- From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2025 15:51:25 +0000
- To: public-credentials@w3.org
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week! The transcript for the call is now available here: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2025-03-18/ Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes. Audio of the meeting is available at the following location: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2025-03-18/audio.ogg A video recording is also available at: https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-weekly-2025-03-18.mp4 ---------------------------------------------------------------- W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2025-03-18 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=%5BAGENDA&period_month=Mar&period_year=2025&index-grp=Public__FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-credentials&resultsperpage=20&sortby=date Organizer: Harrison Tang, Kimberly Linson, Will Abramson Scribe: Our Robot Overlords Present: Harrison Tang, Rashmi Siravara, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), Will Abramson, Tom S, Erica Connell, Jennie Meier, Jeff O / HumanOS, Ankur Banerjee, Mahmoud Alkhraishi, Mike Xu, Manu Sporny, Rob Padula, David Chadwick, Joe Andrieu, Greg Bernstein, Nis Jespersen , PL, Kaliya Young, Chandi Cumaranatunge, Przemek, Przemek P Our Robot Overlords are scribing. Will Abramson: Great how everyone welcome to today's ccg call uh today we will be continuing our discussion from last week I think we have uh anchor is here to just give us an update on the linked resources and then. Will Abramson: We're gonna. Will Abramson: Kick off it is. Will Abramson: Discussion sorry started on the mailing list about potentially migrating our video conferencing tool to something else and we will also be having a discussion about some new meeting formats that we want to experiment with and would love to hear your input on. Will Abramson: Uh so before we get started just to put the Spiel so code of ethics and professional conduct you know we follow the w3c code of conduct and professional code of ethics and professional conduct uh you know let's continue to make these meetings and this community uh positive environment for everybody I think we do a good job so it's good to keep that in mind. Will Abramson: Uh okay next is IP note uh so anyone is welcome to participate in these calls however to substantive contributions to any of our work items must be members of the ccg with 4 IP agreements signed. Will Abramson: Um if you don't show all that means or if you have any questions just reach out to us we can help you with that. Will Abramson: Um yeah call notes these meetings are recorded and everything you know is is recorded and made available after the call. Will Abramson: We do use ARC or you know the the these minutes of transcribed as well if you want to kind of think in the chat you can you can press Q Plus to or raise your hand to get put on the queue. Will Abramson: Okay uh introductions and reintroductions does anybody new to the community or hasn't said hi in a while and would like to say hello to today. Will Abramson: Love to hear from you. Will Abramson: Leave us hi. Tom S: Uh hi will I'm fairly uh still a newbie to the community and it's been like a couple of months uh I just wanted to uh I got a bit of an encourage encouragement to open up on these meetings I don't know if this is the right call I just have a 2 minute idea to present and take feedback from the community should I wait for a different call or can I talk about my idea right now yeah. <mahmoud_alkhraishi> Hi Nivas, Will Abramson: Uh uh first time any of us uh great to have you here I I would suggest for the best approach would be to put a uh your idea together in an email on the mailing list um then folks can chime in there and then also potentially we could have a schedule a call about it in the future. Will Abramson: I'd like to uh. Will Abramson: You know. Will Abramson: Like this agenda is quite full I'd like to make sure we have time to get through all the content. Tom S: Perfect thank you I'll do that thank you so much. Will Abramson: You know the mailing list I think it's uh. Will Abramson: That yeah great. Will Abramson: Thank you. Tom S: I do that yeah thank you so much. Will Abramson: Okay thanks Nas anybody else want to say hello before we move on. Will Abramson: No uh okay uh announcements and reminders so I don't have any announcements or reminders they want to share with the community today. <davidc> I cannot hear Manu Manu Sporny: Yeah just a quick 1 um tomorrow uh we are going to have started having meetings on promoting some of the ccg work items to the standards track at w3c uh so this includes things that have been incubating here for a while uh like the VC API uh did key uh verifiable credential barcodes did web uh confidence method render method uh in really anything else that Focus you know would like to discuss um that call is going to be tomorrow uh at 11:00 am Eastern so an hour earlier than the the meeting right now um and you know invite anyone that wants to participate in that discussion there we're going to be covering some of the work items in more depth talking about things that might need to be fixed or updated or changed before things go standards track and the timeline for taking those items uh standards track. <harrison_tang> I can. I think there might be an audio issue on your end with Jitsi. <tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> is that on calendar? Will Abramson: Great thanks man uh David I saw you couldn't hear em sorry about that I I could hear him trying hopefully everybody else could can you hear me. <mahmoud_alkhraishi> yes we hear you both fine Will Abramson: Kind of move on sorry David if you can't hear us still anybody else have any announcements I'll remind us. Will Abramson: Uh and if not we can get into the main agent. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Just a quick request for that tomorrow's meeting to be put onto the W3 calendar so it shows up in mine thanks. Manu Sporny: I can't do that Ted because the meeting infrastructure that we're using the new stuff uh requires a Google Enterprise account and uh well I guess we could move the I sent it out to the mailing list so it should be on the mailing list um. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Um I'll try and find it there it just doesn't show up automatically thanks. Manu Sporny: Okay I can also Ted I can also add you manually but then it blasts does weird email blasting and spams everyone um. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Yeah no need for that. Will Abramson: Okay sounds like some Central discussion for later when we talk about the infrastructure uh okay let's kick off I'm going to share my screen on how slides I mean I think. Will Abramson: Stuff is going to be you anchor just to give you a heads up. Will Abramson: Yes so as I said I mean I can show me to present or is this okay. Will Abramson: You still see the side. Will Abramson: Okay great yeah so there's not many slides but I will keep this shared throughout so that means I can't look at the queue uh maybe I could have anyway I'm not looking at the queue so just to flag yeah so Ana over to you how did link resources again on. Will Abramson: Yes great thanks ano um I have a question but if anyone else has questions jump on on the Queue yeah my question is like timeline I mean I think this has been a work item for a while and that's that's fine right but like. Will Abramson: To it would be great to think you know whilst the timeline and process of getting this to like a published final work item. Will Abramson: Cool great thanks. Will Abramson: Anyone else have questions. Will Abramson: Oh man perfect. Manu Sporny: Um this is all great uh anchor and wonderful uh you know um recap of uh the importance of the spec um once it's finalized uh what are kind of your plans on kind of Standards track the reason I ask is we're like trying to work on a couple more w3c Charters um I don't know if you or expectation is we you know fold this into some of those Charters or if you think like the place to standardize this is probably uh some some other place that um you know would be a would be a better fit do you have thoughts there on on. Will Abramson: Yes so I would say just add you know did resolution is being standardized at the w3c current. Will Abramson: Cool okay great thanks for that and thanks for that update uh let's move on. Will Abramson: Next we going to have a discussion hopefully we're going to try time boxes because there are other things. Will Abramson: I want to go yes. Harrison_Tang: Pilot will sorry yeah I think uh David can actually provide a quick update about the verify uh no verify list of verifiers and issuers yeah. Will Abramson: I don't have a slide for him but sure go for it David if you are able to. Will Abramson: Or maybe you can't hear us. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: If you're on Firefox David there is a bug with jitsi that may be preventing you from speaking you are unmuted though but we can't hear you. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Maybe we come back later. Will Abramson: Yeah okay I mean this is good to highlights for kind of why we're having these this next discussion anyway. Will Abramson: If you get back on just jump in maybe even after this discussion we can fit you in sure. Will Abramson: Uh yeah okay so I'm just trying to set this up right like we're going to start a discussion today on this call about whether we should migrate and what that migration might look like I think after this call or in fact there is already an email thread so maybe we'll just bump that thread up by putting some of these questions on there uh this is open like I'm going to time box it because we have other things to get to but you know the aim is to discuss you know where the migrating to from jitsi would be a good idea and like what platform I mean I think it feels like to me probably the platform is Google meets and some of the work that man has done you know being able to export and keep some of the. Will Abramson: Features of Jutsu like uh this transcribing and you know the um recording and stuff like that. Will Abramson: I put some prompts I mean you don't have to listen to them but I just want to start the discussion so if anyone wants to jump on the Queue and say yes I really want to migrate and this is why or no please stay on jitsi because jitsi is great like let's see you I mean I will just say you know there are some challenges with jitsi which I think we've all experienced from time to time you know you have to be on. Will Abramson: El Brave right like if you're on Firefox you have some issues like the audio issue that maybe David is having it does occasionally Crash from time to time uh and we all get kicked out and have to rejoin. Will Abramson: On the first side you know is open source there's some really good features uh you know managed on a lot of work like. Will Abramson: Making this transcribing work with IRC and like a whole bunch of other stuff like. Will Abramson: But then again that stuff does take maintenance but you know a lot of the community hasn't really seen because manual digital have taken it off. Will Abramson: On public view if you care about this talk. Will Abramson: Great thanks Ana and I will just say you know like it's worth noting that the w3c working group meetings I think always uses Zoom but they pay an additional cost which is somebody in those meetings is described and they manually take notes in IRC so there's notes aren't trapped within Zoom or you know it's much easier to export them and get them out of there. Will Abramson: So that you know could be an option but then we can describe and that's always a challenge. Will Abramson: Maybe you can speak about like I know you've done a lot of work on the jitsi side but recently you've done some work on the zoom on the on the Google meet side right and we're using Google meet in the data Integrity calls currently. Will Abramson: I mean obviously I don't think we've had much time to like experiment with that I think we just had 1 call but you know maybe you can speak about bit yeah go for it. Manu Sporny: Sure happy I was trying to stay quiet to to make sure that the rest of the community had had uh a chance to air their Grievances and and support uh you know uh or or lack thereof for jetsey um. Manu Sporny: I well before because I'm gonna I'm gonna bombard the group with a lot of information and I'm trying really trying hard not to you know tilt the conversation 1 way or the other so I'm gonna stay quiet. Manu Sporny: Until we're absolutely sure that everybody has provided their input and then I'm I'll try to provide some some input as well at that point. Will Abramson: Great thanks I appreciate that. <harrison_tang> You are too fair, Manu Will Abramson: So you had Manna if if you have thoughts or you know now is the time to chime in on this conversation so we'd love to hear from you uh. Will Abramson: I'll get to you since anchor sorry. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Uh first thing since you highlighted the the transcription versus the describing. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): We are an organization of humans who are conversing with humans. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And often that means that we need to be politic in the way we speak and the way we take notes of how we speak. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Um which means that transcription can be a downside while scribing. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Going to be a little bit more nuanced about what is recorded and how its recorded. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): All of these tools have pros and cons and. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): It's unlikely that we're going to do a real good review of them in the sort of loose vocal format but I'll take it as given that this is just 1 input to the considerations um. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Setting that the folks doing it having some knowledge of them are using some kind of spreadsheet and tallying pros and cons and points and stuff but I'll leave that to you guys. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): They all have pros and cons yeah we're now W3 is now. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Using Zoom for all its working groups. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Uh in the past it was using WebEx for all of its working groups and other things have been used before that um. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): RC has a history not just of being the note-taking space but also of being a textual conversation space. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): uh it. <ankur_banerjee> In case anyone is interested, Zoom AI's "Meeting Summary" privacy policy: https://support.zoom.com/hc/en/article?id=zm_kb&sysparm_article=KB0057861 TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Used less for that these days but. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): It can be used for that more than it is um. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): While getter was a popular thing now and more popular thing is element or that's the the software I forget the name of the. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): The discussion Network that's being used underneath element um. <pl> Google Meet, last I checked does not support end-to-end encryption. E-to-E encryption is only to Enterprise and Education Plus users. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And I'm sure there will be another popular 1 as time goes on just because these tend to be open source projects. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): they get. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Popular for a while and they get long in the tooth and somebody new comes along and reinvents that wheel and it becomes popular for a while. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Um that's sort of the nature of the Beast and what we're doing. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Uh that's enough for this moment I have a lot of perspective because I've been doing this for 20 years but uh for what it's worth. Will Abramson: Sure thanks Ted I mean I really appreciate the perspective that they all have pros and cons right like and what are the pros of jitsi is this is like what we're using right now and you know there's some sort of cost that we have to pay to move. Will Abramson: Part of this discussion but anyway uh anchor go for it. <jeff_o_/_humanos> First blush I like the Zoom stance on the data not being used outside the purpose of referencing the call's history. I also appreciate the scribing v transcriber nuances. Will Abramson: Yeah exactly I mean kind of we are already doing that in well I mean Mario has we are adopting the Google meet approach in data Integrity calls that happen on Friday morning. Will Abramson: But yeah maybe if we do decide to migrate we would also try them here too. Will Abramson: Uh I think Joe you're next. Joe Andrieu: Yeah thanks um yeah I. Joe Andrieu: Hey Greg it's is um got to be really problematic and and we should have this conversation. Joe Andrieu: What I'm sad about is it looks like the direction we're we're going in if I understand what Manner is going to be proposing is that we're going to lose a little bit of our visibility or maybe all of our visibility into the real time um. Joe Andrieu: Transcript stream and I think 2 of the most valuable features I love with our current setup is 1 queuing with a reminder. Joe Andrieu: I can. Joe Andrieu: So valuable because the conversation goes all over the place. <tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> forgot one of the current downsides of the transcription being used for Jitsi, which is that non-USA speakers ARE NOT LOGGED, which loses a lot of useful content Joe Andrieu: Sometimes when I get recognized for the queue I forgotten what I was going to say unless I had said you know use that mechanism with the Q Plus to say talk about whatever like I did uh for this to support the real-time visibility of transcript prescribing um the other thing that's really valuable to me that I'm worried about losing is the uh that you miss a point someone's made and then people are arguing about it and the ability to scroll back and see what made it into the transcript is hugely valuable um so if it really I just want to make a case for having real-time visibility into what that output is. Will Abramson: Thanks Joe I mean I will just flag uh that feature that you described really uh. Will Abramson: We don't get unless like I have to act you right like if people are putting their hand up and I just say you know oh my mood you can speak then I think automatically that he gets taken off the queue. Will Abramson: So I think it is a good feature but we don't currently use it well in in the ccg meetings I think if anything that sounds like an argument to go back to IRC more properly and maybe try and upskill people in IRC use. Will Abramson: But anyway. Will Abramson: Uh I agree it's a good feature uh. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Um I think there's an elephant in the room that we kind of sort of talked about on the mailing list and I want to make sure that I surface here which is that meet and zoom are closed source and Jitsu is obviously open source. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: There are a lot of people who have a lot of. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Um ideological feelings around that situation. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: I'm going to leave that there if there are anybody who would like to expand on that point please do the. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Big reason why I personally feel we should move is because of 2 core issues the first is jitsi has regularly caused us a ton of interruptions in calls at a ton of difficulties that were around speaker being just unable to get started and you get like a 5 10 minute delay or whatever people regularly like today can't hear other people on the call or they can't interact or anything like that that's just a standard that we currently live with and I personally find it to be very disruptive and very annoying and I would much rather we not have to uh deal with it the second big reason why I believe we should move is because there are a number of features that would be available from other. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Platforms that I think are going to be very useful going forward for this call such as breakout rooms which would so so 1 of the things that I talked about last week is a proposal for breakout rooms and breakout conversations to go through and talk about water cooler moments and have those like conversations and that's not really possible with jitsi as it currently is right and I would much rather we find out. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Um you know you use any uh user piece of software has this integrated now it may be possible to just organize you know 15 16 different jitsi meetings and like run them all at the same time and have people join them Etc but I don't believe that is really sustainable but I'm obviously happy to hear any and all feedback on that but that's really my sense on this. Will Abramson: Yeah thanks Mahmood yeah I definitely agree breakout rooms is a thing that we would want or we do want I mean 1 option just to like I guess show the other side is for me a breakout room session is something that would be unscribble. Will Abramson: Closing the conversation David. <mahmoud_alkhraishi> The transcription doesn't capture EU iirc Will Abramson: Great thanks David and I guess you were right you weren't transcribed then so that's very interesting it's not like you very much yeah thanks I really appreciate that uh Ted last word on this and then yeah I guess Mana can speak. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Yeah that's I threw this into the the chat but it's words on screen so they don't get picked up as well um words in the air now will get picked up differently because I'm in the US and so the transcriber will listen to me uh I know this is a limitation a known limitation of this transcribing service and I don't know how. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Able it is if you were to be kept as the thing to use. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Open source hey it's great except when it's not um that's it. Will Abramson: Great thanks Ted. Will Abramson: Uh sorry I my name is gonna have the last word on this and then I think we need to move on because I want to get to the rest of this stuff. Will Abramson: I don't go for. <davidc> The problem with lack of transcription is that when I report on Trusted Lists none of what I say will appear in the minutes Manu Sporny: Okay yeah um I'm I'm. Manu Sporny: Not going to go into the the reasons each 1 of those features you know doesn't work I think we've covered them on previous calls um you know uh Google refuses to transcribe any audio you send in using anything under then the en language tag uh Apple refuses to implement certain web RTC things and when they do they uh accidentally quote unquote transmit you know Hang-Ups to everyone else in the group and that bug stays around for 2 months and then goes away and then it comes back um you know fundamentally I think there's a very unfortunate series of mimics in Jetty and then bad behavior by the browser vendors um that have caused you know people to have a bad experience uh with jitsi I think some of it is anti-competitive behavior um and you know this is how open source ecosystems die um I. Manu Sporny: Am usually. Manu Sporny: Ing very strongly to use an open source thing and eat our own dog food and uh you know um take a principled position on the meeting infrastructure that we use considering we're trying to build kind of you know decentralized uh Technologies um uh but I but I give up um you know I've been fighting this fight for 10 years and uh I think it's it's pretty clear that you know. <ankur_banerjee> Only thing I was gonna say is I appreciate from Zoom, Google Meet, Teams etc the feature of having a floating/"picture-in-picture" window so that meeting controls can be be overlaid while switching/changing screens. I don't think that's possible in Jitsi, I always have to return to the Jitsi tab for it. Manu Sporny: People don't care enough about this particular thing to put in the time to make the ecosystem sustainable right so I'm unwilling to continue to support the jitsi uh approach because largely it's you know taken many many hours and uh uh out of my weekends and my holidays to try and keep the meaning infrastructure going um on top of that you know it's cost upwards of 95,000 for the infrastructure over 10 years plus probably close to 120% amount of money um okay so I don't think there's an option to continue using jetsey because the people that are maintaining it are unwilling to do so anymore um. Manu Sporny: Uh what. Manu Sporny: He can do. Manu Sporny: Uh though is moved to a different platform um uh huge minus 1 to zoom I have tried 3 times to get uh to use the zoom apis while they have a good privacy policy they have an absolutely horrible uh uh API um and we would not be able to achieve some of the things that that we need to achieve using Zoom uh Google meet we can do that the transcriber that we use is Google's transcriber that's the thing that you know people are looking at and complaining about not doing a good job uh but we would be using the exact same transcription service if we were able to you know if we moved to to Google meet um. <mahmoud_alkhraishi> The minutes were wonderful btw Manu Sporny: We do lose all of those features that Joe mentioned um but as uh we'll uh said you know we don't really use those features um I have been able so we so will we we do use it for the VC API call as well um we ran uh you know a a trial anchor last week uh whenever and it worked you know swimmingly for you know the people that were on the call um the minutes were summarized and sent out to the mailing list so if you go and you look at the that the mailing list um you'll see that we were able to Archive uh the text transcript and the audio transcript um 2 server infrastructure that we control that server infrastructure is cheap it's just a a VM that stands out there um uh you know serving um video files and audio files um we were also able to use an AI summary to summarize the entire transcript and it. Manu Sporny: Did a pretty. Manu Sporny: Um you know we covered some pretty in-depth things in the data Integrity work and the um and the BC API work and uh the summaries. Manu Sporny: Impressive it's definitely gotten much better over the past you know 2 years um for those of you that don't know we we have been the kind of. Manu Sporny: Around with seeing if meet and zoom were capable and it's only recently that they actually added the apis that allowed us to You Know download transcripts um you you needed to use you know the the zapier approach that um uh Anka mentioned you know before that. Manu Sporny: Does have a different privacy policy uh and frankly you know if it's AI related I don't think we should trust anybody's privacy policy these you know tech companies have been shown to violate their own privacy policies on a fairly regular basis Facebook being the most egregious 1 saying that they wouldn't use copyrighted content and recorded audio to train their models and then being caught red-handed you know 2 2 months after so um but that that has been going on for years and we have all been participating in that because this transcription that we're using uses uh Google so um uh Google says more or less the same thing um. Manu Sporny: But you know how things work in in Silicon Valley uh I don't know how much we can actually trust these these uh privacy policies to really be doing what they're what they say they're doing behind the scenes so um all that to say uh I think we have the most important things in place to migrate to Google meet uh we do get breakout rooms I have no idea how transcription works there uh we would probably end up saving money um because it is expensive to run a jitsi uh you know video and audio server and support you know the type of change in in week to week um uh participation that we have. Manu Sporny: Um so we would end up spending less money if we were not going to run both of these systems in parallel please please please let's not do that it's just more work for the for the team that has to um you know keep the systems up and running um so you know if we're going to move over to something let's move over quickly and and tear off the Band-Aid and and get it done uh I think we have everything in place. Manu Sporny: To start that migration process just a heads up uh to the chairs that um we will have to get we we will have to get a Google Enterprise account to do this you can't get the transcription and breakout in recording services and the ability to download uh the content without paying. Manu Sporny: You know. Manu Sporny: Top dollar for the for the the the the thing Google has but even even if we pay that it's going to be less than uh what we're spending in cloud services fees for for jitsi and file hosting and all that kind of stuff um okay so uh sorry that that was a you know a lot of information the the net net is uh huge minus 1 to zoom it I don't think it's gonna work for us um uh Google meet stuffs already written so the only thing we need to do is create the new meetings using a new ccg owned Google workspace account so we need to work with the chairs to get that put in place transfer some domains you know set up emails to factor all that kind of stuff so there's just administrative stuff that needs to happen there um and then those real time things are not possible um either with zoom or Google meet they don't let you have that level of control um that uh jitsi has so we. Manu Sporny: We are not going to get. Manu Sporny: Um uh there's a chance that we can hand write something but at Great expense to whoever does development. Manu Sporny: Other thing that I think we should probably. Manu Sporny: Look at is archiving our video on YouTube uh there have been 3 failed attempts at doing that where people will volunteer to do it and then they kind of get there and then something happens and it's not taking the rest of the way so um with what we have right now we should be able to do that fairly easily meaning the new Google stuff um uh with me in the in the upload um. Manu Sporny: So that's the only last remaining thing that I think we probably should consider um. Manu Sporny: And that's it. <harrison_tang> :clap: <mahmoud_alkhraishi> Absolutely, thank you Manu and DB team Will Abramson: Great uh thanks M and you know point taken I guess we are not going to be staying to use Tity if digitals are and you are not willing to support it and I I guess I want to express my gratitude to you and your team right for all the thankless hours you've put in to make jitsi as it is I think you did a remarkable job of people probably don't really appreciate it realized um okay great. <jeff_o_/_humanos> Absolutely Yes! Thx Manu! Will Abramson: That was useful we can continue this on the mailing list maybe we'll try and summarize some of these points and share them out. Will Abramson: I feel like we have a. Will Abramson: A direction forwards uh so it's 15 minutes left let's see I mean I would like a bit more time but maybe there's enough. Will Abramson: So yeah last week we kind of floated this idea uh this week we want to discuss it in a little bit more detail we're the chairs are exploring you know some alternative meeting formats you know. Will Abramson: Different way. Will Abramson: That we can facilitate dialogue encourage participation and you know build shared understanding between us all here uh you know some ideas we've had is like the debate format maybe sort of like a happy hour mixer. Will Abramson: Breakout room style you know and and that's like casual get to know people in the community rather than a formal so that's kind of why I would say that those things don't need to be scrapped right like it's it's about you know just chatting with people who are here and who show up and get to know each other. Will Abramson: Without it being in the public you know it's so public as a main meeting. Will Abramson: Educational theories and also you know if you have ideas or you think there's a good format we could explore you know definitely jump on the Queue and let us know I think just some things we'd like to consider is like how regularly would you like these meetings to happen you know we have a free calendar currently from July I think it would be great to decide and then start scheduling some you know at least blocking out some of the calendar for that you know 1 thing around that is it might be nice to get into a good Rhythm where people can say oh you know that meeting the first meeting of every month or the third Tuesday of every month is educational and maybe I don't care about that I'm not going to show up. Will Abramson: Yeah and then topics obviously if we're going to do this like particularly for debate or educational series we need topics so there's a topic you want to learn about or if there's a topic you would love to hear some other people debate like let us know because we're going to need to start creating a list of some sort of a structure that we can start pulling from to make this easy right because currently. Will Abramson: It's quite. Will Abramson: Easy either meeting list I mean Harrison's done a great job of getting our agenda ready you know like I said we've got until July booked out with people I think the only. Will Abramson: Claims are not the challenges like the our meetings that we typically hold are somebody coming to talk at us. Will Abramson: And maybe a bit of Q&A I think we'd like to explore some more um meetings of people all get to you know contribute and feel comfortable doing so. Will Abramson: So yeah ideas and volunteers welcome and and really needed if this is going to happen it's not just going to be because the chairs make it happen it's going to be because we get Buy in from other people on this call. Will Abramson: Questions comments jump on the Queue let's have a discussion uh. Manu Sporny: Yeah that all sounds good the only the only format I'm I'm a bit concerned about actually sorry Harrison and David are on the queue. Manu Sporny: Jump on that. Harrison_Tang: Oh no I I I just want to remind that the uh David David actually is back so he can provide the update on the the list of vert verify verifiers and issues. Will Abramson: Okay well let's do that let's I'll try to save some time at the end. Will Abramson: That's all right. Will Abramson: Okay David do you have something about this or. Will Abramson: Okay well I mean this time I think you know I don't think you need long right I try to say 5 minutes at the end. <mahmoud_alkhraishi> used against them how? <mahmoud_alkhraishi> I understand Manu Sporny: Uh sure yeah so the only format on here that I'm concerned about is the debate format um uh you know as folks know we've had some you know really great debates in the in the past um in this group and just in the community um but we you know there's also the danger here that someone comes in uh you know taking a particular position in a particular debate and that's used against them um uh which has happened you know multiple times um I've seen that happen to you know people uh in the community um and in it ends up becoming kind of a really nasty thing right I mean so for example it used against them Mahmud like you know we're in a customer meeting and 1 of our other vendors is is uh pointing to things that we had said publicly and and trying to convince the customer that we are against the thing that um uh uh you know we're in the room. Manu Sporny: To talk about. Manu Sporny: You know it's and you know vendors vendors do this you know often um they they need to differentiate themselves from the other competitors but you know even when there's a debate that's had in good faith it is transcribed it's down there you've got audio with people arguing passionately 1 way or another and then uh some vendors end up using that as a as a as a tactic um which is problematic um in in the the other thing is that you know there there have been some pretty nasty schisms um in kind of the digital credential space um uh you know there's the mdl NBC stuff there's the oid 4 NVC API stuff there's the you know uh payment Handler. Manu Sporny: Uh credential Handler umm uh web a you know the like the the pass key stuff um while I you know wish it were easy or to have um. Manu Sporny: Debates in the community it feels like every time we have 1 that everyone comes out of it covered in mud and no 1 comes out of it looking looking good or or better so um that that's my biggest concern with the debate format is that there are a number of us that are just going to duck out because it has burned us so many times um and you know uh and that's bad right I mean clearly that's bad any any any time you have you know debate silenced um or people don't feel like it's it's possible to kind of you know uh engage in a intellectual debate without it you know backfiring on them um I think that's you know that's uh. Manu Sporny: Not good so I'm I'm again you know there's some debates that we could probably have and and you know or kind of friendly you know wants to have and there are other debates where there are you know Market forces at play that you know turn the debate into misinformation and then uh and then copy and paste that misinformation around the the ecosystem that's it. Will Abramson: Great thanks manto I mean I definitely recognize debate is probably the most challenging format we have put on there uh Mammoth and I'll just say we've got 5 minutes left on this so if you want to jump on the Queue jump on now uh uh after my mood to speak so we will close the queue. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Yeah um there's a I hear you 100% on the negative inferences that may that some vendors can raise that is absolutely about concern that is the thing that the most we can do if we have this format is have some clear disclaimer stating these are you know the whole point of a debate is to explore ideas and to learn and to grow together and if things are not done in good faith in that perspective then absolutely this format will not work and I'm with you there the. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Core premise here is to facilitate a place for people to discuss ideas where you may not know why other members of the community disagree with and because for whatever reason they just have more details on it or you may uh disagree with yourself purely from a I think it would be a bad idea to do X because of why and I believe X is the better thing I think it is 100% down to your last comment which is the topic that we will have for the debates is going to be so the make or break sort of for this format if we have something like mdl versus VCS we're wasting our time right but if we have something that is less contentious but still something that comes up regularly on the group on the working groups I think those are the kinds of things that would allow. <tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> Traditional debates do not require (indeed, often dictate otherwise) that the speakers *actually* support their position, rather than being assigned to argue it Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Heard and to help educate everybody else on their viewpoints and I I think that that's a thing we all need to strive to do and work on and that's really my 2 cents there. Will Abramson: Great thanks mood uh Leah you got the last word on this topic today. Kaliya Young: I'm really responding to me I think there's misinformation on. Kaliya Young: Quad Faith happening in many directions in this community. Kaliya Young: I've just come back from 3 weeks on the road and had someone on 1 discussions with folks and. Kaliya Young: It's a bit exhausting to have certain people themselves as victims of big companies all the time that's just not what's going on and there are Market forces at Play. Kaliya Young: I I just wish people. Kaliya Young: Find a way to actually believe that some people are actually acting in good faith and actually have legitimate technical concerns about things and not just disparage. Kaliya Young: What they say. Kaliya Young: Big Tech ganging up on this little Community because it's not what's going on. Kaliya Young: I think if we want our standards to be adopted and taken seriously we need to listen to the market. Kaliya Young: And not try and. Kaliya Young: Ourselves up in ways that are disingenuous. Will Abramson: Um okay thanks Korea um. Will Abramson: This was you know the starting point of this discussion I guess I will say um we we will put another thread on the mailing list. Will Abramson: I guess the main thing to think about is you know we currently have space from July like if you want to make this happen we need to start thinking now like if if you're new to this community or you're not that experienced and there are things you want to learn about like let us know and we can try and schedule them in for an educational session that you know maybe people who are experienced don't want to attend. Will Abramson: That's fine but we got to get them in the calendar early and maybe the debates thing needs a little bit more um. Will Abramson: A little bit more thought but I think it is an interesting idea. Will Abramson: Okay with that I think it's over to you David I don't have a slide or maybe I do have a slide. Will Abramson: I do have a slide love it. Will Abramson: Okay yeah go for it if you want. Will Abramson: Yeah move so. Will Abramson: Whatever you prefer. Will Abramson: Uh icon can everyone else. David Chadwick: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/verifiable-issuers-verifiers/ Will Abramson: Great if you put the URL in I will share my. <jeff_o_/_humanos> Thx All
Received on Wednesday, 19 March 2025 15:51:34 UTC