[MINUTES] W3C CCG Credentials CG Call - 2024-07-02

Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:


A video recording is also available at:


W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2024-07-02

  Mike Prorock, Kimberly Linson, Harrison Tang
  Our Robot Overlords
  Harrison Tang, Nouran Soliman, Gerald Glickman, Benjamin Young, 
  Virginia Balseiro, Erica Connell, GregB, Jennie M, Gregory 
  Natran, Vanessa, Kaliya Young, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) 
  (OpenLinkSw.com), Kimberly Linson, Rashmi Siravara, David Karger, 
  Hiroyuki Sano, Japan, David Chadwick, Sarven Capadisli, Joe 
  Andrieu, Manu Sporny, Dmitri Zagidulin, Nate Otto, Alex H, PL/T3

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Harrison_Tang: Welcome everyone uh to this week's w3c shishi G 
  meeting so this week we're excited uh to have the author of the 
  paper uh Nemo paper neuron from MIT here to actually talk about 
  her paper so the paper mitigating barriers to public social 
  interactions with uh neuromuscul uh actually gather quite a bit 
  of conversations about a month ago so there was uh quite a bit of 
  uh uh emails uh on 2 or 3 email threats so very excited uh to 
  actually have the opportunity uh to invite her to talk about her 
  paper and then the hopefully uh have further discussions uh 
  around the topic of me me me.
Harrison_Tang: Before we start just want to quickly.
Harrison_Tang: Uh do a quick reminder on the code of ethics and 
  professional conduct just want to make sure that we continue to 
  have respectful uh and constructive conversations.
Harrison_Tang: A quick note on the intellectual property anyone 
  can participate in these calls however all successive 
  contributions to any ccg work items must be the member of the ccg 
  with full IPR agreement signed so if you have any questions in 
  regards to getting a w3c account or the w3c community contributor 
  license agreement please feel free to reach out to any of the 
Harrison_Tang: Uh these meetings are being automatically recorded 
  and transcribed uh so we will publish the transcription the audio 
  and video recording in the next uh 1 or 2 days.
Harrison_Tang: We use GG chat to cue the speaker so if you have 
  any questions just type in Q Plus to add yourself to the queue 
  for a q minus to remove uh you can type in Q question mark to see 
  who is in the queue and that will be moderating the queue.
Harrison_Tang: All right uh this is time for the introductions 
  and reintroductions so if you are new to the community or you.
Harrison_Tang: Being active and want to re-engage uh feel free to 
  just uh unmute and uh introduce yourself.
David_Karger: Hi there I'm David Karger since you've invited um 
  I'm Nouran's uh advisor and I'm joining the call because I'm very 
  interested in marigny and uh looking forward to this 
Harrison_Tang: Welcome welcome David.
Harrison_Tang: Anyone else and you want to leave you I'll ask you 
  to introduce yourself later before your presentation.
Harrison_Tang: Anyone else for the introductions were 
Harrison_Tang: All right uh announcements and reminders any new 
  announcements in regards to events or different papers.
Kaliya Young:  Hey we have um the usual internet identity 
  Workshop coming up.
Kaliya Young:  Early bird super early bird registration is open 
  right now um it's October 29th to 31st and yes we will have a 
  Halloween party on the last day.
Kaliya Young:  And we have the did unconference Africa happening 
  in South Africa.
Kaliya Young:  September 25 to 27 so if you have colleagues uh 
  based on the continent and particularly in southern African 
  countries please let them know about the event.
Kaliya Young:  I will links in to both in the chat.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you thanks Clea.
Kaliya Young: https://didunconf.africa/
Kaliya Young: https://internetidentityworkshop.com/
Manu Sporny:  There uh sorry uh hi um I've updated the uh weekly 
  digest that goes out to the mailing list to include uh all the 
  work items that the verifiable credential working group is 
  working on um it is a very long list of specifications at this 
  point um 1 2 3 I mean it's just yeah it's ridiculous how long the 
  list is but um you should see updates going out I'll put the link 
  um into RC uh example update.
<manu_sporny> Example update from VCWG: 
Manu Sporny:  Probably see WG um there's a lot of activity going 
  on right now but I think the general announcement is we are 
  closing in on closing out some of the last issues across all 
  these different specifications um and that's great news um it 
  means that we're pretty much done um I won't say we're done 
  that's going to take a couple of more months but when it comes to 
  like changes to the specification the issues are not coming in at 
  the same rapid clip they were you know a year ago uh we've been 
  able to address just about everybody's input um so it's just a 
  heads up to the group like if you were hoping to get some 
  comments in before we finalized uh version 2 0 uh you should 
  definitely get those comments in now um because we're uh you know 
  doors closing and all that kind of stuff um we still do need 
  multiple interoperable implementations for.
Manu Sporny:   All of.
Manu Sporny:   But that.
Manu Sporny:  It's probably what the group's going to very very 
  rapidly shift Focus to and the second we've got multiple you know 
  independent implementations um everyone should expect the group 
  to just start shipping them um as a final uh Global standards uh 
  that's it.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you Manu.
Harrison_Tang: Any other uh announced announcements we're going 
Harrison_Tang: Any updates on the work items.
<manu_sporny> There are 13 specifications being moved through the 
  standardization process at W3C, currently!
Harrison_Tang: By a quick note on the work item so uh we will 
  start asking the people to provide work items updates starting in 
  August so so I think uh world and I kind of mentioned that uh 
  about a month ago but just want to a quick uh reminder and uh 
  we'll has a reach out to different people in regards to a 
  different work items uh so so that if uh.
Harrison_Tang: If the the leaders of those work item and 
  initiatives are present uh they can provide an update if not uh 
  if other people have uh know what's going on in those work items 
  it would be good uh for them to kind of give a quick overview of 
  what's going on in those work item and progress.
Harrison_Tang: Um any last calls for the work item updates 
  announcements or introductions.
Harrison_Tang: All right uh let's get to the main agenda so as 
  mentioned uh.
Harrison_Tang: A month ago uh you know we had 2 3 Threads around 
  uh this concept of Marin neimy and uh a quick uh note marinin is 
  means like a part of a hole so kind of like an engine is uh 
  marinate of a car for example and by the way I did look it up in 
  the dictionary otherwise I wouldn't have know this so uh.
Harrison_Tang: It is a pretty cool concept and uh uh meronem 
  actually kind of allows right people in the public space to 
  selectively uh disclose only relevant and verify aspects of their 
  identity uh to uh carry out public discourse so uh we we had a 
  great conversation around that and we're very fortunate to 
  actually have the author of the paper um New Orleans from MIT uh 
  to actually talk about uh her work so you are the force yours if 
  you don't mind kind of introduce yourself a little bit and then 
Harrison_Tang: You know talk about your paper and uh we're very 
  excited to have you here.
Nouran_Soliman: Oh of course thank you Harrison so my name is 
Nouran_Soliman: I'm a PhD student at MIT um I work with David 
  Karger who is also here in the call um and.
Nouran_Soliman: Um I got distracted by the.
Nouran_Soliman: Notifications I thought the voice is not clear um 
  okay um yeah so I work with David on um problems around um.
Nouran_Soliman: Online spaces and how to make them more safer and 
  more trustworthy.
Nouran_Soliman: Um and um yeah uh so generally I focus on online 
  trust and um safety um and today I would like to talk about uh 
  this project around me which I'm we managed to publish in um Chi 
  which is a human computer interaction conference um this year so 
  uh I'm going to share my screen so I'm going to turn off my video 
  and I'll start sharing my screen.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you thank you and you are sorry to interrupt 
  Joe do you have any comments or questions.
Joe Andrieu:  I do not that was a user error sorry.
Harrison_Tang: No problem no problem thank you.
Joe Andrieu:  I don't know I lower it.
Nouran_Soliman: So can everybody see my screen.
<kaliya_identity_woman_> Just so you know the voice iant cominf 
  throgh on the app on the phone.
Nouran_Soliman: Okay sounds good uh okay so um the the work I I 
  want to uh talk about today is called mitigating barriers to 
  public social interaction with miranis communication.
Nouran_Soliman: Um so um basically in this uh talk I'm gonna uh 
  present Mighty which is a novel design Paradigm we designed based 
  on our formative study and then I will talk about the evaluation 
  of this uh in a system that we built named literature uh to 
  incorporate the mirror nity framework.
Nouran_Soliman: So to start um if if we look at online public 
  spaces we we will see like how we transformed uh public 
  engagement by bringing people together uh in these cases where 
  they can discuss an exchanged personalized information based on 
  their specific needs and experiences.
Nouran_Soliman:  so you.
Nouran_Soliman: Like so many different platforms like credit um 
  Facebook um Goodreads and so on and so forth.
Nouran_Soliman: However there are a lot of social barriers that 
  arise in these online communities um and and the are these these 
  barriers are usually around self-image um like fearing to look 
  stupid or um or burdening others or uh also uh so part of it is 
  about self-image and the other part is about consumption of your 
  Social Capital like as I said mention burdening others or uh 
  having to reciprocate the obligation back and so on and so forth 
  which usually discourages a lot of people from engagement despite 
  the perceived benefits Behind These interactions.
Nouran_Soliman: Um and you for example you might have seen like 
  similar experiences uh in online spaces around.
Nouran_Soliman: Um academic Twitter where like uh people post 
  things um asking for papers or um kind of sharing uh their papers 
  and so on and so forth.
Nouran_Soliman: So we were interested to look at Academia 
  specifically in this project and um because of its interesting 
  structure so if you take a closer look on Academia.
Nouran_Soliman: It's very hierarchical and it has a lot of 
  rampant Notions of status and Prestige coming from specific 
  institutions um which kind of creates uh a lot of.
Nouran_Soliman: Potent like potential professional risks and 
  competition in that are reflected in these online spaces.
Nouran_Soliman: And although these Dynamics are uh prominent and 
  in Academia it there is a growing number of academics that are 
  drawn to social networking uh platforms like academic Twitter for 
  example uh for the visibility this offers uh to the research uh 
  as well as the the authors so.
Nouran_Soliman: We see a lot of people like tweeting uh about 
  their papers um.
Nouran_Soliman: And so on and so forth uh and and previous work 
  has also shown that there is uh increased visibility and uh also 
  uh like when using these uh platforms and also it helps uh 
  researchers kind of.
Nouran_Soliman: Construct uh a professional identity online.
Nouran_Soliman: But despite these benefits uh of of the public 
  scholarly engagement similar barriers arise so for example Rising 
  Juniors often fear the impact of their public engagement on their 
  career progression due to like um.
Nouran_Soliman: The high stakes uh.
Nouran_Soliman: The high sticks that are attributed with such 
  engagement because it's career related and it's going to reflect 
  on them forever so in in the professional Community which usually 
  makes them deter from engagement and therefore these communities 
  become dominated by senior voices and also um becomes imbalanced 
  in terms of like gender or other minority groups.
Nouran_Soliman: So in this work we particularly focus on online 
  communities for academics as our test bed but the first question 
  we looked into is in a general context what are the previous 
  solutions for addressing these social barriers.
Nouran_Soliman: So 1 obvious solution is anonymity um so 
  anonymizing 1's identity introduces social inhibition that helps 
  users overcome a lot of these social pressures online however it 
  still motivates toxic behaviors um and um it also de which which 
  as a result the motivates engagement um and also obscures a lot 
  of the social context around the interaction.
Nouran_Soliman: There is another solution um which is student 
  limiting so you use a persistent synonym to engage uh such as 
  spaces like credit um although this kind of provides a degree of 
  privacy and a sense of accountability um.
Nouran_Soliman: There's still a problem where it's very hard to 
  skip negative reputations or hide information from previous 
  interactions which basically leads to self-censoring and or like 
  in some occasions the creation of throwaway accounts where people 
  like use the account for 1 for a 1 time thing and then they just 
  like throw throw it away.
Nouran_Soliman: So the question we were asking is how do we 
  balance between The credibility and context of full identity 
  disclosure and the privacy and protection of anonymity and this 
  is where Mirren nity comes.
Nouran_Soliman: So basically uh the fundamental idea behind 
  marigny here is that users can reveal specific aspects about who 
  they are with every interaction.
Nouran_Soliman: Um and it comes from um marrow um which in Greek 
  means partial and Nim is named so it's kind of partial anonymity.
Nouran_Soliman: So for example if I am publicly asking the 
  academic Community about paper recommendations let's say on on a 
  space like Twitter and I'm concerned about doing this from my 
  personal account with my name attached so.
Nouran_Soliman: The idea there is that okay I can do this by 
  hiding my identity but instead of saying that I'm an anonymous 
  poster I can reveal some information about myself so for example 
  my seniority level saying that I'm a junior researcher for 
  example or my affiliation.
Nouran_Soliman: Saying that I have worked before or still 
Nouran_Soliman: University uh or maybe a combination of all of 
  those or my um network of co-authors uh or other uh signals um in 
  my background so this kind of gives the audience a better sense 
  of the poster is identity making the interaction feel more 
  realistic and less random and and while providing uh context 
  around the interaction.
Nouran_Soliman: So uh the first step we did is we ran a formative 
  study with 20 Scholars uh in order to better understand the 
  nature and challenges of online scholarly Communication in 
  general and also in help seeking context such as asking for or 
  providing research paper recommendations.
Nouran_Soliman: And uh participants confirmed uh their perception 
  uh of these professional interactions as high stakes.
Nouran_Soliman: A lot of the time stops them uh from engaging 
  with the community and asking for help.
Nouran_Soliman: Um most participants in fact expressed Their Fear 
  to be judged as ignorant or stupid or needy even though they know 
  the value of um asking for paper recommendations in in these 
  spaces and how they consider um papers defined there as like 
  Collective wisdom.
Nouran_Soliman: There was also a a clear preference for um 
  knowing some signal about uh who the interacting with instead of 
  complete anonymity.
Nouran_Soliman: Like a lot of participants stated that they are 
  unlikely to engage with random questions from Anonymous uh 
Nouran_Soliman: So in general the results emphasize uh the 
  existing social barrier in these uh spaces and the potential for 
  meronem as an effective solution.
Nouran_Soliman: So we used insights from our study to support the 
  design of our mirin emiti framework uh and then we built a system 
  named literature on top of Twitter and mastered them that 
  incorporates this model.
Nouran_Soliman:  so next.
<manu_sporny> That name is awesome "LiTweeture"
Nouran_Soliman: I'm going to present um our meronem framework and 
  literature by walking you through a user scenario about uh a 
  researcher who asks for paper recommendations.
Nouran_Soliman: Um and we were particularly interested in this 
  use case uh of asking about research paper recommendations 
  because in our formative study we found that it has a high value 
  of our Scholars and also um there are um a lot of Social 
  Challenges around the help seeking part of this um interaction.
Nouran_Soliman: So this is Alice this uh Alice is a junior 
  student who works in Ai and Alice wants to explore the literature 
  for a new project.
Nouran_Soliman: But then Alice remember is coming across high 
  quality recommendations on Twitter and decides to ask AI 
  community on Twitter.
Nouran_Soliman: However she doesn't want to look stupid or 
  ignorant and she feels anxious about doing that publicly.
Nouran_Soliman: So Alice decides to sign up to the Tweeter which 
  supports miranis interactions on Twitter and on mastadon.
Nouran_Soliman: So basically on sign up Alice has to link her 
  claimed author profile on semantics scholar and her Twitter 
  account to litscher in order to verify her identity so the system 
  then uses uh Alice's publication history and Twitter network uh 
  to compute verified identity description uh descriptors about 
  Alice that can be used to compose Mirren when posting her 
Nouran_Soliman: But then since Alice is a junior she doesn't have 
  much publication history so she adds Mark as her endorser uh 
  through the Tweeter which means she can leverage marks reputation 
  to present her identity mirrorless by using Mark's identity 
  signals along with hers.
Nouran_Soliman: So for example she can present herself as someone 
  who is endorsed by Mark.
Nouran_Soliman: So Mark then get uh Alice's request he then signs 
  up uh to literature again with a claimed author profile uh so the 
  process of claiming an author profile on semantic scholar you uh 
  sign up there um it's maybe a couple of days sometimes it's 
  quicker where they have like a rigorous verification process that 
  I think is done by humans involved um and then uh basically once 
  your once your profile is is claimed you're able to sign up to 
  the Tweeter um and then also you Pro so so Mark has to do that as 
  well and then the also he also provides his Twitter account.
Nouran_Soliman: Um and then he accepts Alice's request indicating 
  advisor as the relationship um and then Alice now can compose her 
  question select um and mix and match identity signals about 
  herself as or her endorser uh to present her her identity.
Nouran_Soliman: So it looks something like that um so basically 
  now Alice can uh has her question posted on her behalf so uh on 
  on Twitter and mastered it through literature on a dedicated 
  Tweeter page um with her miranis identity so uh at the top there 
  is the question and then following is uh the identity and because 
  of the Twitter character limit the identity is uh.
Nouran_Soliman: Like uh posted in in in a in another tweet in the 
  same thread.
Nouran_Soliman: How will relevant experts come across the 
Nouran_Soliman: So um Alice can actually add experts to her 
  question to her request through the Tweeter who are people she 
  thinks are best suited to answer her question so so Alice decides 
  uh to add an AI expert Rita to her request um.
Nouran_Soliman: And on adding an expert on the Tweeter the system 
  tries to figure out uh relationship signals between the expert 
  and the asker so Rita and Alice and the expert and the endorser 
  Rita and Marc.
Nouran_Soliman: Um Alice remembers that Rita collaborated before 
  with her indoor third Mark so she decides to disclose this 
  connection to Rita.
Nouran_Soliman: So basically Alice can um privately disclose 
  these 3 that through email or direct messaging um so for example 
  Alice can disclose to Rita that she is someone endorsed by Mark 
  who some who who basically worked with Rita before.
Nouran_Soliman: That let's say she follows Rita on Twitter and 
  vice versa.
Nouran_Soliman: So basically uh she can privately disclose more 
  relationship signals uh specifically uh to each expert.
Nouran_Soliman: And then uh Rita uh receives uh the message uh 
  she quickly recognizes the connection uh of the Oscar to her dear 
  collaborate her Mark and that the Oscar is a junior student from 
  the community who she follows on Twitter so she feels compelled 
  answering the question on Twitter from her personal account.
Nouran_Soliman: It looks like uh to look something like that so 
  now Rita are commented um.
Nouran_Soliman:  on the.
Nouran_Soliman: But then now some experts uh will be able to see 
  the question but how will more people from the community come 
  across the post since like.
Nouran_Soliman: Um the questions get posted to the dedicated 
  literature pages on Twitter and on masculine so um maybe rather 
  than people do not follow the Tweeter uh so how do we increase 
  the visibility of um.
Nouran_Soliman: Something of of these questions.
Nouran_Soliman:  so for.
Nouran_Soliman: That we introduced the helper uh so Alice adds 
  Dave her friend um as her helper so basically a helper in 
  literature is someone who is motivated to help their colleagues 
  uh that the poster trusts and basically the the helper receives a 
  private request from the asker through email or direct messaging.
Nouran_Soliman: Identity of the Oscar disclosed so the idea here 
  is that this is your friend uh their motivated to help you and um 
  they kind of retweet your or reshare the content you posted uh to 
  their networks in order to uh.
Nouran_Soliman: Basically increase the visibility and for that we 
  kind of disclose the identity fully uh privately in order to 
  basically provide this motivation of helping colleagues or 
  friends uh in answering questions so kind of leveraging the idea 
  of social capital in an academic context um and um um and that's 
  why it's kind of like oh these are like the colleagues the close 
Nouran_Soliman: Uh so in this scenario they've received a message 
  saying um your friend Alice is asking you to sh to reshare her 
  morinomiya the question is miranis but privately Dave knows that 
  Alice asked this question.
Nouran_Soliman: Attendees feel motivated to support his friend by 
  retweeting her question uh with a word of endorsement.
Nouran_Soliman: So um now.
Nouran_Soliman:  more people.
Nouran_Soliman: People can see the question uh and through 
  literature actually users who come across the post can also 
  contribute to threads mirrorless.
Nouran_Soliman: In a similar manner manner as as described before 
  so basically uh in this example the last tweet in the thread is 
  an example of a user Who provided a paper recommendation through 
  the Tweeter and chose to describe themselves as a junior student.
Nouran_Soliman: And uh of course for that uh responses have to be 
  moderated uh by Alice before they get posted and broadcast it to 
  both threads on Twitter and on master.
Nouran_Soliman: So now Alice feels happy and validated that her 
  questions received engagement like and responses.
Nouran_Soliman: So how do we evaluate that uh so our evaluation 
  aimed to explore how participants interacted with the key 
  features of literature for seeking paper recommendations uh 
  compared to the you their usual approaches we also wanted to gain 
  insights into how the interacted with identities.
Nouran_Soliman: So we deployed that feature in a 1 month uh 
  within subjects longitudinal field study so basically we asked 
  participants to ask for people recommendations using the feature 
  versus any other method uh of their choice uh so on signup 
  participants were randomly assigned um to 1 condition um and then 
  after 2 weeks uh we switched the condition and um basically the 2 
  conditions 1 is um ask a question and provide a paper 
  recommendation using the Tweeter each week and the Baseline is 
  basically just asking a question using regular methods that they 
  would feel like using um.
Nouran_Soliman: We then use the data from surveys so at at the 
  end of each weekly tasks we asked uh participants to fill a 
  reflection survey um and at the very end of the study we uh we 
  interview participants to kind of gain more qualitative insights 
  around um their experience so we used results from surveys 
  interviews also action logs and task entries in our data 
Nouran_Soliman: So I'm going to describe uh some of the results 
  but you can like refer to the paper for more detailed discussion.
Nouran_Soliman: So first of all uh our results show that 
  participants felt really comfortable reaching out to experts they 
  would normally be intimidated by while wearing a little bit of a 
  mask using the feature with evidence on contacting more experts 
  they don't have an existing relationship with um unlike the 
  Baseline condition so in the Baseline condition actually 
  participants never reached out to someone they don't they haven't 
  talked to before or the never had or they don't have a strong 
  relationship with.
Nouran_Soliman: Um but in the literature condition that actually 
  happened that there were more participants reaching out to uh 
  people they've never talked to before or people they they learned 
  uh they have they work on a similar line of work but uh they 
  don't have a relationship with.
Nouran_Soliman: Um and in a lot of cases this actually yielded 
  more novel paper recommendations.
Nouran_Soliman: Um the other big result is uh participants also 
  strategically revealed certain aspects about their identity in 
  order to balance between credibility and also uh Express the 
  relevant experience while maintaining their anonymity when asking 
  questions so um you can see the quotes on the screen where uh 1 
  participant said oh this provides a good balance between 
  anonymity while also showing people that me and my indoor sir 
  have the relevant experience in the field and that we are part of 
  the community.
Nouran_Soliman: Um also uh a number of participants really like 
  the idea of having an endorser where they can actually.
Nouran_Soliman: Kind of show that.
Nouran_Soliman: Oh we were really uh part of this community we 
  were credible we're really serious about our questions.
Nouran_Soliman: Um my name is also provided context to 
  participants when answering a question so 1 participant actually 
  mentioned how they tried to tailor the response by providing Chi 
  papers to the asker when the asker uh mentioned that they 
  published before at Chi so uh basically kind of giving context 
Nouran_Soliman: What kind of Oscar or why the Oscar is asking 
  this question in which context and this was also interestingly 
  reflected as well when people were providing answers so for 
  example when.
Nouran_Soliman: Uh someone was providing uh paper recommendation 
  and the felt like very confident about this recommendation they 
  would uh most of the time signal uh their publication history and 
  prestigious conferences or maybe their affiliation something that 
  kind of indicates expertise versus like if they know of something 
  relevant by but they don't think it's the best.
Nouran_Soliman: Uh recommendation they usually uh try to signal 
  that by just sharing very basic uh signals things like Oh I'm a 
  junior student uh things like that so also kind of like signaling 
  the experience and uh and this was also reflected in how we 
  perceive the recommendations as well like if it's from a junior 
  student it's usually perceived differently um um.
Nouran_Soliman: Um different from like if if a senior student or 
  someone who has knowledge in the field uh provided that 
Nouran_Soliman: So although our results um have shown great 
  potential for meronem there are still risks to be taken into 
  consideration um such as calibrating the social pressure um so 
  the idea there is.
Nouran_Soliman: We don't want to literature to make it too easy 
  to ask questions and burden others um so it's really important to 
  think of ways to.
Nouran_Soliman:  kind of.
Nouran_Soliman: Make it hard enough uh to mitigate the social uh 
  pressure and yet um.
Nouran_Soliman: Kind of um do the.
Nouran_Soliman:  sum amount.
Nouran_Soliman: I've heard uh in order to um ask questions.
Nouran_Soliman: Um the other risk is uh the possibility of the 
  anonymizing individuals if they identifiers are very unique um.
Nouran_Soliman: For that we we actually provided um.
Nouran_Soliman: ERS with the flexibility to mix and match uh 
  whatever identity you would like to reveal um participants were 
  generally aware of uh this idea some were really uh more cautious 
  than others uh more cautious participants tended to reveal very 
  minimal signals uh but yet still relevant uh while other 
  participants at the end of of the other spectrum is basically 
  felt well I don't mind if actually someone.
Nouran_Soliman: Try is to do the work and the anonymized it just 
  I just don't want my name to be in there.
Nouran_Soliman:  um so there is that um.
Nouran_Soliman: Variability and also some participants felt more 
  comfortable re uh uh revealing more signals about themselves the 
  the longer they use literature so it's kind of like a problem of 
  getting adjusted and trusting the system.
Nouran_Soliman: Third um concern is the idea of the rich getting 
  richer effect where.
Nouran_Soliman: The most connected people would would receive 
  most of the attention um so if I say that my endorser is amazing 
  and I have all this experience maybe this gets my questions more 
  answered um and for that we uh we think that it's really 
  important to try to also um create more inclusive signals so 
  signals that highlight if someone belongs to a minority group or 
  maybe uh more signals about uh people or gender or and so on and 
  so forth and kind of.
Nouran_Soliman: Help Oscars provide more uh relevant details that 
  could motivate the community to support these uh groups.
Nouran_Soliman: Uh we haven't implemented that but we think this 
  is a really promising uh Direction which also raises um question 
  of how do we verify these claims.
Nouran_Soliman: There are also interesting um directions in 
  improving meronem in terms of combining meronem with pseudonymity 
  so basically.
Nouran_Soliman: Someone can uh um combined a bunch of signals to 
  create a Persona and then use this Persona to uh build reputation 
  uh so basically you would have different mirror names and with 
  each mirror name different reputations uh so we think this could 
  be really interesting uh to try.
Nouran_Soliman: And then um finally you um something that I'm uh 
  currently actually trying to pursue is broadening the application 
  of Marin imiti to other use cases uh outside of Academia uh 
  actually inside and outside but um I'm very interested to think 
  about ways to apply meronem in a.
Nouran_Soliman: More General conversation that is sensitive uh in 
  a professional organization or workspace such as the MIT campus 
  um and how do we uh incorporate that uh what kind of signals do 
  we use there and how do we verify these signals and also on the 
  other side if if it's a if if this is going to be a sensitive 
  conversation about contentious topics such as workplace 
  harassment or um mental health or other like uh conflicts in the 
  world how do we uh protect the receivers as well so there is a 
  very um Central moderation piece here as well that we need to 
  think about.
Nouran_Soliman: So I guess that's kind of the end of my talk um 
  I'm going to leave this up here um with like the takeaways from 
  the talk and thank you for listening and I'd love to receive 
  questions or feedback.
Harrison_Tang: Great uh Greg you're in the queue.
GregB: Sorry that was an intentional.
Harrison_Tang: Got it no problem man wait.
Manu Sporny:  Hey uh Hey neuron this uh is uh wonderful work 
  really uh fantastic the the paper is uh really great as well um 
  and I've got a lots of questions um I think the the um.
Manu Sporny:   Most specific.
Manu Sporny:  Is you know this is uh we are a community that 
  works on global standards for the web and the internet um there 
  are a number of us that work on uh you know verifiable 
  credentials which would be a way of expressing meronem to um 
  systems um in a decentralized way like I'm a student at this 
  location or I have uh you know a connection with this uh 
  individual the the um helpers and uh you know those types of 
  roles and links you were talking about um are suited for you know 
  this verifiable credential technology.
Manu Sporny:  There are a number of us that also participate in 
  global standards work around.
Manu Sporny:  Uh social networking standards so things like 
  activity Pub which Powers Mastadon and threads and that sort of 
  thing um I guess the the the question for you is I heard you 
  saying these are things that you would like to look into I'm 
  wondering if you're also considering uh places that you that you 
  feel like some of these Concepts uh could be deployed into like 
  we could take some of these Concepts you feel that they're stable 
  enough now where we could start moving them into some Global 
  standards around social networking protocols um do you feel like 
  the research is kind of at that stage yet uh and if so are you 
  already working with people uh to do that or do you have a desire 
  to work with people to do that.
Nouran_Soliman: Um I guess this is really wonderful uh kind of 
  shipping something like that out in the wild and collecting data 
  or trying to see how people use it uh I'm not working on that 
  with anybody um I'd be very interested to work on that um I don't 
  know if David also has other thoughts around it but that would be 
  my personal take on that um and in terms of the research being 
  ready for this.
Nouran_Soliman: I think so personally because we kind of try to 
  test that in a realistic environment.
Nouran_Soliman: So um 1 month study where we got people to try to 
  use it and we talked extensively about the idea we had them try 
  it and it seems really promising so.
Nouran_Soliman: Um that would be something I'd be really uh 
  interested to to collaborate on.
David_Karger: Uh yeah I'll just throw in a little bit on this 
  question of of protocols I think it's quite interesting um and.
David_Karger: I mean you asked about you know meronem is a 
  concept and it's interesting to wonder about the the maturity of 
  a concept right I'm sure we'll figure out a lot of other things 
  about meronem uh as we go forward but that doesn't really 
  preclude thinking about how to introduce it already right so if I 
  think about activity Pub um which is a a protocol we're using in 
  some other projects we're working on.
David_Karger: You know Marini just raises the general idea of 
  allowing people to uh make activity Pub posts that don't 
  specifically identify the author by uh by by a a a clear identity 
  uh but instead provide a a meronem uh within the post and I think 
  I think.
David_Karger:  you know.
David_Karger: Know exactly what the Marin be um and how it would 
  be verified are very interesting open questions but we don't have 
  to wait for a complete maturity of the meronem concept to be able 
  to think about that basic question of just how to introduce 
  meronem into activity P posts uh which I think would be really 
  natural and and conceivably very useful.
Harrison_Tang: By the way a clarification question so for the 
  literature uh literature is that a working thing like that's 
  launched or just a prototype.
Nouran_Soliman: Um it was working uh until um Twitter API changed 
  and right now we took it down so uh I might do some um 
  engineering and just.
Nouran_Soliman: Back working uh with masteron but right now it's 
Harrison_Tang: Got it thank you.
David_Karger: Yeah we we we unfortunately we launched this I 
  think 1 week before they made the sudden change to the Twitter 
  API so that you can't really use Twitter for anything anymore.
David_Karger: But I think we could it's it's only a matter of 
  engineering to get it working with Mastadon again.
Harrison_Tang: Got it thank you.
Harrison_Tang: Phil your next in the queue.
PL/T3: There am I on now um.
PL/T3: First of all a great talk and very very nice to read the 
  paper accompanying it um I'm just curious your perceptions of the 
  just the degree to which um the various decisions that someone 
  needs to make with respect to disclosing their identity.
PL/T3: Introduces friction to the point of of of uh interfering 
  with the potential functional.
PL/T3: Come that you're seeking I can see it in the context of 
  this particular use case with particularly high stakes from the 
  academics point of view in terms of a junior researcher or 
  student even.
PL/T3: To or wanting to get feedback from a senior person and you 
  pointed out that you know those that information is going to be 
  around forever so how they appear and and the way in which they 
  comport themselves in this context carries a lot of weight.
PL/T3: I'm just wondering if you have thoughts about it in terms 
  of diminishing the ways in which the friction to make selections 
  over identity disclosure could be reduced so that it is more 
  likely to happen in places where the motivations perhaps are 
  slightly diminished thanks.
Nouran_Soliman: Um I I'm not sure I understood the question right 
  but um.
Nouran_Soliman: The question like.
Nouran_Soliman: About the friction between revealing.
Nouran_Soliman: A lot about oneself that it basically interferes 
  with the idea of.
Nouran_Soliman: Having things Forever on the Internet or.
PL/T3: The the question really is um the motivation for making a 
  selection about what you're going to disclose take some thought 
  and and and consideration and and it makes sense that someone 
  will go to the effort to do that really carefully when the stakes 
  are High um it's not clear to me that it would be as likely to 
  happen um when you're interested in that a feedback in a 
  particular set of outcomes.
PL/T3: Um the stakes may not be so dramatic and the question is 
  is the effort it takes to make those decisions about the the 
  balance of what's in the marinich um disclosure component um Ma 
  you know what do you have thoughts that you might have to make 
  that effort minimal and yet useful.
Nouran_Soliman: Uh okay that's a good question um.
Nouran_Soliman: In terms of effort I think.
Nouran_Soliman: In this specific study for example.
Nouran_Soliman: It was uh computed set of.
Nouran_Soliman: Signals uh that is exactly the same every time 
  people want to interact so basically these just.
Nouran_Soliman: Familiarize themselves with it um and um kind of.
Nouran_Soliman: It again and again so that kind of helps with 
Nouran_Soliman: I guess like the like it's and what I've seen is 
  that people.
Nouran_Soliman:  tend to.
Nouran_Soliman: To a number of signals most of the time so it's 
  like maybe 1 or 2 conferences uh 1 or.
Nouran_Soliman: To um like the basically built a strategy and try 
  to apply that every time um so I guess it I didn't see a lot of 
  uh effort in in like um composing the identity as much as 
  actually inviting experts and having to think about who has 
  relevant work and so on and so forth.
Nouran_Soliman:  uh so.
Nouran_Soliman: I think in terms of.
<pl/t3> A deterministic meronym is computed for them so the 
  judgment to use it is less than I thought.
Nouran_Soliman: Making it easier um I mean things we've been 
  thinking about is um.
Nouran_Soliman: What if we actually provided.
Nouran_Soliman: Like allowed people to just write whatever they 
  want like in a free form text like would that actually how would 
  that look like and how do we verify that uh but assuming there is 
  a way to verify these signals I suppose.
Nouran_Soliman: This could also.
Nouran_Soliman: Be aware of not overwhelming users with a lot of 
  signals to pick from um.
Nouran_Soliman: Yeah I I'll have to think about that more uh but 
  generally this is what comes to my mind uh relevant to your 
PL/T3: Thank you very much.
David_Karger: Um I mentioned an interesting or orthogonal there's 
  there's actually a lot of work on identity disclosure um but it's 
  it's interestingly orthogonal what what's usually studied is um 
  the effort involved for people deciding whether to disclose a 
  particular facet of their identity um for example if they're a 
  member of some marginalized Community um so in in in that work 
  which has been studied the identity of the individual is known 
  but the what they wrestle with is the costs and benefits of 
  disclosing some particular facet of their identity um Marin imiti 
  kind of takes that works in the opposite direction um you start 
  by disclosing facets of your identity uh and hopefully your your 
  actual identity is not disclosed at all.
David_Karger: And of course that's that's the big risk uh is if 
  you disclose too many facets of your identity uh it may make you 
  identifiable um and and destroy the the partial anonymity that 
  you're trying to preserve.
David_Karger: And so 1 of the things that we've talked about is 
  uh how our tools can help a user uh be confident that they are 
  not disclosing too much um you can imagine for example that if 
  somebody uh generates a a mirror onimus description of themselves 
  um a platform can actually tell them how many other people also 
  fit that mirrors description.
David_Karger: Um so that's an example of Systems Support to help 
  people with this decision making around uh the disclosure but but 
  certainly it is a very important topic for for for thinking about 
  the costs and benefits um of these sorts of disclosures and the 
  risks that you are facing in having your true identity disclosed.
<pl/t3> @David - that's great observation. facet disclosure by 
  anonymity preserved versus of identity disclosure and revealing 
<harrison_tang> i feel that meronymity in some way just changes 
  the "trust anchor" from an individual (e.g. someone) to a group 
  (e.g. some organization or group).  so people just have one more 
  tool in their tool belt
Harrison_Tang: Dimitry you're next.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Want to say thank you for uh fantastic 
  presentation and wanted to uh encourage your uh investigation 
  implementation on activity B so um as a co-chair of the.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  About Social Web community group at w3c where 
  activity Bob is 1 of the specifications that we're currently 
  stewarding uh we'd love to come have you present and talk to our 
  developers I think the activity Pub community in general would be 
  very interested both in this concept of meronem in general and 
  the specific implementation details.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Uh in terms of verifiable credentials 
  decentralized identifiers and so on so just wanted uh to applaud 
  that aspect and then please please keep going with that.
David_Karger: Uh we would we would love to have that conversation 
  make that presentation can can you reach out to neuron to sort of 
  try and move that forward.
Harrison_Tang: I'll make the I'll make the introduction.
Harrison_Tang: You you're next.
<dmitri_zagidulin> will do!!
Manu Sporny:  Yeah uh yeah and and in that vein uh plus 1 to that 
  uh Demetri is definitely the right person to talk to about the 
  activity Pub stuff in the community um there are other groups as 
  well so so activity Pub feels like something that we could focus 
  on um certainly to try and get this stuff out into protocols uh 
  there's also the verifiable credentials working group uh at w3c 
  the decentralized identifiers working group that would could help 
  with some parts of the technology um that could could Implement 
  uh marinys um there's also the Blue Sky folks I don't know if 
  you're connected with them but I'm happy to do that connection as 
  well um but well all all this to say um David I if if you can 
  kind of let us know who.
Manu Sporny:  You know which communities you would like to speak 
  with there are enough of us on this call to make those 
  introductions and potentially even help move the technical work 
  forward to make that happen um I think we we largely need to kind 
  of understand what you know both of your interest is where 
  specifically would you like to see things go and then based on 
  that we can figure out you know oh is it more activity Pub 
  related and you know booking you into that Community or is it you 
  know also verifiable credentials related or should we kind of 
  broad brush go against all the fediverse you know projects um.
Manu Sporny:  That's it so we we um there's definitely a desire 
  to try and connect both of you with the right people in the 
  ecosystem um.
Manu Sporny:   Uh I think.
Manu Sporny:  We we had since we know your email we can we can 
  reach out and and try to do those connections.
Manu Sporny:   That's it.
<pl/t3> @Nouran @David Dmitri and I are also working on a 
  recommender service n to VCs and introducing meronymity into that 
  would be teriffice. That's under LinkedClaims as a topic.
David_Karger: Uh that would be lovely uh I mean any any and all 
  of the above you know obviously we're we're a very low Resource 
  Group uh but you know we we have an idea that we think could be 
  beneficial and so if there are things that we can do to advance 
  that that idea towards people who can help turn it into a reality 
  um you know that that's very much 1 1 of our goals is to is to 
  improve online discussion generally and we think that marigny can 
  be a part of that so if you think that there are people who would 
  be interested to hear about it.
David_Karger: Different uh subgroups we'd be happy to talk to 
Harrison_Tang: Great um great your next.
GregB: I wanted to say on the infrastructure part of things um 
  and the verifiable credential group we've been working on.
GregB: Pseudonyms unlined disclosure and these are the kind of 
  things that could be very beneficial to kind of building up the 
  infrastructure it's it's a level down so you have a credential 
  that's selectively disclose that's unlink we do worry about an 
  anonymity set kind of things and.
GregB:  some of.
GregB: Requirements go and feed the current work on certain types 
  of signatures going on at the um ietf uh cryptographic group so 
  if you've got inputs you're interested in some of these things we 
  could try and help out on some of that infrastructure stuff uh 
  we've got uh some specs that are getting pretty mature but and 
  we're focusing on some of these things like pseudonyms at a low 
GregB: Could be of help so being.
David_Karger: That's really great and Greg if I could fire a 
  suggestion back um you know we did this work with the semantic 
  scholar team.
David_Karger: And our our Marin are generated through uh through 
  verification by semantic scholar.
David_Karger: And I wonder if they would be interested in uh sort 
  of providing a more General um credential service of of the sort 
  that you mentioned right um and if you want uh to be connected to 
  the I mean you can see who our co-authors are who are at semantic 
  scholar um but that might be an interesting place to begin that 
  conversation about how to create these I I forgot what you called 
  them but these these unlined that's it.
GregB: Unlivable selectively disclose credentials we have 
  cryptographic standards that help us do that have.
David_Karger: Exactly so so semantic scholar might be a good 
  source of those 4 academic.
Harrison_Tang: By the way Greg uh earlier you you gave a 
  presentation on using DBS at the general knowledge proof for 
  students like uh can BBS and general knowledge proof be used to 
  implement narrow merrylands basically.
GregB: Well the thing that struck me uh 1 form of our 
  cryptographic pseudonyms not to be confused with a a facing 
  pseudonym is the fact that you could take credentials.
GregB: From get credentials from multiple places that are 
  Anonymous but then be able to present them that they belong to me 
  even though for they're from different issuers so the advisor 
  says yes I certify this person is my adise then I've got another 
  set from say man semantic scholar yes this person published these 
GregB: We have separate credentials but then we can go and 
  present them into the meronem system saying look these all belong 
  to me there really are me and such like that and do that in an 
  unlink but they're all me and such like that so.
GregB: I there's some interesting possibilities and.
GregB: We can do it both ways.
David_Karger: I think there are 2 ways you want to think about 
  that uh sometimes you want to say they're all me uh but sometimes 
  you don't write like sometimes you want to keep a post entirely 
  unlink and you know this is a post from somebody who has this 
  meronem this collection of credentials um but it doesn't want to 
  be associated with any other the value of a pseudonym is the way 
  it links multiple posts together and you can assess that they're 
  from the same author even if you don't know who that author is so 
  sometimes you would like a Moran and otherwise at other times you 
  want uh Anonymous Marini.
GregB: Yep yep yep.
David_Karger: But it sounds like your infrastructure could 
  support both.
GregB: Yeah like I just I I gotta understand it enough so that I 
  can get it all the way down to our crypto stuff but uh great 
  conversation we can have more.
Harrison_Tang: Right well at time we're at time uh this is a 
  great uh presentation thank you Nora uh if you don't mind can you 
  actually share with uh me or the public group in regards to the 
  link to your presentation.
Nouran_Soliman: Yeah for sure I'll mail it to you.
Harrison_Tang: Cool I'll follow up with you as well so thank you 
  um yeah thanks a lot this is a great presentation uh you know 
  this concludes this week's ccg meeting and uh thanks to neuron 
  thanks uh everyone uh for for joining us today.
Nouran_Soliman: Thank you it was great to be here.

Received on Wednesday, 3 July 2024 16:21:50 UTC