks system of re recognition of prior learning can also be used in
order to award micro credentials. So the priv provider issuer may be now on
the lower left maybe a higher education institution may be a technical
vocational institution.

Rey Vea: It may be employers and it could be global online providers like
the one that provide MOS. so any of these guys can now develop a micro
credentials and mount them on a national qualifications framework. The ASAN
has a reference framework called the Asayan qualifications rather Asayan
reference qualifications framework to which most Asan nations have already
re referenced their own national qualifications framework.

Rey Vea: So with the levels of credentials being awarded so that will be
the place to lodge a micro credential because it maintains a registry of
all credentials and qualifications in the country and it is considered a
trust provider because if recog it that micro credential is recognized
under its national qualifications framework then the potential ial learners
would know that you can trust the micro credential. Sometimes you have to
earn it first but that should be a source of trust for learners. Other than
the qualifications framework, countries accredititation certification
system and rankings some of them worldwide.

Rey Vea: Worldwide certification in rankings as in world university
rankings can also be a source of trust and that's an attribute that goes to
those micro credentials that are mounted on the framework can be put on an
online learning platform. course that will be digital and learner can
access the micro credential through this online learning platform. so now
from the provider a learner who completes a microcredential is awarded a
digital credential.

Rey Vea: The provider may seek the services of a digital credential
supplier in order to award that credential and the learner puts it in his
learning employment record which he can share with employers and also if he
wants to go for further studies he may want to share it with the
educational or training institution and employer or the educational
institution may want the digital credential verified but with digital
credentials that may be a step that may be skipped as I understand it. Okay.

Rey Vea: So on the upper right corner you have the standard setting bodies
standards for semantic semantics of academic achievement and job vacancies
the descriptive language of skills data models and communication protocols.
so I guess these are important and I don't have to tell you this you're the
experts in this that components of the system will be interoperable.
00:20:00

Rey Vea: So the standards now are used by the developers of applications
and what are involved here mostly would be the learning management system
and information student information system LMSSIS of the provider learning
employment record of the learner and the human resources management system
of the employer. So if to the same standards then they can be all
interoperable. What we've developed in the Indonesian Cyber Education
Institute is also a career guidance system that takes input from the HRMS
posted in job sites.

Rey Vea: and also some mentoring system and the career guidance system will
be used by the learner in order to navigate his way through the work system
and the education system in the country. So as I said the components are
already existent in in a number of countries but what we're advocating is
to put this all together into one ecosystem for microcredential development
and deployment. So thank you. I think that's my spill for tonight.

Will Abramson: Thank you, if anyone has any questions, just raise your hand
in the me,…

Rey Vea: Let's do it.

Will Abramson: you can take them. maybe I have a quick question around what
standards are you using are you using W3C verifiable credentials and
centralized identifiers for example or is that still to be sort of defined
and figured out or…

Rey Vea: Yeah. this was supposed to be generic,…

Rey Vea: but I think the W3C standard is certainly I think very attractive
and…

Will Abramson: Right. Yeah.

Rey Vea: so even the open bud system I think it's already trying it's
version three is moving towards W3C.

Will Abramson: Yep. Uh-huh.

Rey Vea: So you can use any standard but or we hope that someday there will
be just one standard for all of these. so W3C I think good is an excellent
standard to employ in the system.

Will Abramson: Thanks, No other questions.

Rey Vea: Thank you.

Will Abramson: We can hand over to you.

Will Abramson: Maybe you want to go. We can take questions together at the
end.

Haemiwan Fathony: Hold on.

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah, you can always go back to raise slide if you have
any question later on. gentlemen, u my name is Iwan. I'm based in Jakarta,
Indonesia. and myself Rey and also Ahmed is part of the technical
assistance from the Asian Development Bank in the Indonesia ication cyber
education institute. I will talk about the ICE Institute in a brief moment.
so this is the agenda I'll just give So ICE Institute is a national
platform that aim to accelerate the digital education Indonesia.

Haemiwan Fathony: actually ICE institute started to employ favorable
credentials since inception. So you can imagine as institute like Corsera
or DDX or Udemy but only for career education content and it is credit
bearing mean that the courses are transferable. So universities can
recognize the results and then adopt it into their curricula. At this point
of time the ICE institute is using a third party software as a services
digital credential system by company called accredible at this point of
time.

Haemiwan Fathony: there was an experiment to implement block search an open
source digital credit system developed by the MIT media lab but it's never
materialized into the produ production I will cover it also in a moment and
now ice institute u producing other courses that is not credit bearing
means not recognized in the university But as Rey said now we are moving
into recognition of trial learning means that people may take it in advance
and then be recognized later on.
00:25:00

Haemiwan Fathony: so somehow it is actually still credit bearing as well as
microcredential programs and in fact in Indonesia actually the regulation
mandated the use of verifiable credential with some details and
requirements on the metadata site for example what kind of qualification
frameworks referred by the particular course like reset and our problem now
at the institute is We already issue micro credential program around 2022
or 23. however it is not really a stacking of credential. It is more of a
bundling of credential and it is issued by using rules set in the internal
database system as well as the vendor configuration set on the digital
credential system.

Haemiwan Fathony: So it is not really following the W federal credential
standard if you miss and it also have some issue on whether it is actually
comply with the idea of decentralized trust and also a portability. So we
are happy to join this discussion because we are now seeking basically
guidance, advice or references that may help us to move forward. So this is
the design of the credential system at the ice in pretty straightforward.

Haemiwan Fathony: I believe you may see similar diagrams elsewhere because
basically the building block is the course provided the university will
list the course in the marketplace the student will take it and upon
finishing the course they will given the credential and the credential is
also notoriized in the blockchain and they can share it. So that's
basically in the building block. It is not changed up until now. but the
detail need needs some refinement and this is the journey.

Haemiwan Fathony: so the journey of having blockchain based digital
credential has been quite some time in Indonesia before the pandemics but
then we have the pandemics and in mid 2020 we resign the idea that's when
the development vention coming in and then providing the technical support
including connecting the Indonesian stakeholders to

Haemiwan Fathony: for example with the digital credential consortium with
the MIT group etc and also we are some sessions with people from Europe as
well and at that time we prototype with the block set and it's successful
however since the pandemic was prolonged at that time the government want
to establish the online course marketplace as soon as possible and we are
pushed to go live ASAP at that time. So the choice is just okay let's use
the available solution in the market. however as you may know once we are
comfortable with something usually we are getting lazy that's actually what
happened and we have some resources limitation as well.

Haemiwan Fathony: So the exploration for the digital credent the variable
credential is not there for the last probably 3 years to three years until
sometimes early or mid this year when I instituted as some concerns on the
budget and the need for flexibility to adjust the information the metadata
and also the pressure from the business side moving into the
microcredential program and…

Francisco Corella:

Haemiwan Fathony: ensuring portability basically how to meet the ecosystem
as depicted in the race diagram.

Haemiwan Fathony: So that we have a lot of issue that one and this is a
couple of aspiration I will focus only on the blue one because I think
that's the most important thing and it's related to race slide there is a
need it is mandated by the government that the upcoming microcredential
program should have some sort of machine readability. so it need to
incorporate several things like which qualification framework being
referred whether it is national or international qualification framework
and what is the accredititation bodies or what kind of skills framework or
skills catalog for that particular courses. It is not originally available
in the ice institute implementation.
00:30:00

Haemiwan Fathony: So they need to adjust it and it is also basically
implied in the new regulation from the ministry of higher education. You
can see it is a new regulation 2025 although previously there was a
guideline on micro credential program that already mentioned that the
courses or the certificate should be in the form of verifiable credential.
So this is from race slide. So I will just go do this one. This is a system
interpretation of race diagram. So we have standards and data models as you
mentioned will we follow the 2.0 as well as the open patch 3.0

Haemiwan Fathony: But ideally we also have some sort of references to both
competency standards and skills frameworks as well as the qualification
frameworks and it will incorporated into some sort of layer that cover all
of those things. So it can be implemented within the micro credency
program. So the dot line is not there yet.

Haemiwan Fathony: that's what we are im imagining u the straight line is
what we have at this point of time as you can see in micro credential
program you see it consists of several individual credential what we have
now it is not really linked so basically that's why it's called actually a
centralized bundling so we have individual certificate and we have the
micro credential or the group certificate it but it is not really linked at
credential level. It is linked at using our own database as well as in the
provider database. So we have issue because if somebody want to verify in
the micro credential program they cannot verify it using the credential
only it need to go to us.

Haemiwan Fathony: So that's the issue and the other issue I believe I saw
it somewhere in the 3U double U3C discussion is about joint issuer because
micro credential program in ICE institute may consist of courses from
different institution. currently our approach is establish a joint entity
basically is test institute and then we just put cosmetic logo etc. So from
the system perspective it is a single issuer but from the user perspective
it is two institution or three institution but it is not really two or
three institution that's what we want to resolve in the upcoming update
actually.

Haemiwan Fathony: So this is the gap that we identify. as I mentioned that
currently ICE institute will issue one final credential after confirming
the system report. So it is from the learning management side. we want
actually somehow to incorporate it into the verifiable credential itself.
So it will be traceable which courses under this micro credential the
pathway etc.

Haemiwan Fathony: Currently we do not have that and that's also creates
some issue if the holder and the certificate holder want share they need
basically to share individual certificates along with the microcredential
cert The ideal scenario is they just share the micro credit certificate and
the u subcertificate will follow. So that's some of the issue that we have.
we are now discussing whether we can use the evidence property within the
PC 2.0 or standards to use that we are going to discuss it in a moment and
one of the issue what we have now is the mobility the portability issue
with the credential itself.
00:35:00

Haemiwan Fathony: So this is the momentum that we have as I mentioned the
government regulation is there and we saw some international practices from
Europe from the Singapore although it is not really a microcredential
program but they are moving into that direction as well and one of the
interesting thing from Europe is beyond Europe with micro credential
project the BM project we would like to explore more because we have some
demand on the TEAT sector on the technical vocational education as Ry
mentioned and we are now exploring other open source solution as well.

Haemiwan Fathony: In fact we are going to have another call sometimes today
to discuss this and when we are discussing this we are looking for
practices all over the world and we found out that actually Japan already
issuing a guideline the lesson learned that we capture is that it confirm
actually the architectural choice because they adopt both OB and VC 2.0 And
one thing that we learned from the Japan implementation is …

Francisco Corella: That's something

Haemiwan Fathony: how they put the information on quality assurance on the
credit recognition but they use the criteria the field name.

Haemiwan Fathony: So it is a good example but on the other hand it's
confirm our concern that what is the correct way or right way to do it
where should we put this in order to make it interoperable. So that's one
thing that we would like to explore in coming months and that's why we hope
that we can have some input what is the appropriate or fast and easy if to
incorporate micro credential program into verifiable credential.

Haemiwan Fathony: How we can stack it properly and is there any experience
in capturing the learning outcome the competency within the microcredential
or within the VC and any example or best practices that we can follow it
will be good so we do not need to reinvent the wheel and Yeah, we are now
having the OB3 and W3C VC 2.0. Hopefully it will merge in in a moment.

Haemiwan Fathony: So then we can have resets just one standard and probably
how we or we can leverage this community group to better support the
adoption of verifiable cadencia in countries like Indonesia. That's
probably from my side. Will thank you.

Will Abramson: Thanks a lot. That was very interesting presentation, does
anyone have any questions for either Yan or Ray? We have plenty of time. We
can go. I do not work in the educational credential space.

Will Abramson: One thing that both your presentations remind me of is we do
have a task force in the credentials community group. Are youware aware of
that? Yeah. The verifiable or education credentials bcedu.

Haemiwan Fathony: Mhm. Yep.

Haemiwan Fathony: PCD. Okay.

Will Abramson: I know probably that also isn't a great time for you both.
but I wonder it sounds like you are already tracking that work because they
probably have minutes and stuff and I think they would be great people to
send some of those questions because they'll be more engaged in what is
possible today. I think that was great. I also had a question about both of
you talked about wanting to create a single microcredentiing ecosystem that
ideally is cross border right exists people can use to take their
credentials.
00:40:00

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah. Good.

Will Abramson: What do you think are some of the biggest challenges with
that crossber case have you considered language is language a problem? do
you have to be able to translate these credentials into multiple different
languages? as just an example, maybe Germans

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah. Yeah. lessons from the implementation in Japan.
they implement it in dual language the credential. So you can see that the
technical detail on the metadata consists both the Japanese character as
well as the English.

Haemiwan Fathony: So they have both I believe probably it is for easier
portability and I think what I saw in many implementation usually English
still becoming dual language is one of implementation and the other
approach is in race term is having some sort of registry so we have an ID
on what kind of competency but it does not resolve the issue on the name of
the courses for example or name institution that's why multiple language
implementation is still there and for crossboard

Haemiwan Fathony: order recognition for example usually in the
implementation is referring to first what kind of qualification framework
and what is the ID so then we are going to retrieve it later on so for
example when we are saying let's like say a com someone taking the course
on course on computer networks it may be interpreted differently in
different countries

Will Abramson: You're muted, right?

Haemiwan Fathony: because they have different expectation once somebody
pass this course what kind of competency level. So they need to explicitly
set in the variable credential which competency level that you want to
cover with this course name. So at the end of the day we are looking only
on the skills framework or in the qualification framework.

Rey Vea: Yeah, in the Asaian region we have an Asan qualifications
reference framework. It's been I think 10 years now since it was
introduced. So a member state of ASEAN would have its own national
qualifications framework. in encing. It will compare itself to the Asan
reference framework and it will try to match level by level.

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Rey Vea: For example, a country's level four is the same as level four in
the asan framework while another country's level five is the same as level
four. Therefore, the country A's level four would be substantially
equivalent to country B's level five.

Rey Vea: So it's like a translation device for national qualifications
framework. But what it does is just match the levels of the qualifications
across a sean. one thing that is being worked on is to actually include
micro credentials in the framework. As of now, it is just the certificate
you get from technical vocational institutions for that kind of training
and also broadly the bachelor's master's degree and the doctoral degree
from higher education institutions. but Malaysia has included its micro
credentials in the framework.

Rey Vea: So ideally I think what is hoped for is that if you have a micro
credential from a country certain country of level level three for example
it can be matched against roughly the same microcredential of some other
level in another country through the translation device. So it is very ripe
actually a very blunt instrument as of the moment…

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Rey Vea: but regionally if that functions very well then the countries can
compare it credentials with those of other countries. The same system
already exists in Europe.
00:45:00

Rey Vea: There's a Europeanwide qualification system and there are I think
about 15 regional qualifications framework all over the world. There's an
attempt now led by Europe to actually make a comparison of all the regional
qualifications framework and…

Rey Vea: hopefully you end up with a global qualifications framework but
that will take years actually I think for that to happen but that there's
an issue about micro credentials people have taken to distinguishing micro
credential and…

Will Abramson: So is the Europe one also at the level of micro credentials
or…

Will Abramson: is it just at the level of full transcripts you achieve this
whole qualification?

Rey Vea: macro credential.

Rey Vea: I don't know if this is what you mean. in New Zealand they have a
registry for qualifications and they have another registry for micro
credentials but together it's called the New Zealand qualifications and
credentials framework. quite different from all the others so it's a work
in progress.

Rey Vea: the recognition of micro credentials in a single country and also
across borders. Yeah.

Will Abramson: Yeah, it's very interesting…

Will Abramson: because I mean it sounds like from what you're saying this
work at the policy level which is often that gets forgotten in these
technical space is already underway right people understand educational
credentials quite well right we've been issuing educational credentials at
the national level for a long time. We've been exploring how to do that at
the regional level. So that kind of really important work of figuring out
the ecosystem and the credentials and who can issue them and how do we
trust those people is already there or underway. So I think it's a really
interesting use case because you're just saying look let's add some
cryptography into this let's try and make these credentials that are
getting issued by this ecosystem digital in the same way that students or
people who do these training can control them and present them to people.

Will Abramson: So I think it's a really kind of exciting space to be
exploring because feels like you have the traction, right? You don't have
to convince people that these credentials are important. It's already all
there. So that's cool.

Will Abramson: Have you talked to the people I guess it sounds like r where
you are quite involved in this sort of comparison the policy level are they
also kind of supportive of the digital …

Rey Vea: Yeah. Yes.

Will Abramson: how to make the move these credentials digital Mhm.

Rey Vea: I'm involved in the ASAN activities. I actually chair a focus
group on third party comparisons of regional qualifications framework and
national qualifications framework but there is another focus group within
the asan that focuses on digital education and training.

Rey Vea: but the work of the two focus groups will still have to be merged
and…

Rey Vea: made compatible. So yeah, there's work going on digital education
and training.

Will Abramson: But does anybody else have any questions?

Will Abramson: I can keep going. I wondered if you could show your slides
again. I think you had a really interesting table comparisoning sort of
where your implementation is at now versus where you want to get to. And I
think you said one of the sort of things you'd like to get to is multiple
issuers being able to issue a single credential, a kind of and so could you
talk a bit more about are you hoping that you say I've got this verifiable
credential it literally lists the identifiers of each of these issuers yeah
I think this was the one that sure you were talking about one of the things
that you were interested in is…

Haemiwan Fathony: Sorry, sorry. can you repeat it? I have issue with my
microphone just now.

Will Abramson: how can multiple institutions sign off on or…

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson: issue a credential. and at the moment,…

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson: you've kind of just compressed that all into one, right? And
there's just one issuer because

Haemiwan Fathony: That's true. Yeah. probably the good diagram is actually
this one. So what we have now is in because it is initially started with
the certificate is for one course produced by one institution one
university.
00:50:00

Francisco Corella: Peace.

Haemiwan Fathony: So it is quite straightforward from the data model
perspective basically because we are talking about the issuer and the
holder and the claim that's all.

Haemiwan Fathony: In the micro credential it become an issue because we
have the credential and the micro credential may consist of courses from
different institution and…

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Haemiwan Fathony: ideally the micro credential we say that this is jointly
issued by institution A B and C.

Haemiwan Fathony: to assert that this holder is capable to do this but we
do not have fit at this point of time.

Haemiwan Fathony: So when the walk around is put the logo at this point of
time.

Will Abramson: Right. …

Will Abramson: because one way to explore in a verifiable credential case,
you have proofs attached to the document and…

Haemiwan Fathony: Okay.

Will Abramson: it is possible to attach multiple proofs. So you could have
all the different institutions that are issuing the micro could have to
review the macro, and…

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson: then sign off on it and it would just be the same credential
but with three different signatures on it for example.

Haemiwan Fathony: Mhm. Okay.

Will Abramson: So then at least you would represent the issuers.

Haemiwan Fathony: So, it will be multiple issuer does it mean or…

Will Abramson: Yeah. Multiple issuers.

Haemiwan Fathony: just the proof? okay. That's good. Okay. Okay.

Will Abramson: I think that's…

Haemiwan Fathony: We are Mhm.

Will Abramson: then that's one way to The other way that I was thinking
when you first presented it is some sort of multi-IG approach. but I
actually think…

Will Abramson: what you want is it to be explicit when I'm looking at this
credential was issued by these three organizations and they are all signing
off on it.

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah. Yeah.

Haemiwan Fathony: That's Yeah.

Will Abramson: So, I think the VC data model does support that today.

Haemiwan Fathony: Okay.

Will Abramson: So, it's building into the flow and…

Haemiwan Fathony: We will explore it because one of the issue is sometimes
about the agreation level of the issuer…

Will Abramson: then Mhm.

Haemiwan Fathony: because the different university may have different
accreditation level right so then it will affect the recognition on the
other side because some institution may say that those…

Will Abramson: Mhm. And…

Haemiwan Fathony: who have a lesser accreditation level I will recognize it
differently.

Will Abramson: then the other thing I wanted to ask you which you just
reminded me of in the other slide with the blockchain on you're saying the
credential is notorized to the blockchain does that mean you are literally
storing a hash of the credential on the blockchain right…

Haemiwan Fathony: Mhm. Yeah.

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.

Will Abramson: what everyone's interested have you because often in the VC
case we don't store anything about the credential on the chain. Instead,
what we store is the issuers's keys or it's really the signing over that
credential that secures it.

Haemiwan Fathony: Ying. Yeah.

Will Abramson: What is the reason for putting it on chain? Is it also
signed? I guess it must also be signed. Right. Right.

Haemiwan Fathony: It is in the signature. You're right. And also the Yeah.

Haemiwan Fathony: also it is back to the old implementation…

Haemiwan Fathony: because during 2020 one of the questions from our
stakeholders is …

Will Abramson: Right. Sure.

Haemiwan Fathony: how to ensure that this certificate is intact and one of
quite straightforward thing way is just we're going to h it and as long as
the h is the same then basically it is intact. Yeah, just taking Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson:

Will Abramson: Yeah. Yeah. I get that. I guess it's just, one way to verify
the integrity of the certificate also is just to verify the signature, but
I guess the blockchain is globally accessible and can be locked up maybe.
Cool. Yeah, it's very interesting. does anybody else have any questions or
maybe we can close a little early? I don't know if either of you two have
any questions for each other. both you work together,…

Will Abramson: right? already kind of exploring this,…

Haemiwan Fathony: Yeah. Yeah.

Haemiwan Fathony: We work in the same team basically.

Will Abramson: right? Great. Yeah. I would really encourage you to share
your list of questions with the CCG mailing list.

Haemiwan Fathony: Okay.

Will Abramson: I think you'll get some interesting input, I think these
whole sort of talks and sessions are about trying to get some or share
these ideas with the wider community. So maybe when the recording is shared
you could send that out and just share look we're working on the
credentials in education we have these questions we'd really like …

Haemiwan Fathony: Okay. Yeah.

Will Abramson: if anyone's got any thoughts I think that would be well
received yeah no problem.
00:55:00

Haemiwan Fathony: This is our first time to connect with this kind of
community. so yeah, it's good start. thank you for the insight. I will try
to connect to not yet.

Will Abramson: Are you part of the CCG mailing list?

Haemiwan Fathony: Not yet. Yeah. Sh.

Will Abramson: Okay, I'll try and get a few. So, this is our website and I
think on there you can subscribe to the mail list if you want to. I think
that's it. We can give people seven minutes of time. thanks a lot. I really
appreciate you coming on and hopefully we can continue doing these kinds of
calls in some sort of cadence that makes sense.

Haemiwan Fathony: Sure.

Rey Vea: Yeah. Yeah.

Will Abramson: Great.

Francisco Corella: Thank you everybody.

Will Abramson: Have a good rest of your day or evening. See you.

Rey Vea: Thank you. Fixed.

Haemiwan Fathony: Yes. Thank you.

Will Abramson: Bye. Thank you.

Haemiwan Fathony: Thank you everyone. Bye.
Meeting ended after 00:56:22 👋

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