Re: RUBI: A Self-Sovereign Identity-Based Retroactive UBI System - Seeking Community Feedback

pá 21. 3. 2025 v 14:59 odesílatel Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
napsal:

> On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 3:16 PM <nivas.cool@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I wanted to share an idea that intersects Self-Sovereign Identity (SSI),
> decentralized governance, and Universal Basic Income (UBI): Retroactive
> Universal Basic Income (RUBI). I have attached a one-page explanation of
> the concept, breaking down the mechanics.
>
> Hi Nivas, thank you for sharing this interesting proposal with the
> group. A few thoughts below on your ask of the community (how to
> engage more productively) and the concept itself.
>
> First, and most importantly, I commend you for thinking about societal
> problems and trying to propose something to fix some of the wrongs in
> the world. Many of us are here because we care deeply about the things
> you touch on in your proposed solution. It's coming from a good place,
> so keep going -- the world needs more people like you that are trying
> to fix fundamental flaws in local, national, and global society!
>
> Your ask of the community might be too broad to get a response. I've
> noticed that asking targeted, specific questions tends to get more
> responses than general "What do you think about this idea?" questions,
> which is what your email seems to be asking. In other words, you're
> asking people to do a lot of mental energy to grasp the very large
> concept and system you are presenting and then provide input on
> some/all of it. There are just too many moving pieces to analyze
> unless someone were to take a lot of time to sit down and think about
> it... and many of us just don't have the time to do that (unless some
> of us have been thinking about this problem for many years). So, you
> might try to be more targeted in your questions to the group -- focus
> on a very specific portion (like proof of personhood) and ask a few
> very specific questions.
>
> On to just some hot takes on your idea, I know a few of us have toyed
> with UBI and SSI, so this just so happens to touch on things I've been
> interested in for many decades now.
>
> > RUBI is a framework that proposes a globally governed, open-source
> monetary system where:
> >
> > Personhood credentials (SSI-based) ensure UBI eligibility while
> preventing fraud.
>
> This part is do-able and interesting. The preventing fraud thing is
> key, and I don't think we have a good solution for it yet (but there
> is some hope in some of the newer advanced cryptography -- namely
> per-issuer/verifier pseudonyms).
>
> Keep in mind that there is no privacy preserving system that is also
> capable of fully eliminating fraud. Any proof of personhood system is
> guaranteed to have fraud in it and you will just have to accept
> that... it's "How much fraud are you willing to accept?" that is the
> key question. The next key question is: "How is your PHC system going
> to optimize for pseudonymity AND anti-fraud?"
>
> > Democratic governance enables citizens to vote on UBI rates and
> demurrage policies.
>
> Define "democratic". :) -- the form of governance matters immensely
> here. Do you mean American democratic? Or Scandanavian democratic? Or
> Chinese democratic? Or Indian democratic? The populations in some of
> those countries make some "strange" choices according to the
> populations in the other countries. It seems like you are going for a
> global solution when there is no "global culture"... different
> cultures and borders exist... how are you solving for that?
>
> If you want your solution to scale, the architecture has to take into
> account that there are different types of democracies, and more
> importantly, different types of cultures with some of them that are
> incompatible with the concept of UBI and others that will
> differentiate themselves by going away from UBI. Nation states and
> cultures compete with each other over long periods of time -- how is
> your system resilient to that?
>
> > Retroactive UBI ensures individuals receive compensation based on their
> birthdate, correcting past economic exclusion.
>
> Sounds like you want to bankrupt entire nations. :P
>
> Remember that many nations are barely solvent, many keep large debts
> on their books, and with retroactive UBI, you're asking entire
> societies to take on a huge debt without explaining how all of that is
> going to be financed. This is probably the most critical part of your
> proposal that I cannot reconcile, and I have to go beyond suspending
> disbelief to just: "He will eventually figure out that there is no way
> that retroactive UBI can work from an economic perspective." -- I'd
> love to be proved wrong there, do you have links to any research in
> this area with positive outcomes?
>

If you view it as an investment, rather than a debt, this problem goes
away.  Debt is just a ledger and number on a computer, which can easily be
changed if it makes sense.  Many nation states have issuing power which
means that they dont operate in the same way as a household does.  ie money
invested productively pays for itself.


>
> Most every nation that has considered "reparations" for past
> grievances has only agreed to them if they were defeated militarily
> (reparations being imposed on a defeated nation) or the population
> receiving the reparation was so small that the financial burden could
> be absorbed by the nation's workforce.
>
> In other words, people who have liquid assets (money) don't like
> giving those assets to other people unless there is a good argument
> for doing so. If forced to do so, by the larger population, they just
> move the asset to somewhere else that doesn't fall under the rules
> that say they have to hand the asset over. You will see wealth (and
> innovation) fleeing to whatever nation you want to impose your RUBI
> thing in... or it will be transformed into something that RUBI can't
> be applied to (such as physical assets)... and then to fix that, we
> venture into government seizure of assets "for the good of the
> people", which has a long and sordid history. I'll stop there, there's
> a lot written about this in the history books.
>
> What you might try, instead, is to focus on societies where there is a
> sort of UBI already in place -- Alaska's Permanent Fund, Saudi
> Arabia's Citizen Account Program, Finland's UBI experiment, Spain's
> UBI program, Kenya, Norway, etc.
>
> I'd say this is the most distracting part of your proposal, that might
> cause people to not respond to the email.
>
> > Interoperable and competing digital currencies operate with open-source
> governance to prevent speculation.
>
> Another herculean task... seeing as how just about every currency in
> the world, including all the new blockchain based currencies, have no
> escaped currency speculation... what are you going to do that's
> different here?
>
> > I would love to hear your thoughts on any aspect of this concept,
> whether from a technical, governance, economic, or interoperability
> perspective.
> >
> > The feasibility of integrating SSI-based personhood verification into
> such a system.
>
> Feasible.
>
> > Political possibilities of making such a system come to reality.
>
> Next to zero possibility for your current proposal. You are trying to
> solve three of the hardest problems of the last several hundred years
> simultaneously.
>
> Props for shooting for the stars, but you have to figure out a way to
> propose something that is scalable from something small to something
> big. How are you going to hit scale with your proposal?
>
> > Design considerations for privacy.
>
> The PHC thing is probably the only place that privacy comes in -- how
> are you going to combat sybils in the system?
>
> > Potential alignment with existing decentralized identity frameworks or
> monetary governance models.
>
> DIDs and VCs can play a part in what you're trying to do, but your
> biggest issue isn't the technology... it's the fundamental economic
> and governance problems you're trying to tackle.
>
> > Broader implications and challenges of a retroactive UBI approach within
> a decentralized ecosystem.
>
> I've highlighted some of these above, and I hope it's not
> discouraging. Keep at it, we'll try to help as much as we can. The
> hardest problems you're trying to address aren't technological in
> nature, they're related to governance and economics -- but that's just
> another form of engineering; social engineering, and there can be a
> strong connection between technological engineering and social
> engineering.
>
> I hope that provides some of the feedback that you were hoping for
> Nivas. Don't be discouraged by it, as I said, you are trying to solve
> very important societal problems and that is commendable. :)
>
> -- manu
>
> --
> Manu Sporny - https://www.linkedin.com/in/manusporny/
> Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
> https://www.digitalbazaar.com/
>
>