- From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
- Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2024 23:08:30 +0000
- To: public-credentials@w3.org
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week! The transcript for the call is now available here: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2024-12-03/ Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes. Audio of the meeting is available at the following location: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2024-12-03/audio.ogg A video recording is also available at: https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-weekly-2024-12-03.mp4 ---------------------------------------------------------------- W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2024-12-03 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=%5BAGENDA&period_month=Dec&period_year=2024&index-grp=Public__FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-credentials&resultsperpage=20&sortby=date Organizer: Harrison Tang, Kimberly Linson, Will Abramson Scribe: Our Robot Overlords Present: Harrison Tang, Kimberly Linson, Simone Ravaoli, Vanessa, Dmitri Zagidulin, Ildiko Mazar, Erica Connell, Mahmoud Alkhraishi, Rashmi Siravara, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), Will Abramson, Greg Natran, Adam Bradlet, Joe Andrieu, James Chartrand, Tim Bloomfield, Colin Reynolds, Ed Design Lab, Nis Jespersen , Greg Bernstein, Adam Bradley, Kaliya Young, Jeff O / HumanOS, Jennie M, Kerri Lemoie, Przemek Praszczalek Our Robot Overlords are scribing. Kimberly Linson: All right oh. Harrison_Tang: Right we're good to go. <harrison_tang> Add "Topic: <VC EDU Task Force Updates>" Kimberly Linson: All right well welcome everybody we are really excited to have an update from the vce to task force today um they have been doing there's been a lot of work going on um and that is definitely um since I'm also in the education space um I'm excited to hear from from everything that's been there um to kind of quickly um run through our housekeeping notes uh 1 I want to remind everyone of the um professional code of conduct and ethics that we adhere to in this community we are. Kimberly Linson: All working towards the same goals we may approach things differently but I think keeping in mind that that this is a collaborative and and congenial Community is um is definitely something to keep the front of your mind and um we also. Kimberly Linson: Anyone to to participate in these meetings and are happy that you're here if you would like to participate more formally then you can uh join the follow the links in the agenda to to join the ccg formally and fill out an IPR agreement we would invite you to do that and encourage you to do that um so that you can become an active participant uh in in 2025. Kimberly Linson: And uh also we keep. Kimberly Linson: Record of the of these calls via the audio recording the recording we just started and also the chat um so that we have the a record of these meetings for historical um art for our archive. Kimberly Linson: And if you have questions or you want to participate in the conversation then I would advise you to put Q Plus in the chat um and then that really will will uh identify for me as I'm uh moderating the meeting that you have something you want to say or a question you want to ask and I will be responsible for. Kimberly Linson: Um facilitating that conversation and uh now comes the time where I would love to invite anyone in the community to introduce themselves if they're new to this conversation or if you haven't been here for a while and would like to reintroduce yourself um I would definitely invite you to do so now by putting yourself on the queue. Kimberly Linson: All right hopefully that was a long enough teacher pause uh I will next turn it over to announcements and reminders does anyone have an announcement or a reminder for the community that wants to share. Kimberly Linson: Okay and then uh 1 more housekeeping item before we move on uh is just around work items does anyone have anything uh they need to discuss around work items here in the conversation. Kimberly Linson: All right then it is my pleasure to turn it over to Simone in Elo to um did I say that right ELO. Kimberly Linson: Uh uh to to give us an update on VCU and we can have a conversation around being in the education Community around credentials. Simone Ravaoli: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1lhv0n83G919ot-J2Xm-bwXC6P4TQZuXF8VZBMUdd9nA/edit?usp=sharing Will Abramson: Yeah yeah great it's kind of related I I just wanted to like what did method if did method did methods are you using and what criteria did you use to choose them. Dmitri Zagidulin: Absolutely yeah so uh. Dmitri Zagidulin: This is a great question the answer will not surprise you. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh so there's a specialty came up in the. Dmitri Zagidulin: Jobs for the future foundations interoperability plugfest which I think we've uh we may have presented uh in the past to this group on the plugfest um those of you who are new or haven't seen the presentation uh I highly recommend it because it was a remarkable event. Dmitri Zagidulin: This is the only vertical that I know of that brought together uh like 30 or so different implementers of wallets credential issuers and then in later on credential verifiers and actually made sure that they work together so a credential issued from 1 issuer could be received and displayed and requested by another wallet that is not of that vendor right so like. Dmitri Zagidulin: Yes I've. Dmitri Zagidulin: Basically we're all. Dmitri Zagidulin: All implementing the specifications but and this probably would not surprise all of you that that doesn't mean in interoperability. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh interoperability only happens when lots of Dev teams stay up late for lots of weeks and actually make it happen. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh so it was a remarkable experience but getting back to dids so uh so we kept the spreadsheet of the various Technologies apis and did methods used and so. Dmitri Zagidulin: The answer is exactly what you would expect uh all the teams started with did Q. Dmitri Zagidulin: Because it's. Dmitri Zagidulin: The easiest 1 because it's self-contained and so on uh most teams also added support for did web. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh there were a bunch of teams that did did jwk which is uh another sort of serialization for Digi. Dmitri Zagidulin: He was a grab bag uh there was a couple of sovereign based ones uh I vaguely recall checked was there uh in a couple of other uh ledgers and blockchains. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh so for the most part we saw Vicki and did Webb and did jwk and this was before a trusted did web method came about I suspect highly suspect that if we had if we held the blood Fest now we would see a lot more uh trusted did Webb or as it has been renamed uh did Webb verifiable history okay so that's it for this. <simone_ravaioli> MC = MicroCredentials <simone_ravaioli> DESM = Data Ecosystem Schema Mapper <kerri_lemoie> There was a browser plugin submission at the hackathon that we will be following up on. It made it possible for a VC to be rendered & verified in a browser. Kerri Lemoie: Sure I don't have too much more to add than that there were quite a few submissions um not as many that use the standards as we had hoped so we're going to be doing some like follow-up and maybe some a future I don't know other hackathon or more to like get people engaged um. Kerri Lemoie: There was 1 very interesting submission which was a and I'm sorry I don't have the link to it right here but I can find it later for um a browser plug-in that could verify and display a credential which um you know we were we were pretty happy with that so um we're going to follow up on that 1 with the the person who created it. <ildiko_mazar> <3 Kerri Lemoie: Um and then uh all of you see I do co-chairs you just been doing really great job managing all of these issues and content so I just sort of want to give you a shout out because we have a lot going on in education right now um and there's a whole lot of different angles to consider um different standards um the multilingual credentials is a really kind of a hot topic for the coming year and I also know like we I'll say a lot that we're probably going to start looking into self Sovereign identity at the DCC so we hope to bring that to VCU and start really working on on the because obviously we're all very worried about privacy of data and and controlling more of that as we start moving forward with verifiable credentials so anyway I IO and endometriosis Simone thank you for the great work you've been doing all year we really appreciate you. <dmitri_zagidulin> one second <dmitri_zagidulin> audio problem I think <dmitri_zagidulin> I can hear but can't speak <dmitri_zagidulin> reloading Kimberly Linson: Is reloading and it appears we have somebody. <simone_ravaioli> This is one of the Hackathon winner - the browser extension https://devpost.com/software/crediview Kimberly Linson: Just got a typewriter going to. <ildiko_mazar> Absolutely. Big shoes to fill :-) <3 Dmitri Zagidulin: All right yes excellent yes um I I could hear everybody really well but wasn't picking up my microphone. Kerri Lemoie: :Heart: Thanks, Simone. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh so thank you so much uh K words yeah so the other pro project uh that we think is really interesting and relevant both to the education ecosystem and to the general course are really favorite topic issuer and verifier registries. Dmitri Zagidulin: I I genuinely think for whatever side of historical reasons the education space the vertical. Dmitri Zagidulin: Kind of unique in in the space of verifying credentials uh it seems like we're kind of a canary in the coal mine in the sense that um there's been a lot of deployments and a lot of implementations and so uh teams and education hit up against problems that other verticals will have and will soon be faced with uh so as soon as we had um educationals like diplomas or student IDs or course credentials deployed to various wallets the problem immediately came up. Dmitri Zagidulin: I have a credential assigned is digitally signed but that digital signature is opaque it's an opaque random string right even it did is opaque and so the wallet or the verifier has to look it up somewhere on some list and that's the issue of registry. Dmitri Zagidulin: So we had a couple of like early uh early efforts and now credential engine uh as well as the mit's digital credential Consortium and a number of other organizations. Dmitri Zagidulin: Have gotten together and said okay uh this this is a pain point this is a problem let's just study of the existing. Simone Ravaoli: https://credentialengine.org/2024/09/04/issuer-registries-in-practice/ Dmitri Zagidulin: Issue registry and verifying uh so let's do a comparison of the features well and then let's pay back implemented and run a mock registry for a handful of months and then report back to the community so that's the process project happening now in um we're in the middle of so uh we did an evaluation of a number of credentials uh we're just about to start development on 1 specifications uh we're going to go with the the current front Ender is uh open ID Federation specification uh but but again we're still under discussion uh and planning phase but the reason I wanted to highlight this project is every single 1 of you who has anything to do with um verify because you're gonna talk about issue and verify register when I'm verifying when I'm displaying things how do I identify the digital signature of of this credential or any signed object so keep an eye on that effort really interesting. Dmitri Zagidulin: The other the other item uh here under T3 Innovation Mark and HR open is so creation we're all education credentials right again diplomas micro controls like individual courses skill-based credentials very important topic in space. Dmitri Zagidulin: And of course what else is important to education employment and resumes. Dmitri Zagidulin: So as uh as ildico and simony mentioned uh we we've been doing a lot of Outreach and um interaction with the standard bodies like 1te uh who who are doing the open badges uh their fiber credential specification as HR open uh which is exactly what it sounds like it's a another standards body that develops uh human resources job applicant tracking and resume standards. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh so we're we're sort of leasing with them to. Dmitri Zagidulin: To say what sort of let's say resume features we need from the education side uh what what we've learned right because there there a an area of vertical that is fairly new to the area of verifiable credentials so uh that there's a lot of uh good knowledge transfer happening there 1 of the 1 of the real grants in the area through the T3 foundation and the uh us chamber of. Dmitri Zagidulin: Been to create a couple of Open Source applications I have this. Dmitri Zagidulin: Are a patient that uh particularly allows people to both multiple solar radical. Dmitri Zagidulin: Into a big container credential on the link link uh all of us in the community believed in the importance of self issued credentials and of course both the challenge and the opportunity will self issue. Dmitri Zagidulin: Shows you they're not. Dmitri Zagidulin: Issued by a recognized Authority which means since the issuer is let's say unknown and untrusted you need to look to other signals uh to provide any sort of value or quality to the the credential and the main signals that we're looking to is attached evidence and then is importantly recommendations right so I can say. Dmitri Zagidulin: I know how to I don't know I can issue a credential that that that asserts to that scale by itself is not worth that much unless I provide links to evidence portfolio projects like here are some sites that I. Dmitri Zagidulin: Right and then and just as importantly I can I can provide recommendations we are also uh verifiable credentials issued by people in slightly more uh expertise and Authority professors co-workers uh collaborators at a hackathon that sort of thing right and so the link claims project is exploring how do you compose smaller credentials uh by using uh by using links uh and and and hashes liberally. Dmitri Zagidulin: How do you compare trusted graph if you will. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh and and experience you um project is also uh is exploring again the area of RS and job applications of okay so everybody has these PDF documents or documents that are their resumes how do we go from that to verify the credentials. Dmitri Zagidulin: And 1 of the sort of hypothesis being explored in the space is this notion of can we use LLS can we use large model type tools to scan through. Dmitri Zagidulin: Tax and pull out uh culture or possibly even verifiable credentials so so that's something um also to keep an eye on and then lrs is a uh a standard being developed by HR open to specifically Express uh a resume. Dmitri Zagidulin: It for uh from items so uh over to you. <ildiko_mazar> Demonstrated by this very meeting transcription :-) <harrison_tang> Yup <harrison_tang> Yup, I agree with camera on, too. But if everyone turns on the camera, I am afraid that it would crash Jitsi :) <ildiko_mazar> Can you hear me? <kimberly_wilson_linson> We cannot <ildiko_mazar> :-( Kimberly Linson: I I was curious some money to put that out to the the group at large and some of the folks that have been around for for a long time I think you know the the original idea is that you know we're committed to open source software and jitsi is an open source um software and so like that was really the reason for. Kimberly Linson: For for sticking with it for you know Manu has has spent many a weekend like uh you know trying to fix it um but this is a you know I didn't know this until today that that it was it wouldn't um register on us speakers which is a really big problem um I think defeats you know to me if I'm weighing our commitment to open source and our commitment to to having as many voices as the at the table as possible you know that having as many voices is going to win so um for me but I I am curious um you know I see a few folks who've been around in this community for a long time who who may know more about. Kimberly Linson: And you know how we might make it work for us or if we if we do need to consider alternatives. <ildiko_mazar> Okay, so recently I discovered by accident that I'm not the only one struggling to upload meeting minutes to Github. Apart from the index.html taking ages to generate, sometimes I still get 404 error messages when I try to view the final published index.html content. Kimberly Linson: Anyone have any thoughts. Dmitri Zagidulin: And I think the implication I think the implication here is that uh we in the VCI do our volunteering ourselves as test subjects uh be happy trouts uh other conferencing software and other transcription services and and report back to you all uh how that has worked. Kimberly Linson: Be very helpful Harrison. Harrison_Tang: Yeah I think we should give it a try I mean uh. Harrison_Tang: What is due or Microsoft teams or Google Hangout they'll have like transcription capabilities right so I think we should really give it a try and then uh and go from there you know. Harrison_Tang: Yeah there's 2 main restrictions right like I like questions from time to time and people have to rejoin and uh sometimes that's once you crash the transcription um doesn't work the follow-up transcriptions gone now there's all these different issues so so yeah I I think uh using another software probably makes more sense. Kimberly Linson: I'm glad you brought up to the idea of of increasing engagement and cameras on I mean I know I never turned mine on because I'm terrified of of of the the crashing. Kimberly Linson: Um but I also I also understand you know that this is noune for a lot of people and I know sometimes I sometimes I have certainly been eating my lunch during this meeting so um you know that I I I liked how you you phrase that Simone this idea of like how do we make it like that you can have your camera on but it's okay if you don't that that to to sort of increase that engagement it's a it's a really good question not when I have an answer to but I'm I'm definitely going to be thinking about it uh Muhammad. Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Hi uh 1 of the biggest issues with how to retrieve the same 1 that you guys are talking about with the transcription at the traceability cohort we've had so many problems we just turned off transcription and we ended up having a person scribing the entire time and we've been doing that for over a year. <ildiko_mazar> :-O Mahmoud Alkhraishi: And if you're volunteering to switch off of I should say that would be wonderful um at least for us to know I mean that work has concluded but for any future work I think I'm a plus 1 for trying something different. Kimberly Linson: That is really interesting and and yeah I I. Kimberly Linson: I remember the days when we were doing transcription as well Tall Ted I hope that. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Uh yeah speaking is 1 of the old fogies who's been around far too long um. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Definitely terrible uh it's better than some things. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And it is open source. <ildiko_mazar> As a matter of fact we do have full audio scripts, so we could just feed those to an Otter (or some similar transcriber). TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): But there are a lot of feelings in it like in most open source things. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): The rough edges only get sanded off if the right person feels the pain of them and then is motivated to go fix them um. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Mostly cost money. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): At some level. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): 1 advantage of being a w3c group is that I believe. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): We can use their uh. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Accounts somehow um. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): That cost money but. Dmitri Zagidulin: Oh that's really interesting we should look at that. <simone_ravaioli> W3C uses Zoom? and we use Jitsi.. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Um right so I'm in a bunch of community groups and most of them use the zoom stuff. <simone_ravaioli> ahaha TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Um and that is has been helpful. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Um transcription itself is a money thing Zoom has it I don't know if it's an add-on cost I don't know if it's available for use in in most calls um. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): There are concerns on various fronts about recordings both voice and video and even transcription people have privacy concerns. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Anyone who raises those privacy concerns basically Trump's the rest of the group in general. <ildiko_mazar> :+1: TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): I find that problematic I think that this is 1 of those things that the the majority should actually rule and hopefully that majority is willing to use the tools even if there is something of a privacy risk because what we're doing is meant to be in public and in View and. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): You can hide your face you can not speak and still listen and watch other people and that's legitimate. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): I think that's most of what I had to say about this I'll come back. <simone_ravaioli> the voice and video files are still recorded as part of the transcription Kimberly Linson: Thank you I really appreciate that your perspective. Kimberly Linson: Demetri were you trying to speak. Dmitri Zagidulin: I just wanted to say yeah thank you so much uh salted for the that perspective we should definitely investigate what our options are for W3 super structure uh whether we can use and where Army transcription is part of that Zoom uh the other thing that I would suggest is we looking to uh just take a glance at the current crop of Open Source services like uh like the centrally hosted jitsi and like big blue button uh as well as whatever ITF you. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh worth comparing against uh w3c zoom and then just picking 1 and then. Kimberly Linson: Well this was a really interesting discussion it's been something that that we chairs have talked about repeatedly and and it sounds like you all have been talking about in BCE to you and um. Kimberly Linson: Um something we should consider do you have something else to add. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Yeah I did remember another piece um 1 aspect of all of these choices is. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Ones operating system Andor Hardware needs to be in order to participate um. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Currently I have. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): The the 4 major teleconference tools I have available uh jitsi I'm stuck on a version several versions back uh for my local desktop client because they're upgraded required and upgraded my operating system which I cannot do for other reasons. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): WebEx is doing the same thing Zoom hasn't yet but they're threatening in that direction quietly um 1 of the other ones teams uh I cannot run the application I have to use this to the browser and that support will go away soon. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): All of these tools have both a desktop version and a run it in the browser version the run it in the browser version requires a version of the browser. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Is tied to that newer version of the operating system so it doesn't matter if the if I switch from the desktop app that no longer supports this old operating system. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Cannot run the reasons enough browser to run the browser version. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): It's all tangled and twisted. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Is not something that impacts most people in a a business environment or even an education environment but there are certainly people who try to participate in this sort of stuff who are not on The Cutting Edge or even close to it and so. TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Something to watch out for is whether the choice of tool locks people out just because of that requirement of updates. <ildiko_mazar> :+1: Kimberly Linson: I think that needs to be our primary goal is that again coming back to the purpose of all of these communities is to get as many voices to the table as possible so um you know whatever tool we use is is 1 that should be open no matter. Kimberly Linson: If you're International and you're trying to have your transcription show or um if you have um you're on an older browser and you want to be able to access so that's that's good criteria I think to use as we look as we look forward um all right well thank you that was a that was a great discussion it wasn't so much about the topics that you are all going to cover in 2025 which is interesting I think to just sort of highlight maybe the pain that we've we've all experienced is is. <ildiko_mazar> We do have a wish list, and we're willing to add to it if there is interest Kimberly Linson: Is enough now that we really do need to to look at Alternatives um but um I know that Simone and Leo and Demitri would love to hear uh from you um if you want to send a message to the list around what kinds of topics that they might want to be uh be presenting in 2025 so thank you everybody have a great rest of your day and we'll look forward to seeing you soon. <harrison_tang> thank you, Simone, Ildiko, and Dmitri!! <ildiko_mazar> Bye, have a great day
Received on Tuesday, 3 December 2024 23:08:37 UTC