[MINUTES] CCG Weekly 2025-08-26

CCG Weekly Meeting Summary - 2025/08/26

*Topics Covered:*

   - *Introductions and Administrative Matters:* Welcome, code of conduct,
   IPR agreements, call recording, upcoming Internet Identity Workshop (Oct
   21-23), and announcement of Harrison Tang's upcoming term end as CCG
   Culture Chair. Discussion of succession plan. Coordination call for
   Asia-Pacific events (next Wednesday).
   - *Jeff O's Presentation: The Human Operating System:* Jeff O presented
   his perspective on the relationship between humans and digital technology,
   focusing on the challenges of bridging the gap between real-world
   sensibilities and the digital landscape.
   - *The Human Operating System (HOS):* Jeff used anecdotes to illustrate
   how people's real-world experiences and mental models often clash with
   digital interfaces, leading to inefficient workflows and frustration. He
   introduced the concept of the HOS as a way of understanding this friction.
   - *Real vs. Digital Balance:* The presentation emphasized the importance
   of balance between real-world engagement (liil - living is local) and
   global digital interactions (lig - life is global). Augmentation and
   displacement of human skills through technology were also discussed.
   - *Cognitive Overload:* Jeff highlighted the dangers of cognitive
   overload from excessive digital input, urging participants to be mindful of
   the limits of human sensory processing.
   - *The Martial Arts of the Digital Landscape:* The presentation
   described "Realit," a framework for navigating the digital world, comparing
   it to the martial art of Aikido, focusing on adapting to and working with
   the forces of the digital environment. "Mixed Digital Martial Arts" (MDMA)
   was introduced as a game space concept.
   - *Stages of Digital Awareness:* A model was presented outlining four
   stages of user engagement with technology: 0 (unaware), 1 (aware), 2
   (developing relationship), 3 (refining relationship), and 4 (UX - User
   Experience). This UX stage includes a 1-10 self-assessment of one's
   relationship with technology.
   - *Relationship Assessment:* A table detailing the differences in
   assessing relationships in real-world versus digital contexts was
   presented. Key differences include the difficulty in discerning observable
   behavior, trust, shared terms, bonding, and assessment of assets in the
   digital space.
   - *Building Better Digital Safety Rails:* The discussion touched on
   strategies for building safer and more intuitive digital systems, including
   the need to consider the embodied nature of humans and the limitations of
   digital spaces in replicating real-world interactions.

*Key Points:*

   - The transition from real-world interactions to digital ones presents
   significant challenges due to the differences in how humans perceive and
   interact with information.
   - Finding balance between real-world engagement and digital interactions
   is crucial for maintaining well-being.
   - Building safer and more human-centric digital experiences requires a
   deep understanding of human behavior and limitations. Existing digital
   systems often lack the safety rails present in the physical world.
   - Intentionality and mindful interaction with technology are key to
   mitigating negative impacts.
   - The one-to-many nature of digital interactions creates unique
   challenges absent from real-world interactions.

Text: https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-ccg-weekly-2025-08-26.md

Video: https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-ccg-weekly-2025-08-26.mp4
*CCG Weekly - 2025/08/26 11:57 EDT - Transcript* *Attendees*

Alan Karp, Alex Higuera, Dmitri Zagidulin, Erica Connell, Greg Bernstein,
Harrison Tang, Hiroyuki Sano, Ivan Dzheferov, Jeff O - HumanOS, Joe
Andrieu, Jonathan Bryce, Jonathan's Notetaker, Kaliya Identity Woman,
Kayode Ezike, Kerri Lemoie, Leo Sorokin, Mahmoud Alkhraishi, Phillip Long,
Przemek P, Rob Padula, Taylor Kendal, Ted Thibodeau Jr, Vanessa Xu, Vikas
Malhotra, Will Abramson
*Transcript*

Jeff O - HumanOS: Hey, Harrison.

Harrison Tang: Hey Jeff.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Got good sign and…

Harrison Tang: Hey Alan.

Alan Karp: Hey Jeff.

Jeff O - HumanOS: everything from me.

Alan Karp: Hi Jeff.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Hi Alan.

Alan Karp: I think the first time I've seen you outside of IW.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Dude, It's very rich to be with you. In any case, I'm
very grateful to have you once again in space with me. Good to see you,…

Alan Karp: I wouldn't have missed this.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Go on. hey Harrison,…

Harrison Tang: Hey, Jeff.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I'm thoughtful about sharing my screen properly.

Harrison Tang: Thanks. Yes,…

Jeff O - HumanOS: Can I try a quick thing?

Harrison Tang: please. yes.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I think you're muted, but I think you said yes. Okay, I'm
not sure how to do a screen share, per se. looks like down here Share
screen. Okay, let me see if I can do that properly here. See how this works
out.

Will Abramson: Okay. Hi, Jeff. All right.

Harrison Tang: Yeah, we can see it.

Jeff O - HumanOS: This one. Show my All right. Hold on, brother.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Welcome to the show.

Will Abramson: Multiverse. Hey

Jeff O - HumanOS: Hey Will. Hey guys. Hi Kalia. Wow, what a treat. how can
I share without all that fun? I'll just share a try this.

Jeff O - HumanOS: All right. I'm not sure…

Harrison Tang: You want me to share it?

Jeff O - HumanOS: why I'm doing that to y'all. …

Harrison Tang: I can share on your behalf. Yeah.

Will Abramson: But just don't share that tab just move off that tab.

Will Abramson: No.

Jeff O - HumanOS: right Yeah, let me start my present. Making sure I can
still do that. So, if I do that, what do you see there,…

Harrison Tang: Yeah.

Jeff O - HumanOS: guys? Anything?

Will Abramson: No. yeah,…

Jeff O - HumanOS: And how about No.

Will Abramson: got it. Perfect. No.

Harrison Tang: perfect. Yeah.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Was that it? Okay. And then somebody muted me.

Harrison Tang: No, we can't hear Fine. Yeah.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I just see my letter here. I don't see what's on that
screen. Okay, cool.

Harrison Tang: And I'll share your slides to the mailing list,…

Jeff O - HumanOS: Okay.

Harrison Tang: too, so people can reference it. Yeah. Yep.

Will Abramson: We'll give folks another minute and…

Will Abramson: then we'll get started.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I start Okay.

Harrison Tang: Just go ahead when you're

Will Abramson: Maybe I can just start. I mean, it's just the intro bits.
Yeah. So, welcome everyone to today's Credential Community Group call.
Thanks for joining us. Today, we've got Jeff, who some of you may not know.
Joining us is going to talk to us about something that he's been thinking
about deeply for a while. I'm looking forward to it. But before we get into
all that, let's just go over some of the administrative stuff. So, first
up, code of ethics and professional conduct. treat people with respect.
Let's have a positive, constructive conversation here together and within
this community. I think we're pretty great at that, but it's always good to
have a second IP note, so anybody's welcome to participate in these calls.

Will Abramson: However, all substantive contributions to any CCG work items
must be members of CCG with full IPR agreements signed. And if you have any
questions about that, just reach out to any of the chairs. We'd be happy to
point you in the right direction. so these call notes are recorded and will
be made available through the mailing list afterwards. So, look out for
that. next introductions and reintroductions. Is anybody new to the
community who wants to say hello to us today? Or anybody who hasn't said hi
for a while, wants to reintroduce, please jump on the queue. Okay. Not
seeing anybody. which is fine.
00:05:00

Will Abramson: Although we do like to hear people say hi to us. next
announcement and reminder is there anything anybody wants to share with the
community to say want to make us aware of? No, not seeing anybody.

Kaliya Identity Woman: We've got the internet identity workshop coming up
October 21 to 23.

Will Abramson: Yeah, go for it. Do you want to share a link? Maybe. I'm
sure okay. Harrison

Harrison Tang: Yeah, just quick thing. So I think my term actually for the
culture of the W3CCCG ends the end of this year. So if people are
interested to kind of be the next culture and take my term I think we can
talk about that in the follow-up sessions and things like that.

Harrison Tang: But I mean I think over the cultures can send over the
election processes and stuff like that the information u but I mean it's
pretty simple people can self-nominate or nominate other people but I think
the earlier we can have discussion the better right so we can pick great
culture we can have a lot of great culture candidates and pick the best
person to continue on the legacy

Will Abramson: Mhm. Yes,…

Will Abramson: thanks Harrison. That's a great shout. So yeah, if you're
interested in that and want to learn more, do reach out to any of the
co-chairs. Be happy to talk to you. And that actually reminded me something
that I guess an announcement from next Wednesday at I believe 10:00 a.m. UK
time, which is I'll find the time, but next Wednesday in the morning UK, we
are going to be having a coordination call around an Asia-Pacific series of
events in October. So, if you're around and interested in that and haven't
heard about it before, then, feel free to join us.

Will Abramson: it is on the CCG calendar, so anybody is welcome.

Will Abramson: Okay, with that out of the way, I think I'll hand over to
Jeff and I'm hoping we're going to have a very lively, interesting
conversation. thanks Jeff.

Jeff O - HumanOS: And I'm hopeful to get a hand from you guys sharing my
screen…

Jeff O - HumanOS: How are we doing there? Can you guys run that for me? Are
we up on a screen?

Will Abramson: Your screen is not sharing. Chrome, you stopped sharing it,…

Jeff O - HumanOS: Okay, one moment.

Will Abramson:

Will Abramson: I think.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Okay, let me jump in from that.

Jeff O - HumanOS: And here we go. going to be this guy. Let me knock this
Push that out of the way. And hopefully you are seeing my stuff.

Will Abramson: We can see your screen saver…

Will Abramson: but not the presentation.

Jeff O - HumanOS: How's that?

Will Abramson: Yeah, perfect.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Okay.

Will Abramson: Yeah, cheers.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Right on.

Jeff O - HumanOS: first of all, I just wanted to say, I really appreciate
being here and I know there's been a lot of discussion over time about sort
of broadening out the, community and, who's involved and included in the
scope of thinking and stuff like that. And I've been bystanding you all for
about eight years and it used to sound like NASA talk. It took me about a
year and a half to begin to understand what you're all working on so I'm
grateful to be able to reflect back to you what I've been experiencing. I'm
also pretty real in some senses of my expression and my way. So, this is
going to be a little different than I think most of your presentations.
It'll kind of be like the substitute teacher is sort of in. And the idea
that might be seeing a movie today, stuff like that.

Jeff O - HumanOS: So, might feel like underwater basket weaving at this
moment,…

Will Abramson: passive.

Jeff O - HumanOS: but I'm hopeful that as time goes by, it feels a little
more rich than that. so with that said, I also want to recognize that today
is the anniversary of my mother's passing. which was a special opportunity
for bring myself to this community. If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be
able to be here today. Burning Man is also going on which is an interesting
thing that I practice every year for eight years now. I've been extending
myself out into that local through technologies and my relationship with
technologies has allowed me to participate and be present there over all
these years without necessarily being there but feeling very richly
present. So this is going to be a part of the art and balance of technology
and things like that.
00:10:00

Jeff O - HumanOS: Quick question. Is my camera on?

Will Abramson: Yeah, you can have it on or…

Will Abramson: off as you please.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I was intending to have it on for the sake of that. but
if someone can pop it on for me in the control center, that'd be great.
Otherwise, fine as we are.

Will Abramson: It is on.

Jeff O - HumanOS: So I just wanted to say, this conversation is about the
relationship with the not The digital realm relationship that I'm going to
talk about determines your wellness and associating with people and how
that'll go for you as time goes by. So this conversation is to exercise the
idea of putting handles on thoughts with words. this language is in
development for the phrasing the ideacape. So please contribute if you wish.

Jeff O - HumanOS: send me an email or love to see you in a session sometime
in the future. So, with that said, I'm going to get to sort of the meat and
potatoes of stuff here. when I first came to the community, I was meeting
people and explaining who I was and what I did. I met this guy named
Victoriao and he said, " what is it you're working on?" And I said, " I
work on the human part of this." And this is what part I started telling
him I work on how people relate with the digital landscape this that and
the other and he kind of looked at me I said I'd really be interested in
your take on that and he said I think I would need to have a thing before I
could talk about this sort of thing. So early on I got a sense that my
approach to this topic was interestingly aligned for the community.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I also on my first visit Justin who many of you may know
gifted me on my first session because I brought up Jane Goodall at IW in
the sense that I feel like Jane Goodall watching the chimpanzees and I mean
that very respectfully being an outsider and looking in to see how things
are going for a community that's working very hard on very much important
stuff. So that's why I'm here. and Doc came to my first session. Joyce said
it was sort of like a standup act. So prepare maybe for a version of that.
Before I move off the screen, I want to talk about the idea of the human
operating system. And I'm going to tell two stories. And I believe these
stories will illustrate what the human operating system is all about. We
have a human nature.

Jeff O - HumanOS: And when we try and extend our sensibilities from here in
the world we're built through the glass into the digital landscape, it's
very hard to align what we know here with what we hope to have happen over
there. So these two stories will give you a sense of two people and how
their human operating system tried to get them from real world to digital
landscape. And here we go. First story is about Pat and her cat. Pat is a
classically trained reporter in the St. Louis area. She was a leading
female executive one of the first reporters on the Globe Democrat. She
became a client of mine deep into her life. So I didn't know her as a young
lady, but I knew her as a very feisty, rambunctious elder woman and I
helped her on board tech.

Jeff O - HumanOS: One day I got a call from her and she said, "Hey," she
said, "Jeff, I need you to come by and take a look at this document. I
wrote a book about Molly and I'm trying to get it into a competition and
they said they can't use it the way I submitted it." And I said, what's the
time frame?" She says, " the deadline's today." It was Friday, but they've
given me till Monday. So, I said," Okay. And I went by her place, kind of
leaned in over her shoulder, and I said, "You know, what do you have? I
figure I'm going to go from a doc to a PDF file or vice versa." she showed
me her file. She says, "Here are my files." And I looked in there, and at
the top of the list was page two. Below that was a file that said page
three. This went all the way down through 188.

Jeff O - HumanOS: So what Pat did as a classically trained typist who
replaces the sheet of paper when the page is full, literally extended that
into the digital landscape and created a new file every time she filled the
page. So I spent that weekend bringing all of those 181 pages into 122
pages properly pagenated and laid out and stuff like that. So her human
operating system made sense of the real world she was in.

Will Abramson: Harrison's on the queue. Harrison

Jeff O - HumanOS: She tried to pull that across to the digital landscape
and duplicate it there. And it was completely averse to her outcome She
couldn't have been more frictionful in terms of creating that in some ways.
That's one person. Yes. No. No.
00:15:00

Harrison Tang: Yeah, just want to double check. Jeff, are we supposed to
see a different slide because, you are still titled.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I really appreciate that check in. I'm trying to just go
with the audio for the moment. Thank you for checking though. the next sla
this is very recent. She called me up and she said, "Hey, I need some help
managing my files. where they're going. I don't know how to name them. I
just don't know what's happening. I need help." I said, "I look forward to
it." Went over to her place and she said, "Let me show you what I do." She
went to her email and showed me an email with an attachment. And she said,
This?" I said, "The attachment?" She says, "Yeah, the attachment." She
said, "Here's what I do to save this. I open this and then I print it out
and then I take the printed pages and I scan them and then I can save them
where I know they are and I can email them."

Jeff O - HumanOS: So because Elaine did not know how to save as when she
just can go right to the email and pick that attachment and pick save and
place That is beyond her sensibilities. So she went through a process that
she found worked. If I print this out and if I scan it, the scan software
allows me to attach that file to an email. So the amount of effort people
go through is extraordinary in terms of just dealing with going from this
side in real life to digital world. I hope those were somewhat illustrative
of what I've been experiencing by the hundreds and thousands of times in
different variations in story. A lot of people are adept, a lot of people
aren't. So I'll leave it at that for now and let's go to the next slide.

Jeff O - HumanOS: So this is going to be Supposedly the next slide you
said. Okay. Hey, someone else out there in control center.

Alan Karp: Maybe you should print them out and…

Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah.

Alan Karp: then hold them up one at a p one at a time.

Jeff O - HumanOS:

Jeff O - HumanOS: What's that? Say that again.

Alan Karp: I said maybe you should print out the slides and…

Jeff O - HumanOS: My goodness.

Alan Karp: then hold up the camera.

Jeff O - HumanOS: There you go. I mean, beautiful. Okay, I Did I do that?
Okay, so I'm thinking I'm in control of this again here. Let's see. Is that
All right, I'm so sorry, folks. And thank you for bearing with So, what it
was like to be a computer guy. In 1988, I learned the emperor had no
clothes. I was working at Best Buy. I was tasked with putting five
computers on the shelf for sale. It took three weeks to get them running. I
saw tech support being born. It was it was grueling. It was gruesome. Those
were the days of hardware compatibility where you simply hoped a video card
worked with that monitor. the software and operating systems apps were
just, not tight yet. The stability of those programs was crazy.

Jeff O - HumanOS: And just the workflow of getting people to understand how
to behave on the other, through the glass was so interesting. So, it all
kind of started like First of all, we're all in this together and it ain't
totally comfortable. Secondly, the gear isn't right. The software is not
tight and people don't know quite what to do with it. So, I ended up being
like an IT roadie in the businesses and the homes and the lives of my
clients. And there are some people I am now serving a third generation. I
expect that they'll be having children soon and all things depending. I may
actually be serving four generations of people at this point. I feel like a
disco ball thing is happening. My mission is to reflect on and reflect
outwardly as I've been invited to do today.

Jeff O - HumanOS: 35 years of experiences witnessing people being pulled
from their familiar world into an otherworldly realm. This has created an
awareness story and an intention practice I refer to as reality. And a
person's reality is a relationship they choose to have or not have with
information technology systems. Those reality choices will reflect into
their reality. So if you look at the top it's changed from computer guy to
digital culture anthropologist. our human nature has dependable exploits in
the sense of vulnerabilities and those seductions may be exploited by
systems leveraging design forces.
00:20:00

Jeff O - HumanOS: These often offer convenience, sex, free, self
aggrandisement, voyerism and power which can be in the form of force, info,
finance, control. So some combination of these things are used and
depending on who a person is and what culture they're from the force of
persuasion is variable. the systems can usually figure that out and hit you
where it counts. So, let's talk about the idea of people and systems. I
like the yin-yang because it suggests the idea of balance. All As we go
forward and talk about this, and there's going to be a little bit of stuff
in a little while that is going to work with the yang. We're not talking
about proportion here. We're talking about balance.

Jeff O - HumanOS: this if we take a person who's 99% real world and 1%
system, if that 1% of their life is well balanced for them, this is what
that relationship looks like. if you looked at how much of it real world
versus how much of it is digital, it would be very out of balance. But the
bottom line is a small bit of digital and a large dose of real world is
what works for a person like that. So here again, this isn't proportion.
This is a matter of balance as we talk about it. One of the premises of the
idea of real it is that tech always delivers of convenience and the science
of understanding the cost of that convenience is a really big issue. One of
the other things that's really big for me is the idea of augmentation and
displacement like navigation. for a person who is never good with knowing
how to get around now they can at least show up on time.

Jeff O - HumanOS: they can get somewhere. thank goodness for the
augmentation of the system for someone who was really good at knowing their
way around and then just decided that convenience of tech was just so great
they didn't have to do it anymore. They could have displaced that portion
of their natural humanistic strengths over to the system and they're not
good at that anymore. Phone numbers are like this too. If you couldn't
remember numbers, now they're all in your phone. you could remembers but
remember but you don't anymore because they're in your phone that's a cost
the idea of hybrid where you do remember some and you give it up to the
system for others there's a balance there for such things so augmentation
and displacement is a big part of this the other idea in terms of
augmentation and displacement is a thing I work with called lil and lig l i
l li l

Jeff O - HumanOS: IG L I L stands for living is local. It occurs within 20
to 30 minutes of where your feet touch the ground, where your car can
drive, where your horse can ride, where you can run, however you get
around. Your local is usually the people you can reach out and touch. how
much of your time, your passion, your capital is being directed away from
where your feet touch the ground because you've got a relationship with the
other side of the glass where life is global.

Jeff O - HumanOS: living is local liil. Life is global lig. If people are
looking through devices and extending themselves into circumstances far
away that really don't matter and they're entrapped in that the people
around them the community around them is not benefiting from what's
happening there. So the idea of displacement and augmentation can literally
have to do with how people are tilted away from where they belong in a
sense. that also can blow away our sensor package. the human animal is
built with a pair of eyes, ears, nose, mouth, touch. we're only designed to
see as far as we can see. We're only designed to hear what we can hear.
We're only really designed to feel what's in front of us.

Jeff O - HumanOS: When you impart so much input to a system that's designed
for limited intake, you're going to have cognitive overload, which is
rampant in people because they're being pulled from their inreal life tree
forts. where they hang out, where they at least are familiar, maybe not
totally comfortable, but familiar. They understand the rules and the laws
there. They're being pulled out of their three fors into the digital realm
and it's really hard on them. So let's move to the next part of this and
what comes of it from my point of view. come on buddy. There we go. So the
human operating system has to deal with extending ourselves in real life
digital boundary. We talk about Y this KY whatever.

Jeff O - HumanOS: So I'm going to talk about KY platform and KY operating
system. The platform we're talking about today is the human creature and
it's running human nature. The code and everything you guys write runs on
top of human sensibilities. And for me I've been witnessing how intention
is forged from sheer intellect into code is law and it is quite
informative. I've been watching how you guys do this and I say guys in a
very inclusive sense of course. and it's been really something to behold.
And I get to step back to my community and say there are hardworking,
well-intended people doing good stuff. have faith. Talk about you guys a
lot. So with this in mind, we have this human experience. And human
experience has examples of the human creature extending itself into realms
we're not built the other side of the glass. We're not built for airflight.
00:25:00

Jeff O - HumanOS: We're not built for space, for deep sea, for biohazard,
to be in fires. Each of these realms demands that we apply amendments to
our body, not only to function there, but to not die while being there.
When I talk to people about hey, what about are you checking the cookie
settings? I just hit accept. I was like, okay. And you just walk through
intersections on roadways. You don't look both ways. to see which color the
light is. Listen, that's frictionful. Why don't you just walk right into
the intersection of And they look at me like I'm weird. I'm like, Cuz you
see what can smash you. you can get creamed. But my bud on the other side
of the glass here, you can't necessarily see that stuff.

Jeff O - HumanOS: So the practice of friction, which means security, this
is part of how we protect ourselves as we move through a place we aren't
built for. So I just try and help people understand that in real life
they're doing frictionful stuff all the time. The frictionlessness of the
digital realm is very very challenging. As Doc has said, time and distance
doesn't seem to occur there. Yeah. if you're in a virtual Burning Man and
you choose to walk across the pla instead of jump the portal, yeah, okay,
there's time and there's space there. That's a choice. But getting there,
isn't really that hard to do. I can be looking through a webcam right now
onto the playa at webcast and I can see what's going on there and I can
listen to bmir.radio

Jeff O - HumanOS: radio and I can listen to what's being broadcast. So I
can listen to that radio while looking at the play. I'm pretty much there
and I'm not dealing with weather or food or ice or water. So we do things
to protect ourselves as we extend ourselves into strange places we're not
built for. Digital landscape is a version of that. So the human operating
system is an emulator mode which does its best to align the sensibilities
known in real life lessons through the glass onto the digital landscape.
last thing here and I'm going to pause a minute as we operate and go back
and forth through the glass. What amendments are helpful if not
foundational to manifesting our intention?

Jeff O - HumanOS: I'm going to pause for a minute and…

Will Abramson: Yeah, I can manage the chat.

Jeff O - HumanOS: if there's anybody has any questions or anything. I'm not
able to see the chat, but I would love to and assist on that if I'll keep
going. So, as you go back and forth, what's going on? How can we manage
Real We talked about that. That's the relationship we choose to have or not
have with The more we know about these systems, we can make better choices.
I had a person tell me once that I was being very cool, calm, and collected
while they were giving me a lot of heat one day. And I said, they caught
back up with me. They're like, "Man, I was giving you so much s*** that
day, but you were really cool about it." it was like this Iikido thing. And
I said, "Is that good?" And you said, "Yeah, it's good."

Jeff O - HumanOS: I looked up what Iikido is and it's a martial art that
doesn't really have any attack moves. It deals with the forces around you.
it doesn't aim to harm the attacker. It works with moving with the forces
and recognizing the attack and getting off the X as it were. So the idea of
Iikido where you're in a space of forces that you aren't really in control
of the digital landscape can be seen as that at large. You blend the idea
of having this relationship with tech and the martial art of iikido you get
what I'm calling reality which is what I'm casually referring to as the
martial art of the digital landscape.

Jeff O - HumanOS: This is what I've been refining for years and it has
found its own language and verbiage along the way. I did not notice real it
wasn't until this guy gave me the iikido thing that I hit real and it blew
my mind. So let's move on to this MDMA often known as tasy. Ironically and
interestingly enough I'm just going to refer to it as mixed digital martial
arts. And it's sort of a game space of shoots and letters. on the other
side of the glass, knowing who and what's in the room with you really
matter. Those are the forces you're going to be dealing with. What are the
terms and conditions of this place? What are the ethics versus the
economics? Which is leading here? Is this company ethics-based? Can you
tell? Maybe I should find out.
00:30:00

Jeff O - HumanOS: we usually don't know shadow system stuff because it's
shadow system stuff. You have to know to know about shadow systems. lack of
awareness is rife. You really kind of don't know what's going on. If you
don't have certain things on your browser and you pull up to certain web
pages, it's like going to a taco stand and while they're handing you a taco
through the window, they're slapping 58 stickers all over which weights
your car down and gets attention from all the people whose stickers they
are blah blah blah. So if you can't even tell that websites are doing that
to you when you drive up, that's kind of weird and it's interesting So
there's trust challenge out there for all kinds of reasons. we've seen lots
of very powerful places get very exploited. We've seen a lot of sad stories.

Jeff O - HumanOS: And then our human spidey senses are just very dullled by
this set of circumstances where we can't extend the sensor package at its
best through the glass. It doesn't work. And we'll be looking at that in a
little bit too. So let's move over to the idea of the different stages of
moving through awareness. And I currently have stages zero through four.
and this is your device, your platform, know the terms. Knowing yourself
has a lot to do with what are your vulnerabilities. What your
vulnerabilities are in real world are probably going to be more so in
digital if you're not careful. the device, is it mobile, is it a satellite,
who knows? they all have different natures.

Jeff O - HumanOS: the platform similar terms and conditions craft the
nature of the space. So with the forces in the room, here's the stages we
go through. Let's first talk about what re for. We're built for dirt and
gravity and food. No tech. If you want to find out what you're built for,
take your clothes off and go stand in nature. That and everything that
comes with it is what we are built for. that is the human animal in the
realm it's built for working perfectly fine. Then suddenly we find out so
that's at zero. You don't have to do anything to be there because we're
born there. Then there's this thing that happens where we become aware of
this if you're old enough to remember sentences like this. Hey have you
tried this the internet have you been on the web?

Jeff O - HumanOS: If you're old enough to remember saying that, you were
born at zero because one was just surfacing over the horizon. And the
awareness of the fact that this was out there also brought with it the idea
of a general relationship with technologies. It didn't mean that people
jumped in because they knew it was there, but it meant they knew it was
there and suddenly something changed. It's like understanding that people
can fly when you never had any idea people couldn't Get someone from a
primitive tribe, show them an airplane, you'll see what I'm talking about.
So the next phase after awareness of this is kind of the savvy what's the
experience and the knowledge that I'm learning. There seems to out here.
There seems to be give and take in this space. it's not like what I know.

Jeff O - HumanOS: so I'm experiencing I'm talking to people about it. I'm
trying to get my act together. By the time you get to that, if you keep on
trucking and really try and refine it, you get into the idea of reality.
Not in those terms, but you start crafting and building the functional
persona that you're going to be working with human operating system tools.
We'll talk about that in a little bit. Joe Andrews had a great bit about
functional fluid identity. So, the way that we present ourselves in certain
web communities is very different than we would present in other
communities.

Jeff O - HumanOS: And if you realize that you might have a couple different
emails, you might have a couple different member IDs in a certain space so
that you aren't seen in all of your different facets through one glass that
normally doesn't show all of your different facets. I don't know if I said
that well, but I think you kind of might get what I'm getting at there. So
the last part of this once you born from the dirt, become aware of this
thing, kind of start dealing with it at two, trying to work it out and be
my best in there at three or not. Some people don't work that hard at it.
They just roll with the flow and take what comes, believe me. And it's not
because they're lazy, they just don't know what else to do. And some of
them are lazy and don't care, and that's fine. So stage four, the UX.
00:35:00

Jeff O - HumanOS: I know you guys put the letter U and the letter X
together for a lot of things. this is one of my little thought babies here.
So, I hope you like it. I am looking to trademark it because it's a very
functional part of this language space I'm trying to build. The UX in this
particular reference is the individual's outcome of their relationships
with tech and being a human. How's it going for you? I like to ask people,
in terms of your relationships, on a scale of 1 to 10, how do you feel
about it? Where would you put yourself right now? Just at large, how do you
feel about your relationships with tech? And that one to 10 rating will
give you a sense of really what's been going on in particular stages two
and three of the above.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Once they were aware of it and decided to jump in, then
their experience and their knowledge and whether or not they're able to
craft sensible movement and intention control in there has a lot to do with
how they feel as a person. And a lot of people's UX is very rough. They
like what tech can do and it comes at a also pay hellishly for what tech
can do because it does other things they didn't expect or want. So, I'm
hopeful that's holding up.

Will Abramson: I have a question. There.

Jeff O - HumanOS: And Will mentioned as I was coming in to do this, he
said, "Yeah, maybe something a little more I can do your accent, Will, but
I'm not going to because you're here, but not nearly as great as my man."
so anyways, he said, maybe, kind of a little less doodly and drawy. I said,
"All right."

Jeff O - HumanOS: And I've done that to this point. And this is for you and
everyone out there. I'm going to bring back a drawing that I brought to my
second to last IW session. And I give the sessions I gave this one three
times. I gave it once a day because I wanted as many brilliant heads as are
in that community to hopefully find an opportunity to come sit with me and
give me their opinion and their wisdom. And what was really cool about
that, because I don't see you all very often, is that doing it three days
in a row, I got Rev 1.0. I got Rev one on day one. I got Rev two, on day
two. And so each next day's community benefited from the prior days
add-ons. It was really great. So, what I'm going to do is pull up an image
here, and I want to go through it slowly. Try not to go too far ahead of me.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I don't think I can use a pointer at this point, pun
intended, but let's just kind of look at these four stages in a rough and
tumble real world way. So, let's work from the left. And please try not to
read ahead of me. I would really appreciate that. So, what I'm calling at
zero, the circle is a real world boundary. it is everything a person knows.
That is the bounds of their knowledge. A circle that's a brain in there.
Sorry, it's the best I could do. So at zero is just a singular person aware
of the real world. It's just a person in their brain naked in the woods.
Then you see this line that drops down. That's the awareness and the access
line. You notice it doesn't touch either of those at zero or at one stages.
It's somewhere in between. You may have learned that there's a thing called
the web or you may be eight months old and somebody puts an iPad in front
of you to see what you'll do. You're not really aware but you have access.

Jeff O - HumanOS: So once you cross that line in some sense you're now at
one and you can in a sense never go back to at zero again. So at one we see
this little poof that has occurred in the middle of this with the brain.
there's a strong attraction in this stage. You can see at the top pointing
down the human curious brain is going wow look at this thing. what is this
thing? I hear it can do things. And so the goal of this phase is just to
understand that the digital landscape appears in the real world and that
you're just aware of it. You have an informed awareness of it. When you're
informed and aware of it, it becomes generally more and more attractive. So
we see this little line between at one and at two with these little dots.
Those are the multiple influences. An iPad put in a kid's hands. getting a
kid I don't know. It could be an adult. It could be whatever.
00:40:00

Jeff O - HumanOS: There's lots of things we do to encourage people to start
this relationship. So at two, we have the inevitable relationship beginning
and we see that the brain is now kind of entering inside this clouded
thing. this at one thing is popped open and there's things going in and out
and back and forth. And this little dashed new sort of outer thing is kind
of a new relationship realm between the brain and at one. It's sort of an
inner realm and below here we see again this is where give and take
relationship forms the rules the strengths the weaknesses here is where a
person's reality comes into place those choices with systems where the
human operating system is hopefully understanding what's going on and
they're able to make sense of it so the goal in this phase is to understand
the synergy between the real world and the digital landscape

Jeff O - HumanOS: When we get ready to go to stage three, you see that
there's this little back and forth with the dots because these two stages
iterate a lot. In stage three, at three, the refinement of the relationship
is on. That's where we have the game space reality is in play. Sam, which
is the same as me, that's your digital profile, which creates, and again,
folks, another one of my thought babies, also being trademarked, the idea
of a yudoo doll, not a voodoo doll. when you get out in these systems and
you're doing stuff that you do, you are making the voodoo doll for them and
you're showing them where to poke it. So, it's really a you do doll. You're
giving the systems heads up. So, the goal here is understanding proportion
and balance.

Jeff O - HumanOS: And you'll see in the circle at three that we have kind
of that little clouded relationship between the brain and at zero sort of
back out on the other side. At zero is sort of in its own space, but it now
knows of this thing. At one we see the outline of the yin-yang there. And
again, it's just a proportion. Make sure that the amount of tech a person
is taking on fits their world properly. doesn't overwhelm it. Make sure
that at one isn't squeezing the real world into the very boundaries of what
Almost feel like they're being pushed out of conscious understandings. Some
people are very entangled in that for sure. We hear about it all the time.
So, at four, we hear about the real it reality outcome. And I never knew
what to put in that dang circle for so freaking long. And I realized it's
because it's a rating. This is the UX.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I would say to a person beforehand before showing them
this on a scale of 1 to 10 how do you feel about what's going on with you
intact overall where would you put it and that number goes in here and this
is how much command and communication does a person feel they have with
this relationship how much safety privacy and security contribute to safety
how safe in terms of do they feel they're in control of privacy and their
security and what's the comfort is the pace Is the load that's coming in is
their ability to manifest their own intentions without having other things
happen all the time okay for them. I see that we have about 17 minutes
left. I think I'm going to be done in about three or four. So we ought to
be in great shape for some questions and I really hope or comments I want
as much as you guys have of all of it.

Jeff O - HumanOS: So, I'm hopeful and I'm going to pause here for a moment
because this might be a good place to let people ask questions. if you
don't ask any questions, I'm going to assume you're either gone or this
makes pretty much sense. Anything to add, please.

Will Abramson: I have something.

Will Abramson: It's more just a general reflection like this. you're
modeling it relationships but really you said at zero there is no
technology but actually humans have been interacting and having
relationships with and through technologies for a long long time but you
could map this it's just the fact that the digital relationships that we
have are much more complex and extend us into they create these new realms
whereas non-digital technologies we're still kind of using those
technologies to interact in the real world that we kind of know and
understand. and my other comment was, if you went back one slide, you kind
of have this model from 0 to four from the view of the individual.

Will Abramson: But I think if you have a look at other technologies what
happens also is society builds up some knowledge throughout there is
probably a similar kind of loop to look at in society how they slowly
understand and create expectations and this is the safety equipment that
you need right crossing the road is dangerous so we're going to put some
good signals like traffic lights and some good rules and expectations on
cars on the road so that people understand and…
00:45:00

Will Abramson: when I'm crossing the road I just look at the traffic light
right it's not like I have to read this big complicated page of documents
is arcane and…

Jeff O - HumanOS: Correct. Yes,…

Will Abramson: very hard to understand.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Yeah,…

Will Abramson: That's the only comments that I think

Jeff O - HumanOS: great points on both counts. And yes, technologies have
been around for a long time. And Will, you said something that blew my mind
a while back. You're talking about the original communications technology.
yeah, my man. It's been around forever. What's really crazy about this and
I should say information systems and connected systems at zero is before
that sort of thing really TV yeah it's a connected system…

Will Abramson: Mhm. Yeah. Mhm.

Jeff O - HumanOS: but it was different we definitely had our minds changed
and influenced by what we saw the cognitive load was starting to come on
board you're able to see things that are not normally seeable so you start
dealing with that and radio same sort of thing before image and as we go
back

Jeff O - HumanOS: Will the original technology I tried to find the
original? I do believe it is Smoke signals and drums. Smoke signals work
during the day if you wanted to be quiet and hope nobody observed the
messaging. Drumming was at night when you couldn't see the messages. So
yes, tech has been around for a long time. this particular version of it is
insidious in the sense that it pursues or pays attention and continues to I
don't want to say chase after but in a sense chase after us and it does
actually change the way our minds and our values tend to execute and I'm
having a there we go problem with my dang thing Okay, so great points. Yes,
and thank you.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I'm going to push to the next slide and this is a cleanup
of what we were doing last time Will and I believe Allan you were there as
So when we talk about spidey senses what about relationship assessment
stringencies when we look at whether or not to have a relationship with
someone or something what are we gauging? our spidey senses typically look
and this isn't a complete list. I'd love it to grow more rephrase it. can
we observe the behavior? Do we feel a seduction factor? Are there shared
terms? Is there bonding in shared spaces? blah blah. In real life, almost
all of these things can happen. It doesn't mean for instance in line item
three, In real life, you might feel like you can trust somebody. It's a
rel, over there in the meaning far left. It's a dependable assessment, but
it gets better over time in the real world as you hang with people.

Jeff O - HumanOS: So it doesn't mean that just because you're in the real
world trust works. The digital landscape is a reflection of the real world
plus and it's very different. So what's particularly interesting about this
table here is where things don't seem to come across or you really kind of
can't do and where you can only hope for Observable behavior. You really
don't get a first-person point of view on the digital landscape. It's like
saying you can see the universe from here. We just can't. it leverages
primal seduction to convenience seduction in the digital landscape. For
sure, that's in there. Trust. again, you hope it gets dependable and more
and better over time. do we have shared and understood terms? Do we
understand what each other mean? I think that's damn near blank. There are
very few people who get that.

Jeff O - HumanOS: people are starting to rise to the friction of learning
what it means and dealing with it. bonding in shared spaces, are you
comfortable being together? How do you feel about somebody letting someone
know that you are part of this community or that online community? what
comes with that? can you tell whether or not telling somebody that you're
part of that community, what's that going to mean to people? You can
normally tell if you're hanging out with bikers in the real world that when
you walk into a restaurant with bikers, people are going to know you hang
with bikers. But if you're hanging out on a biker website and you hang
around, you work with people who hate two- wheeled vehicles, you might not
be comfortable telling them stuff like that or you wouldn't know what they
think of that web space, blah blah blah. So, this starts getting kind of
tangly. I don't want to get too far into it because I want to leave time
for questions, but can you tell if assets are being brought to the
relationship? it's augmenting me, yeah, but what's it taking? What's the
load balance?

Jeff O - HumanOS: is it helping me or is it hurting me to use this sort of
thing? Is it inspiring me to better ways of being a community member or
better ways of process and uplifting things or is it showing me better ways
to undermine things? digital landscape isn't physical generally. So, it
sign of physical robustness is hard to discern other than a computer that
might be smoking. And I don't mean cigarettes, but that would also be an
indication of ness for a mental wellness, yeah, I think you can tell
whether or not a site is generally mentally balanced from your point of
view and whether it tends to stay that way or whether it's all over the
place and intelligence. You can usually tell if a website has some
intellect and whatnot going on. so this last part is probably the most
confusing thing. I wasn't sure if I was going to bring it in, but this is
the edge space.
00:50:00

Jeff O - HumanOS: this is what's hot off the griddle still smoothing it out
and in the end this is me and I would cherish an opportunity to hear from
you guys whether it's at IW in a session or via email I know this stuff is
very new and I know you all have very heavy hidden sessions you need to
attend when you get out there as I mentioned I give them more than once and
I'm just hopeful that should you be around and if this wet your whistle a
fair number of you have been to my stuff…

Jeff O - HumanOS: but a fair number I know are also busy doing other
things. So, if we could benefit from each other in the future about it,
that would be great. And I'll leave it at that for now and go ahead and
unshare my screen or whatever I need to do to get out of here.

Will Abramson: Great. Thanks,…

Will Abramson: Yeah,…

Jeff O - HumanOS: Yeah, buddy.

Will Abramson: I appreciate you coming on. So, I'm one of the people who
has appreciate Jeff's talks at IW. So, I thought it'd be nice to share that
with this community. some people don't always get to go to IW. so if you
have questions, jump on the queue.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Am I blowing your screen away by the way?

Will Abramson: I see a question from in the chat. Jonathan, do you want to
speak to that or shall I Happy to read it out. Maybe Jeff can read it.
Yeah. …

Jeff O - HumanOS: Would you un here? Let me unshare that.

Will Abramson: practical Jeff.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I'm sorry. Pull me down, Good gracious. All right. Yeah,
John's out there. Yeah. Say that again,…

Will Abramson: So he says how do you account for capability or disabilities
to continuously learn and adapt to new technology?

Jeff O - HumanOS: Let me go to the chat,…

Will Abramson: I think it's in your model I think he's saying in your model
…

Jeff O - HumanOS: I think. Go ahead. Yep.

Will Abramson: how do you account for somebody's ability to learn and grow
and understand these spaces and the technologies that we interact with
better over time. I think that's maybe two and…

Will Abramson: three, right? The bouncing backwards and forwards is kind of
Yeah.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Yeah, that's exactly right.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Very astute, and I don't know, is my camera on at this
point? Not that it matters a ton, but yeah, that's really astute on both
your points. Jonathan, absolutely. There's a constant iteration of things
happening. there are updates, there are term and condition changes, there
are new systems. Absolutely. And so that's that iteration between two and
three that keeps going back and forth. yeah, it's a constant feedback loop.
That's actually where the human operating system is in play. that is the
operational realm of it. That is where reality is in play. what new forces
are available to me to accomplish what sorts of tasks and things like that?
Yeah.

Jeff O - HumanOS: …

Will Abramson: Yeah, I had a question about I don't know advice for this
community …

Will Abramson: what should we be doing to build better safety rails or
equipment to the tools that we're in or are there any examples of digital
systems that you've seen have handled that sort of transformation right

Jeff O - HumanOS: let me give an example of how to do the martial art as it
were. My kiddo wanted to get into Instagram. we had an agreement that she
would only be connected to people she knew and there was a limit of 25
people. So she got onto Instagram because she knew the people she already
had a text thread with them. So I said here's your other rule. no likes
nothing like you can't like no thumbs up in Instagram. If you saw something
you like from a friend I want you to jump out onto text because you got
their text. You tell them hey that was really funny on Insta.

Jeff O - HumanOS: I hope the bunny's okay or whatever. And that way, my kid
can accomplish her intention of informing a friend that she appreciated and
thought about what was done, but not necessarily feeding back into the
system, which then profiles and kind of now this is a person's action.

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Jeff O - HumanOS: It's not so much a code thing, but I can't speak to the
code thing as much, but you see how to work around systems so that you can
accomplish attention without being scoped, per se. Kyle, who I know brought
up quite a topic that everybody's been speaking about, he came to my
session on Burning Man and he said and there was some really great things
that came out of that. It was the year that Burning Man was virtual because
of COVID 2020.
00:55:00

Jeff O - HumanOS: And so they went virtual and my session was when
something very private goes very public because normally that's an offline
environment and you kind of can't so what was augmented what was displaced
okay what was displaced couldn't have sex with strangers couldn't give
people gifts what was augmented you didn't have to deal with the weather
you didn't have to pay the cost if you were unhealthy can't handle with
that those environments you could go so we went through a lot of stuff
there and at the end of that session Kyle sent me an email and he said, I
really appreciated that session. I forgot how he stated it, but he said,
going to your session makes me think about coding differently. So, I don't
know if you ever get with Kyle, maybe you can ask him what that meant.
there was another little bit of that.

Jeff O - HumanOS: One of the things that came out of that session that was
really wild and we ran up on it the last minute was that when we build
things in the digital landscape that we can model from that's in the real
world when you build a virtual Burning Man that's pretty doable. They did a
really nice job.

Will Abramson: Mhm.

Jeff O - HumanOS: So when we build in the digital landscape based on real
world models, we land pretty nicely depending on the intention and ethics
expertise of the people.

Jeff O - HumanOS: what's really challenging though is when you try and
build something out in the digital landscape that is truly otherworldly and
it doesn't happen here, you've got to be really careful because you're
bringing down something in a sense almost another planet into this world.
Artificial intelligence is enabling that for I like to call it advanced
systems when you see a boat sitting on really heavy rolling waters in the
middle of the night without a transponder on, that's really suspicious.
And, how can you track that unless you have a satellite, unless you have an
intelligence community, unless you have transponder stuff, unless you have
signals intelligence. So, being able to bring all of those sensibilities
together in an awareness is advanced tech.

Jeff O - HumanOS: And here we're getting to the edges of seeing things
we're not meant we're not built to be able to see. We have to be really
careful.

Jeff O - HumanOS: New ways of means seeing new things and that can get
wild. Yeah, we talk well.

Will Abramson: Yeah, just as you saying that,…

Will Abramson: it reminds me of something a good friend told me recently,
which we are embodied and implaced humans, right? We're not just mindlessly
floating around. We are minds in a real world place. And I think when you
design systems that become portals to these solely digital places where you
can encounter millions of other minds floating around in these spaces.
That's not natural to our human way of doing things. Right? A place is very
constrained.

Will Abramson: There's not many people you can fit in a place that you can
have an interaction with. in a big stadium how many can you get? 100,000.
it's not the same, is it?

Jeff O - HumanOS: No, and…

Jeff O - HumanOS: it speaks to what you were talking about earlier. I
forgot how you brought it up, but yeah, it's the matter of the scope.

Jeff O - HumanOS: We are just not meant so yeah, this is what's very
different about this technology is the one to many factor is outlandish.
There's no way that on planet Earth you could make a mistake and have many
people around the world see that and not forget it about you. It's very
very very interesting.

Will Abramson: Mhm. Cool.

Will Abramson: Any final thoughts, questions before we close? All right, go
for it.

Alan Karp: Yeah, I just want to say that I've been using Jeff's approach in
designing user interfaces to try to think about the human side rather than
what the application wants to say.

Alan Karp: I think about what would be natural for the human and that very
often is not natural for the code.

Will Abramson: Cool.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Thanks, Alan.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Yeah, you would thank you for all your time investing in
this space with me. I really appreciate it and thank you for that feedback
to this community. That's awesome.

Will Abramson: Thanks a lot, Jeff. I think that that will close,…

Will Abramson: but I appreciate you spending the time coming on and sharing
your thoughts. Always interesting to hear from you.

Jeff O - HumanOS: Yeah, really appreciate it.

Jeff O - HumanOS: And if there's any interest in more and…

Jeff O - HumanOS: deeper of this sort of thing, there's more and it goes
deeper. Okay, thanks a lot everybody. Take care. Bye-bye.
01:00:00

Will Abramson: Have a good day everybody. Cheers.
Meeting ended after 01:00:16 👋

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