[MINUTES] W3C CCG CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2024-06-24

Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:


A video recording is also available at:


VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2024-06-24

  Kerri Lemoie, Simone Ravaioli, Dmitri Zagidulin
  Our Robot Overlords
  Ildiko Mazar, Dmitri Zagidulin, Naomi, Stuart Freeman, Alex H, 
  Andy Griebel, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), 
  Geun-Hyung, Michal Jarmolkowicz, Eugene, Phil Barker, Juan 
  Caballero, Rajesh, Keith Hackett, Mahesh Balan - pocketcred.com, 
  Eric Shepherd, PL/T3, Nate Otto

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Juan Caballero:  Can you hear me.
Juan Caballero:  Just in case anyone is talking I cannot hear 
Juan Caballero:  Thank you so much yes that's reassuring to know 
  that I have no issue with the audio thank you.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Welcome everyone uh I think I was I was muted.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   All right.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Welcome everyone to the weekly uh VC Edge 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  These calls are recorded anyone can 
  participate in the calls you do not need a w3c account however to 
  make any substantive contributions.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh to any of the specifications you do have to 
  be a member of the ccg and sign uh IPR agreement so if you 
  haven't done that and you want to contribute please let us know 
  reach out to myself or to ildo or to Simone and we'll set you up.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh The Columns are recorded and transcribed uh 
  Auto transcribed and the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Available at the ccg uh GitHub repo.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We use a queuing system so uh click on the 
  raise raise your hand icon in uh the jitsui or type Q Plus in the 
  chat and it'll uh it should queue you up.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Let's uh let's do introductions and 
  reintroductions does anyone new here and would like to introduce 
  themselves uh go ahead and type Q Plus or raise your hand.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Or if anybody hasn't uh introduced themselves 
  in a while uh go ahead Juan.
Juan Caballero:  Yes good afternoon Juan carvio here from C and 
  being part of also the neon team that is working on on exploring 
  the utilization of wallets within the educational sector.
Juan Caballero:  I work as an aspiring designer architecture 
  manager within the couch University in Saudi Arabia.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  A fantastic welcome we're glad to have you 
  here do you mind um.
<ildiko_mazar> Welcome, Juan.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Pasting in chat uh a URL to to the university 
  or to your projects uh.
<juan> www.kaust.edu.sa
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Anyone else uh want to reintroduce introduce 
  or reintroduce themselves if you haven't uh spoken up.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you thank you Juan I see the the URL.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right uh let's do announcements and 
  reminders uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Does anybody have uh community events that 
  they want to remind people of.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I know we have iaw coming up in the fall 
  closer to Halloween.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh I know we've got badge Summit and uh 
  Boulder Colorado coming up uh later in July.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Any other uh relevant conferences uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   That I'm.
<ildiko_mazar> Here in Europe we have a big international 
  conference called Online Educa Berlin: https://oeb.global/
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Okay uh so in that case let's uh let's move on 
  to our we go mentions that there's the European conference in 
  chat online educa Berlin.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh sounds really interesting I wish I was 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Any any other announcements uh while we.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  What people are connecting.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right uh so the main topic of this week's 
  call is just free form it's uh office hours uh and uh open Agenda 
  which means.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Free to ask questions share how your projects 
  have been going what you've been encountering if there's any 
  roadblocks you've been running into.
<ildiko_mazar> It's only in November, but registration is now 
  open with early bird rates available. Digital credentials are one 
  of the sub-themes.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Or what's on your mind in general in the area 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh educational credentials technology and so 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Or report outs from any interesting 
  conferences uh you've been to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I can start on on our end uh on so I wear 
  several several different hats aside from uh co-chair of uh this 
  excellent task force here.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Uh so.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I work with mostly with mit's digital 
  credentials Consortium.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh where uh I'm I'm technical architect for an 
  open-source Mobile Wallet.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  A uh issuer Suite.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh so UI and back-end services and a verifier 
  Suite in addition uh I also help out the Arizona State University 
  team on very similar uh kind of things so I work on uh their 
  corner pocket.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Mobile Wallet mobile credential wallet uh the 
  issuer services they're verifiers and so on and I also help out.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Um Phil Long with various projects uh for 
  Chamber of Commerce for T3.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And and so on uh so we're doing.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So with MIT and and ASU continuing work on uh 
  just adding features to the wallet uh and so we've got a open 
  source Mobile Wallet written in um JavaScript in react native.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   And we're.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We're preparing it to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Handoff stewardship to the open Wallet 
  Foundation uh which if you're not familiar with uh is uh part of 
  the Linux Foundation uh it's a Linux Foundation project and its 
  goal is not to write specifications it leaves that to the other 
  species like ITF and w3c and ISO and so on.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But it's it's mandate is to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And uh and curate a set of open-source 
  libraries libraries and wallet implementations.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh also it it work it's working on a sort of 
  best practices and architecture and security sort of paper for 
  wallets but but in general it's much like many other Linux 
  Foundation projects.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Like like the Apache foundation and so on.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  It's it's goal is to uh sort of gather and 
  Steward uh open source either.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Full-on wallet implementations or component 
  libraries so we've uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We've been talking to the open world 
  foundation and are in the process of migrating the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh the learner credential wallet which is what 
  the DC wallet project is called over to open Wallet Foundation.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh so we'll we'll MIT will continue sort of uh 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Leading the software development uh as we can 
  we're fairly small uh development team.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But we're by moving it to the Linux Foundation 
  we're inviting broader participation hopefully the project will 
  be interesting to uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Other teams as well.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So if anybody has uh questions about the wall 
  Foundation uh please feel free to ask in chat or queue up I'm 
  probably not the best person to uh answer them but we can we can 
  get your we can forward them to the open world Foundation folks 
  and and.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh get your questions answered.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The stuff that we've been working on is uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah so basically cleaning house for uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  B batching up uh various like warnings and 
  errors and uh Tech debt uh in order to invite guests over for 
  learning credential wallet that's handing off the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh open source wallet.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  To the broader Community uh and aside from 
  that have been working on um.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Issuer Suites uh to um Consortium member 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We we've kicked off the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh quote unquote trust Registries project I 
  think quote unquote because trust Registries is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Kind of a a controversial and um not the best 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  In in our credential Community for the thing 
  that we're studying and what do we mean by trust registries.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So anybody dealing with credentials in the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Space but really in any space this this 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Covers any sort of credentials or anytime you 
  sign an object digitally.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Because what's a signature right you're you're 
  signing it essentially with a cryptographic key or with another a 
  baked identifier like it did at decentralized identifier.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And which which brings all sorts of useful 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But the major challenge with digital signature 
  is that they identifiers opaque when you're receiving a 
  credential you don't know who the key belong to that you signed 
  it with.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And so you must necessarily.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Have access to directories to lists of known 
  issuers so you can say okay this key belongs to this University 
  or this key belongs to uh this particular company or even an 
  individual person right we're in the area of Education we're 
  interested in.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Self issued credentials which presents its 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  It's kind of interesting challenges in terms 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  If we can get issuers.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Companies and organizations on a list what 
  about uh natural persons so we can we can talk about that what 
  some of the techniques there.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But anyway so.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Regardless of what you do with credentials 
  regardless of what technology stack.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  What sort of uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Specifications you're using.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  You're going to need to have access to these 
  directories to these lists of known issuers and that's what we 
  mean by trust registry.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh at at Baseline it is a list mapping opaque 
  identifiers to known entities of course that that's not all that 
  is that it can be.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Industries can have other Advanced um features 
  such as they can carry.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  About what kind of verification steps were 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Get the entity on that list uh meaning we 
  performed full uh personal kyc the know your customer.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Terminology from from Financial world.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We can say that okay this is our governance 
  framework and in order to get it on this list you have to meet 
  these criteria and this is these are the verification steps we're 
  going to take.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All of these things to raise the confidence 
  level of the verifier.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  When they're hopefully will be accepting your 
  credentials in the future.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Aside from a base level this is a list of 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  These Registries have uh lots of other useful 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  To the ecosystem and so uh credential engine 
  and uh digital credentials Consortium and many other many other 
  groups uh have have.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Joined into this uh 1 year uh research 
  projects uh or or practically research project where essentially 
  we're comparing.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Um half a dozen to a dozen.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Testing or in progress specifications.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Because all these groups working with uh 
  credentials Registries have have run into this problem.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Registries that means we need a data model and 
  sometimes we need a protocol or an API.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Switch to interface them with.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And that leaves implementers like us.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  With lots of questions okay I'm entering into 
  this world I have a wallet or I have a verifier or I have an 
  issuer which 1 of these trust registry specifications do we use.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And there's there's already uh a handful of 
  choices so 1 of the 1 of the goals of This research project is 
  we'll be uh simply comparing the specifications and trying to 
  make sense of them these are the trade-offs that they're making 
  uh this is a data model specification this is uh just an API 
  these are the affordances they have for uh how to specify 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  How terms of service how to get on that list 
  and how to get off that list and how to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All the information is outdated how do I 
  simply change.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The the information right all of these things 
  need to be.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thought through so the trustee project will be 
  comparing the specifications.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Selecting 1 1 or 2 and.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Standing up and implementation a a sample 
  registry that we can operate for a while uh use in our wallets 
  and issuers so that we can report uh knowledgeably that okay so 
  this is what it's like to operate 1 of these these These are the 
  downsides these are the the caveats.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So as a sort of service to the community.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So that's uh that's 1 of the projects but.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh does anybody else have uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The discussion uh things that they're working 
  on they want to share.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Hop on the list Naomi please go ahead.
Naomi: Hi there hi Dmitri um you said some interesting things and 
  uh we'd love to stay in touch with you not only about the trust 
  Registries I think that that was 1 thing um velocity had been 
  inquiring around earlier um in terms of certain lists that we've 
  seen that we were curious about how we could incorporate them 
  into the network so that's definitely and of course we have our 
  own tools so we definitely love to stay in touch with you on that 
  um another um thing that you mentioned of Interest was the wallet 
  the open wallet and um working with the Linux Foundation I'd love 
  to follow up with you on that as well velocity had a couple 
  components of its organization that we were interested in 
  connecting with Linux and maybe there is some dovetailing of 
  interests in terms of your work with um the wallet and uh Linux 
  foundation so um would love to follow up with you on those 2 
  points but in addition you know you started this um opening up 
  you know the announcements recent events and our CTO on.
Naomi:  race did.
Naomi: At 1 of the diff um events specifically on uh empowering 
  self Sovereign identity with trust credentials um I did post it 
  on LinkedIn it kicked off on Thursday um but what I'll do is I'll 
  put in the chat at least some of his recent writings and you know 
  everyone on this call may have ideas or thoughts or feedback on 
  that so I'll put um some of his recent writings and blogs in the 
  chat for anyone who kind of wants to read velocities latest 
  opinion um and then the other thing I'll put in the chat again is 
<ildiko_mazar> Thanks, Naomi.
Naomi: Um our Lear uh infrastructure requirements and this was 
  kind of an early Doc and it was retrofitted I think for the Lear 
  term being used in the US I think otherwise um it's almost like a 
  Manifesto of some of velocities core beliefs in terms of why it 
  works the way it works I just think that as a return this corner 
  and we're starting to invest in various products that educate us 
  on the notion of trust it might be a helpful document for 
  everyone to have and and and opine on so um I just stuck those 2 
  in the chat and um we have a lot going on in velocity Network 
  Foundation as well if anyone's interested in hearing more 
  specific updates um I I believe we'll be publishing like a a 
  quarterly or a 6-month kind of outward-facing newsletter on some 
  of the big changes in velocity in the next week or so that 
  hopefully everyone will take a look at and um be able to keep up 
  on things happening in velocity network with all our members.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you so much Naomi I really appreciate 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right well so while while people are uh 
  searching their minds and um.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Hopefully getting on the queue.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I want to introduce a topic that's always near 
  and dear to my heart which is self issued credentials.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh I think we've we've talked a bit about we 
  presented on.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  On this topic I think with Phil Long on the on 
  the subject on the work that we're doing with link credentials 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  In the future on an open source uh resume 
  author demo.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh but the reason I bring these up is that.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We've essentially got these 2 Worlds these 2 
  aspects of our of our credentials uh we have the in the classical 
  institutionally issued credentials.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Which what is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Does that mean it means.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But it's an organization our company doing it 
  and they're likely to be on a known issue or list somewhere.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh whether it's by the government by the local 
  Chamber of Commerce by uh some sort of uh third party.
<ildiko_mazar> :+1:
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Directory something like that right but then 
  we have this whole other world of natural persons who are not 
  likely to be on the list and in some jurisdictions like the 
  European Union are specifically not legally allowed to be kept on 
  list for privacy and and you know very very good legal reasons.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Still want people to be able to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Selfish credentials and and for various 
  reasons right so the first time the subject is brought up to 
  people unfamiliar with the verifiable credentials uh the question 
  immediately comes up.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Why right what what business value what 
  usefulness do we have in.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Issuing a claim of some sort.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The answer to that is always well just like in 
  the current non- digital credentials world right the the the 
  business value of it greatly depends on the person greatly 
  depends on their qualifications capabilities reputation in the 
  community and so on.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Ah I see we've got mahash on the Queue so I'll 
  pause here Mah go ahead.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But if you're talking you might be muted.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  He's showing us unmuted here though.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But we can't hear you otherwise.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Or at least I can't hear you it could be a 
  network partition.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh if somebody else can hear my hash let us 
  know in chat.
<mahesh_balan_-_pocketcred.com> I will rejoin
<pl/t3> Nope no voice from Mahesh
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Okay so my my hash is going to reconnect all 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So yeah so so sufficient credentials.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The the value of this credential uh greatly 
  depends and 1 of the things that we're we're claiming in in 
  starting this project with Phil Long and others of uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I'm making more widely available tools for 
  natural persons to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Easily create verifiable credentials 1 of the 
  things that that we're we're claiming and and are investigating 
  as part of this project is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Our thesis is that.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The value of self issue credentials can be 
  greatly increased.
<ildiko_mazar> I am one of those individuals who has genuine 
  interest in self-issued credentials as a lifelong non-formal 
  learner couldn't expect an Agent to formally/informally issue 
  credentials proving one's knowledge, skills and competences.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  With 2 things.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  1 Is evidence.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Let's say this is a uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Stuff is should claim of skills or uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Or a an employment history item right the 
  things that make up potentially make up a resume.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The veracity and the value of that can be 
  greatly increased with just adding to the credential.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I'll link to uh a video where you 
  demonstrating that skill a link to uh an external non digitally 
  science certification a uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  A code repository right literally evidence of 
  the claim that you're making and then the second thing that that 
  that we think greatly increases the value of the claim is of 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Recommendations endorsements uh comments on 
  the claimed by other people and and in the verify the credential 
  world we have these general purpose mechanisms uh that that we're 
  hoping to see wider use so 1 of the things that we're we're 
  trying to demonstrate is the user interface and the data model.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  On 1 approach and how this can be done uh by 
  Sima hash has um.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh rejoined us so go ahead Mash.
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com: Can you can you hear me let me.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yes we can hear you go ahead yeah.
<ildiko_mazar> Using common standards to convert what would 
  normally be on a single-language un-structured CV, can this way 
  become a multi-lingual, machine readable verifiable cradential.
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com: All right sorry um um I just um I 
  think I I missed the there was probably uh presentation on ASU 
  pocket and the tln network maybe 2 weeks back uh and uh I was 
  wondering if it's possible for you or somebody else uh who was 
  there to give a quick summary of uh where the progress is I'm 
  very interested in that particular project uh it's right uh right 
  in my backyard thank you.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you Mahesh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Who who wants to give a summary of uh the ASU 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We should have a recording uh up in the 
<ildiko_mazar> @Mahes, we are sill to deliver the Pocket 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Ah okay so so uh mentioned so the ASU pocket 
  presentation uh was scheduled for previously but had to be moved 
  uh due to speaker.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So that's coming up so you haven't missed 
  anything yet.
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com: All right great thank you so much 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Any other questions any questions about the 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Notion of self-assured credentials on.
<ildiko_mazar> The recording of the LER session can be found at: 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh have any of you either implemented a wallet 
  or have used the wallet that has included tools to create self 
  issued credentials you'll go ahead.
<pl/t3> Ildiiko self-issue credentials are simiilarly 'sealed' 
  cryptographically  when they are created.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks so the account and yeah it's a it's a 
  tough technological problem how do you electronically sign how do 
  you seal these self issued credentials again not that it's 
  difficult to sign.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh to to create a signature it it's 1 function 
  call right.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Signing part is Trivial technologically what's 
  not trivial what what I suspect is referring to and and what 1 of 
  the things that uh we're investigating with Phil long is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Once it's signed how do you get the key or the 
  identifier in a directory somewhere how do you.
<ildiko_mazar> EDCs must be signed by an eIDAS compliant 
  electronic seal (can't be sealed by an individual's electronic 
  signature). It's a trust issue.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  How do you hook into the known issue or 
Dmitri Zagidulin:   How do you.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  To identify the person.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And again in the case of uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Classic universities companies uh other 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah so as a Zelda mentions in um in chat in 
  the European Union model.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh credentials must be signed by an EIT 
  compliant electronic seal which means.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  What does that mean it means that the issuer 
  has to be on a registry on a list this year has had to have gone 
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Uh organ.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Organizational identity verification.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So again and since those uh identity 
  verifications are for organizations and and cannot be uh sort of 
  by legislation uh with natural persons what do we do about 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That there's let's talk about what what the 
  options are and then uh some guesses on what the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Well some of the solutions could be alright 
<ildiko_mazar> And how can third party viewers trust the content 
  of credentials if they contain claims about the issuers 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The the trivial option is of course.
<nate_otto> My project ORCA enables self-claiming of credentials 
  within the governance rules of a community, but the community 
  (currently using did:web) is the issuer and signer. I haven't yet 
  seen any wallets that are really enabling self-issuing and 
  signing with a key associated with the same ID (e.g. did:key) 
  that they use to receive credentials. I'm sure we'll see some 
  self-issuing features in wallets eventually.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah so as I mentioned in chat uh how can 
  third-party viewers trust the contents of the credentials if they 
  are self claimed if their claims about the issues themselves.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah that's that's the key question how do we 
  get the signature on a directory somewhere or at least how do we 
  identify who the signer was and then how does the verifier trust 
  the claims.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And there's a couple of options uh in terms of 
  uh increasing Trust.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  1 Is again evidence.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  You don't just like in the non-credentialed.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   You don't.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Don't take people's uh word just at face value 
  you also asked to provide evidence evidence of the skill evidence 
  of the project completion of the output.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And in addition.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We have these well-known mechanisms of letters 
  of recommendation letters of endorsement uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We have the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh references available upon request at the 
  end of a resume which realistically means that somebody in HR is 
  going to call up your uh previous manager previous teammate and 
  and and just try to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Confirm what you claimed again the the reason 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Self issued claims are valuable uh is really 
  easy to demonstrate a resume is nothing but a collection of 
  self-assured claims.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Is valuable absolutely that that is how so 
  much of our employment world.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh rests on so what we're what we're sort of 
  competing against what we're what we're racing against is can we 
  provide in these digital signatures in these digital credentials 
  can we provide equivalent or hopefully more value than a regular 
  paper resume uh go ahead elico you're on the queue.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah excellent point thank you for bringing 
  that up uh thank you for bringing that let's talk about that so.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  As as a brief side note about is it better 
  than a paper resume uh 1 of my favorite essays uh from uh I think 
  early 2000s Was Won by uh Joel spolsky who is incidentally um the 
  founder of the company that created stack Overflow as well as 
  Trello and and a couple other things uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Great guy wrote a lot about uh issue tracking 
  and uh managing Developers.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   1 Of the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  See what we said.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Is in developing an issue tracker you're not 
  just competing against jira or Microsoft or other people that are 
  providing the software you're competing against.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  An open notepad file.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  You're competing against uh just a simple file 
  in a text editor I always think about that uh in in the area of 
  credentials especially when employment and ress I always think 
  just like when creating a software are you better than.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Open text file in terms of jotting down notes 
  Here Again the question is can we be better than a paper resume 
  and as Elder Co points out.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The 1 of the low-hanging fruit 1 of the sort 
  of holy Grails of this whole field is not just the digital 
  signature the value of verifiable credentials whether 
  institutionally issued or self issued is not just a signature 
  it's not just the reputation that the issuer brings to the table 
  it's the fact that it is structured data what do we mean by that 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh if you look at the world of data uh as a 
  developer there's essentially only 2 kinds of data.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Raw text or unstructured text.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   This is what you.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Get when I don't know you write an email or 
  you scan in an ebook or you scan in a resume right you're 
  applying to a job portal and it's like.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Upload your resume in word or PDF format there 
  that's on structured data it's uh long paragraph of text meant to 
  to be for human consumption.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But what does an analytical system.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  What does machine readable code.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  What can go do with that and of course now 
  these days we have large language models we have uh AIS with with 
  all of their benefits and um and drawbacks and and part of the 
  reason why there is such hype about AI is that they let us.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Text free form text.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Scanned in resume into hopefully.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  This is still being demonstrated a number of 
  experiments the hope is that we can turn that unstructured text 
  into structured data what do we mean by that.
<ildiko_mazar> Very-very true. And while I fear that we won't see 
  many self-claimed degrees floating around :-), in today's world 
  where so much learning is happening non-formally, documenting 
  skills in ANY way, has great advantages (without legally binding 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We mean machine readable records we mean uh 
  fields that are defined uh we we're all familiar with these 
  records the these are.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh anytime you fill out a form or or use a 
  spreadsheet uh although form is slightly better example than a 
  spreadsheet right uh this is where columns and fields are defined 
  the data structure is known and the receiver knows what to do 
  with it it knows that this field is a name this field is um the 
  name of the place that you worked and this field is how long you 
  worked there that sort of thing.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  In general 1 of the 1 of the main value 
  propositions of verifiable credentials is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Usually the issuer or the implementer of the 
  software that was used to to create this thing.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Did the the cognitive work and the user 
  interface the hard ux work of.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Turning this record into.
<pl/t3> person identity - notarization is the personal identity 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Something that just meant for for human ball 
  into structured data which means that it's actionable hopefully 
  if you have the right system it's actionable uh now let's see 
  there's some good good comments in chat um.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Sounds very true.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We won't see many self-claimed degrees.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Much learning is happening non formerly yeah 
  absolutely absolutely.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh Phyllis pointing out that uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  In in terms of uh personal identity in terms 
  this is the issue that we're talking about earlier.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  How do we know who the credential is from 1 of 
  the very powerful Tools in this uh toolkit is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh infrastructure right like we're all 
  hopefully familiar with no Republic uh which is if you think 
  about it an interface between the formal world of government and 
  bureaucracy and the messy human.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  It's no no much like LM is a mechanism to turn 
  on structure text into hopefully structured in a way notaries are 
  a mechanism.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Or at least partially.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Selfish should claims into witnessed and 
  verified claims and giving them uh a set of structure and 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Now let's see uh there's also an excellent 
  comment from Nate.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That I think I may have missed as the 
  transcriber was scrolling the documents ah Nate was talking about 
  project Orca enabling self claiming of credentials within the 
  government's rule of a community.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh I haven't seen any wallets ah scrolled off 
  uh Nate uh please feel free to hop on the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  On the Queue we'd love to hear about uh your 
  project and and it's a a really good point that uh there is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  It's not a binary ahnaf between uh traditional 
  institutions and and people we have many other nodes in the 
  middle such as a a given Community whether it's a uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  AA club and Association uh and so on I'm sure 
  you can explain it better.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But it's an excellent point.
Nate Otto:  Um so Orca is an open source piece of software that 
  aims to be a badge platform for communities of practice whatever 
  that community of practice is it could be uh sports team who 
  primarily wants to have people show up to the pickup practices um 
  or it could be a department of a university you know engaging in 
  formal education and they can set up their achievements with 
  whatever governance rule they like in terms of what it takes to 
  earn them um and self claiming is is available so it's 
  interesting to see the presence of many possible communities 
  whether they're these tiny little things that may fly as spin up 
  for a very small purpose or storied institutions that um last for 
  hundreds of years.
Nate Otto:  Um as intermediaries in the space that exists for the 
  purpose of enabling people to self claim um the skills that they 
  have and then get peer validation and endorsement from the other 
  people in the community um it's 1 possible approach here I think 
  it's also compatible with sort of pure self claiming where maybe 
  you have some key material in a wallet somewhere and you're 
  creating credentials signed by and to the same uh credential 
  subject I haven't seen a whole lot of that happening yet although 
  I'm sure that um we will as there are destinations for.
Nate Otto:  To actually go and be turned back into real insights 
  and real um.
Nate Otto:  Uh actionable you know intelligence um like you said.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you so much Nate yeah these are really 
  excellent point uh from from Milo and Nate uh it'll go point that 
  uh in addition to the difficulty of uh.
<naomi> hi, I struggle with the level of effort required for 
  self-reported or peer-attested credentials given that AI can make 
  us less reliant on structured data. That said, love the idea of 
  community feedback being mobile! We do have to be better than a 
  piece of paper.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Identity verification don't forget about the 
  value proposition of structured data uh even even if self issued 
  and then Nate bringing up several excellent points such as.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  1 There's communities and and groups and all 
  sorts of other issuers that could be potentially uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Business value both of reputationally and and 
  organizationally so so that's an excellent point and then uh as 
  Nate mentioned um.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We still shouldn't forget about individual 
  people right we've got these wallets and what do wallets do they 
  manage cryptographic Keys which means we have.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Much of the infrastructure for people to 
  manage their own keys.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But that last mile that the difficulties of 
  course had to identify them how do we get them on a registry that 
  Maps a key to a person uh.
<pl/t3> I think those of us interested in self-issued credentials 
  are trying to align existing formal organizational practices that 
  in HE speak are often captured under the practices of 
  accreditation. How do we enable individuals to have  forms of 
  third-party assessment of the claims.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  1 1 Of the possible solutions was already 
  mentioned by Phil Long and that is notaries right you you can use 
  uh notaries as an active as a trust anchor uh where notaries can 
  issue a notarization credential that says okay I checked this 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And this key uh allegedly belongs to Demetrius 
  aadan right so that's that's 1 option and then.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh the other option that I uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So that is my personal suspicion that may play 
  a role is of course address books.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Meaning we all carry in all of our phones.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Essentially I trust.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Right that we use to filter incoming phone 
  calls that we this this person calling ah okay it's uh it's 
  Grandma it's my car dealership whatever right.
<ildiko_mazar> How would this look like in a digitally signed 
  credential? The self-signed cred is re-signed by the notary 
  (envelope in envelope style)?
Dmitri Zagidulin:  They're identify they're opaque identifier the 
  phone number is in my registry which is the address book right 
  but the nice thing about uh even today's uh phone address books 
  is that they have a bunch of fields emails uh address phone 
  number and they all have we don't really use them it's not really 
  used much but the capabilities there they all have fields to 
  record identifiers and keys and so I definitely want to see more 
  done with that but we've got uh more interesting conversation in 
<pl/t3> Personal recommendation graphs can become  the equivalent 
  of address books
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Naomi mentioned level of effort.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Right uh level of effort required for 
  self-reported or peer tested credentials.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh an excellent point pill Phil mentions that 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Those of us interested in South Asia 
  credentials are trying to um align existing formal organizational 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And then uh elico.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  How would this look how would this look like 
  in a digitally signed credential the self-signed credential plus 
  the notary uh excellent question and and we hope uh Phil and I 
  hope to present on that in the future and I see.
<mahesh_balan_-_pocketcred.com> What about x509 certificate 
  extensions feature - I heard something about it in the last IIW
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh Phil Miku go ahead so.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Mahesh - sure, so, 509x is just another 
  signature / 'sealing' technology, definitely usable for 
PL/T3: Yeah this is very helpful conversation actually for for 
  those of us um uh like Nate and ourselves and others that are 
  looking at how we try to transpose what institutions and 
  corporate um in nonprofit art work corporate um mechanisms of 
  impose of of uh either professional development or educational uh 
  acquisition of Knowledge and Skills are have been doing for for 
  centuries frankly um to into a world which is more unstructured 
  and uh and less uh opaque less transparent I should say um and 1 
  of the things I think that we're continuing to harp on that is 
  trying to bridge this Gap Demetri already mentioned and that is 
  the presidents of third-party evidence and assessments that an 
  individual can offer in in support of the claim that they're in 
  that they're self asserting um so that there is uh there.
PL/T3:  opportunity for.
PL/T3: Entities whether they are um testing center or a in 
  another individual with reputational value or other sorts of um 
  of alignments that are more associated with uh formally 
  structured issued credentials from an entity and organization 
  that has at least in the higher education sense the Notions of 
  accreditation that sort of check on the practices that are being 
  used by which the acquisition is taking place to see if they 
  conform to um things that are well known to um increase the 
  probability that the acquisition claims is actually uh 1 that the 
  person um is capable of to demonstrating in another in another 
  context so I think that's where the the the issues are and any of 
  us that are interested in this could the more sharing we do about 
  possible Connections in this regard will help all of us and the 
  last 1 that Dmitri mentioned was um the the context of the.
PL/T3:  your address.
<nate_otto> How quickly could a verifier consume all of these 
  forms of evidence? How much time will a reviewer take with each 
  of individual's self-issued claims. Or is the relevant user 
  imagined to be in the process of reviewing 300 resumes and unable 
  to spend more than a minute on each one?
<dmitri_zagidulin> EXCELLENT question, Nate
PL/T3: And in effect we've been talking about the idea of a 
  personal recommendation graphs that 1 might be able to uh develop 
  that are associated with particular dimensions of 1's types of 
  skills that 1 that that 1 is claiming so that there is the this 
  the start of at least of a collection that um facilitates a third 
  another independent third parties opportunity to judge that 
  self-claimed um with a set of things um that is more than just a 
  random individual picked so thanks.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks Phil uh Nate brings up another 
  excellent question chat how quickly could a verify consume all of 
  these uh forms of evidence meaning.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The the the the promise of digital credentials 
  is a sort of instantaneous uh verification process except it's 
  not right so this is this is 1 of the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  1 Of the fundamental insights uh we're all 
  starting to have as a community in in implementing these 
  credentials is that.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We we don't want to oversell it as an instant 
  uh verification human judgment still has to get involved even if 
  it is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Upfront human judgment on which trust 
  Registries do we pick so that if an ident if a signature from 
  that uh entity shows up then we know we can trust it but in so 
  many cases and as nay points out especially in uh self issue 
  credentials and evidence.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We're still going to need human judgment which 
  is incidentally uh why it's super important to make sure that 
  your issuing and verify your protocols.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Deeply asynchronous that there can be.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Minutes and hours and days and weeks between a 
  submission for verification and a response back right we need to 
  make sure to build into our protocols uh this essentially humans 
  being involved.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Okay so we've got uh almost nearing time.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And and we want to encourage uh everyone at 
  the end of the call to uh re to reach out to us if you have a 
  topic you want to speak on.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Right so we're uh as always we're looking for 
  uh presenters and speakers on these weekly calls.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh so if you.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   If you have a.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Project you want to showcase a topic you want 
  to present on uh please um.
<dmitri_zagidulin> dzagidulin@gmail.com
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh um email ildico email myself uh email 
  Simone uh we'll drop some uh emails in the chat here here's mine 
  and chair hers and so on uh please reach out to us.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Okay but.
<pl/t3> It might be useful  to dig a little deeper into what 
  attributes people associate with a well regarded 'brand' which 
  institutionally issued credentials develop and are used as a 
  proxy supporting trust in the assertions claimed.
<ildiko_mazar> ildiko.mazar@nttdata.com
Dmitri Zagidulin:  In the in the 10 minutes or so that's left I I 
  want to make sure uh we highlight the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  2 Things 1 is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Well I I I want to talk about.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Again the value and the difficulty of 
  structured versus unstructured data and fill in chat points out 
  might be useful to dig deeper into what attributes people 
  associate with well regarded brand.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh that are used as proxy supporting trust in 
  the assertions claimed yes absolutely I think that's that 
  investigation is crucial to the whole field of verifiable 
  credentials oh yeah and the other thing that I wanted to briefly 
  address is just to answer all the questions uh what does.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  A notary or an endorser look like uh does a 
  notary just uh add a signature to the existing uh credential or 
  what uh and yes so adding a signature is always a solution but 
  it's never the best solution uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  There fortunately verify the credentials have 
  other mechanisms uh that are sort of the equivalent of uh the 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I always find it helpful to think about uh 
  real world processes on um.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And then and then mimic them in credential uh 
  scum orphism so to speak right think about what the procedure for 
  a notary is uh I have a document.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Know uh self attestation about something and 
  then I attached I include another separate document from the 
  notary that says I reviewed this and and my notary number is this 
  and here's my sign uh I have reviewed the attached right so even 
  in the real world we have this notion of attachments and 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We say things like the above the attached 
  document and so on uh and so similar.
<ildiko_mazar> I'd also like to add to Phil's observation: at 
  what level of data-richness we start seeing digital credentials 
  as having high quality? We discuss this a lot in the ELM Team.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Techniques can be used in the credential World 
  by the notion of um.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Links by the cryptographically secured or not 
  uh attachments embedding and so on uh but that sounds like a 
  great topic uh in general.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  For another presentation uh but super quick.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  It turns out that.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That that turning.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Unstructured text even if it is a text in 
  somebody's mind uh into structured machine actionable is actually 
  really hard what do I mean by that.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Think about developing a uh free form tool to 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Self issued verifiable credentials which which 
  is exactly what we're working on with Phil the the link claims 
  author and the resume author.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Think about if you're managing a development 
  team or you're a developer and you're sitting down and your task 
  is uh come up with.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  John purpose tool or somebody can come and 
  produce any kind of credential or but not just any kind of 
  credential let's narrow it down let's say it's a skill assertion.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  This this tool is going to produce scale 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The the trivial sort of solution is okay you 
  have a form uh and it's like your name name of the skill the 
  description of the skill what steps did you did you have to take 
  to to get it do you have any sort of supporting evidence right so 
  that's the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Sort of the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Line you have these uh couple of fields but 
  they're mostly unstructured because most of the value is still in 
  the human readable text inside name of the scale.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And and description of the skill.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Why is the name of the scale unstructured uh 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  People can refer to the same skill in in 
  different languages right uh our our Dream as as developers as 
  bureaucrats as as uh stewards of the ecosystem is always wouldn't 
  it be great to link this skill to an existing skill.
<nate_otto> "our dream as bureaucrats" (the name of my new album)
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Like say that the government has okay this is 
  a directory of skills that we recognize.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  A dream is bureaucrats as the name of a new 
  album it would be an excellent album um.
<ildiko_mazar> 1. reference skills from a published framework
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That that's 1 of The Avenues to for us to 
  investigate can we tie the skills or any sort of self assertions 
  into published Frameworks uh and the answer is well trivially yes 
<ildiko_mazar> @Nate :-D :-D
Dmitri Zagidulin:  How to do it with the least friction and the 
  least confusion on part of the user is an interesting topic that 
  is worth a lot of Investigation.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right but we are nearing time uh yeah 
  excellent points in chat uh elico reference skills from published 
  framework associate volume to the learning show proof of skill 
  acquisition including detailed description of the type Mo motive 
  assessment yeah.
<naomi> Thank you for the call! -- informative.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Anyway so my my whole point was that.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The main value proposition is also turns out 
  to be 1 of the hardest things uh to do in this field which is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  How do you make the tax machine actionable in 
  structured hopefully you're tying it into Frameworks uh but 
  there's not that many good Frameworks so we're all sort of on the 
  lookout of uh.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Frameworks to use and then how to present that 
  workflow to the user do we.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Present a giant pulldown drop-down list.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That says okay uh here's the 500 skills 
  recognized by the state of Minnesota Select 1 right do do we do 
  that or can we do something better.
<pl/t3> In the self-issued credential world, 3rd party testing 
  centers may  emerge as of comparable value to institutional 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right any other uh last minute questions.
<ildiko_mazar> Good point, Dmitri.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Phil mentioned talks about the role of 
  third-party testing centers May merge.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Comparable value to institutional issuers yeah 
  uh great great question.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh Phil do you have uh anything else uh to say 
  I think.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  On the Queue from previous.
<ildiko_mazar> A good taxonomy should definitely be more 
  tree-like than a giant 'drop-down' list, in my opinion.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Ildiko - definitely
PL/T3: No I'm not not specifically I just think I I think what 
  we're all struggling with is the ability to make this connection 
  and do so in a way that doesn't impose on the individual who is 
  making the self-assured claim the expectation of the knowledge 
  and uh and expertise that affect assessment organizations and 
  others that have been doing this for such a long period of time 
  have developed uh in fits and starts over over tens of years we 
  have to figure out a way that there's something that's good 
  enough to convey the brand value recognition that a lot of people 
  currently use who aren't even paying attention to all the things 
  underneath the surface but just assuming them.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right uh we are nearing the top of the 
  hour we should wrap up I think the moral of the story here is 
  that next time somebody wakes you up at 4 a.m. in the morning and 
  says quick.
<ildiko_mazar> It was a great call, thank you, Dmitri.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  What's the value proposition what are the 
  difficult things of self issue credentials then you'll be able to 
  answer them you can say.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  What are the hard parts.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh unstructured thoughts into structured ones 
  uh establishing trust in the self issuer uh presenting evidence 
  and presenting endorsements and pulling all of that together in 
<mahesh_balan_-_pocketcred.com> Thank you for the thoughtful 
  discussion team VC-EDU
Dmitri Zagidulin:  User-friendly way and if you can say all of 
  that at 4 in the morning uh we we salute you.
<ildiko_mazar> :)
Dmitri Zagidulin:  See you all hopefully uh the next week or 
  since uh.
<pl/t3> coctail party opening lines ;-)
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh see you all 1 of these next weeks thank you 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Everyone uh as always we really appreciate the 
  good conversation and questions.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And uh yeah talk to y'all later.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And and reach out to us if you have topics to 
  present on.

Received on Thursday, 4 July 2024 19:15:06 UTC