[MINUTES] W3C CCG Credentials CG Call - 2023-09-19

Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:


W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2023-09-19

  Mike Prorock, Kimberly Linson, Harrison Tang
  Our Robot Overlords
  Harrison Tang, David Waite, Brandi Delancey, Alan Karp, Mike Xu, 
  Brian Campbell, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) 
  (OpenLinkSw.com), Stuart Freeman, pauld gs1, Jeff O - HumanOS, 
  Nis Jespersen , Greg Bernstein, Dmitri Zagidulin, Wendy Seltzer, 
  David Chadwick, Chandi Cumaranatunge, Kaliya Young, Geun-Hyung, 
  Nikos Fotiou, BC, David I. Lehn, Ted Thibodeau

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Harrison_Tang: Hi everyone so welcome to this week's at w3c ccg 
  meeting today we're going to have a very exciting topic a little 
  bit different usually we talk about the IDS decentralised 
  identifiers verifiable credentials and things like that today 
  we're going to talk about authentication which is basically a the 
  linkage doing the physical and virtual self and we got an expert 
  here David wait the principal technical architect of hidden 
  identity to lead the.
Harrison_Tang:  discussion of Fido and one of them so before we.
Harrison_Tang: Just want to do something quick and then stuff the 
  first of all just want to do a quick reminder of the code of 
  ethics and professional conduct just want to make sure that we 
  have a fruitful discussion here and hold a respectful 
  conversation all right anyone can participate in these calls 
  Harbor also extensive contributions to a nice easy walk items 
  must be members of the ccg with for IPR agreements signed so if 
Harrison_Tang:  have any.
Harrison_Tang: In regards to how you do that or if you have 
  problems sign up for the w3c account just reach out to any of the 
Harrison_Tang: These calls are being recorded and the meeting 
  minutes are automatically transcribed so we publish these meeting 
  minutes and audio recordings GitHub about within a day or two 
  basically within the week at the latest we use teach each a2q 
  speakers during the call so you can type in cubed plus to add 
  yourself to the cube or q- to remove.
Harrison_Tang: Like you just type in Q question mark.
Harrison_Tang: All right so that that's go to that introduction 
  so and reintroduction so if you are new to the community or if 
  you haven't been active and want to kind of introduce yourself a 
  little bit feel please feel free to just me.
Harrison_Tang: I see mostly familiar faces so if you're feeling a 
  little bit shy toward the editor we got time feel free to just be 
Harrison_Tang: Alright announcement and reminders any 
  announcements and or reminders.
Harrison_Tang: So on October 10th that's the week of the internet 
  identity Workshop we will be holding a special hybrid open house 
  session and IW so that will be 12 p.m. Pacific Time 3 p.m. 
  eastern time so Kimberly will be outside in Mountain View and 
  holding a hybrid open house session and people get join online 
  I'll special I'll send out the email about it.
Harrison_Tang:  the week prior so.
Harrison_Tang: That time will be a little bit different because 
  the our regular nine nine o'clock Pacific time kind of coincides 
  with open circle discussions during the IW so that will be pushed 
  to noontime Pacific Time or 3 p.m. eastern time.
Harrison_Tang: By any other announcement organizers.
Harrison_Tang: So click preview of what's coming so next week 
  we'll have not money and kind of talk about the selected 
  disclosure for data integrity and the week after that we'll talk 
  about proof of possessions at the application layer by Mike Jones 
  and then the week after that will be IW special hybrid open house 
  session and then the week after that would be selective 
  disclosure mechanisms different selected disclosure methods.
Harrison_Tang: Don't be led by Ori.
Harrison_Tang: All right any other announcements or reminders.
Harrison_Tang: Yeah updates on the work items.
Harrison_Tang: All right before we get to manage Enda last calls 
  for introductions for introductions announcements reminders work 
Kaliya Young:  Sorry internet identity Workshop is coming up 
  October 10 through 12 and it was finally confirmed this morning 
  there will be an open Wallet Foundation pre IW workshop at 9:00 
  a.m. 9:00 to 11:00 30 something like that maybe it's at 11:51 
  happening nearby IW the venue is in chosen yet but those of you 
  interested in the.
Kaliya Young:   And wallet.
Kaliya Young:  An excellent opportunity to hear about the code 
  that is already contributed and also an interactive part of the 
  event where everyone who's there will get to contribute what they 
  are doing that may be related or what they hope can happen with 
  the foundation and its work.
Harrison_Tang: Sounds good thank you.
Harrison_Tang: The on her last announcements were reminders.
Kaliya Young:  Sorry I'll just say that I'll send a link to the 
  registration when it opens hopefully before the next one of these 
  calls to the list.
Harrison_Tang: Great thank you.
Harrison_Tang: All right let's get to the main agenda so today 
  very very happy and also very glad that David from peeing 
  identity is able to take the time to present and lead a 
  discussion on Fido and web often I think he'll go into what Phi 
  do I wipe off that means and what are the differences later but 
  it's a very important standard that's being adopted across all 
  the major browser platforms that.
Harrison_Tang:  will contribute to more secure Authentication.
Harrison_Tang: Ends and accessing our accounts Beyond just 
  password so without further Ado David the floor is yours.
David_Waite: Yeah thank you for having me I was advised to turn 
  my video off once I start presenting just want to say hello to 
  everyone and I hope you enjoyed the presentation.
David_Waite: Okay so when we talking about Fido the final 
  weigh-ins and also the web authentication specifications which 
  are created within the w3c I'm going to be talking about trying 
  to talk a bit about how they fit into the larger credentials 
  ecosystem that seemed appropriate for this group a little bit 
  more details on how the system works I'll try to walk through 
  step by step.
David_Waite:  but also get a bit of an.
David_Waite: Even the current state and some of the challenges 
  because I suspect that's an area where people come into this 
  field have to do a bit more research there's a lot of momentum 
  and a little bit of a directional shift that have happened in the 
  last will say year.
David_Waite: Don't myself work on various standards Ping Identity 
  we do on-prem and hosted mostly Federated identity an MFA 
  although we have access control we also have new identity 
  verification and essential as identity products I participate in 
  web on 10 I'm also Vice chair over on the private to side that's 
  working on the kind of.
David_Waite:  adware protocols.
David_Waite: Focuses more on privacy approaches and Technologies 
  how can we you know make sure that the technology doesn't leak 
  information or enable people to be tracked even if you know 
  social realities still would.
David_Waite: Into the specification landscape web authentication 
  or often just called Web authentic is working group I believe it 
  started in 2017 and its focus is on the client-side API so how do 
  I as the web page also known as relying party how am I able to 
  interact through the browser and do stronger Authentication.
David_Waite:  this is done by bees.
David_Waite: Those devices or software that perform 
  authentication called authenticators which create an assert 
  credentials so the one of the fundamentals is that there's no 
  inherent like a federation where you have an existing account 
  that shared a website after this is I want to use this system I 
  want to get a.
David_Waite:  credential in this case it's actually.
David_Waite: Public-private key based in order to be able to 
  prove it's the same user again in the future.
David_Waite: This is also you know by virtue of being w3c has 
  user consent as part of the process it's meant to identify or 
  authenticator should say people not machines and.
David_Waite: Have to be done so with with their knowledge of 
  what's going on since that's pretty strong tracking vector.
David_Waite: The API itself supports both primary authentication 
  as well as secondary secondary being the historical source of 
  specifications and it relates to fight oh because Fido specifies 
  the kind of Hardware protocols how do you work over USB in the 
  like but also can be provided by software either provided within 
  the platform itself like Windows hello or via third party.
David_Waite: I think one password may have actually really 
  something this week that spective defines all the exchanges and 
  also the format since they're cryptographically protected it also 
  defines the extensibility mechanisms although there's caveat sand 
  that browsers typically want to know what extensions are being 
  supported so that they know the Privacy impacts of those so 
  there's typically an allowed list of what extensions are a lot.
David_Waite:  loud even if the Authenticator.
David_Waite: A clean way little bit because there's a lot of 
  different options within web authentic there's this concept of 
  discoverability so this is I come with the browser of cleared all 
  cookies I've cleared everything can a website use this API to 
  just say try to authenticate the user if I have if there's been 
  any sort of previous relationship I can't see that as website 
  because of privacy I need you.
David_Waite:  you to tell me does the user want to talk.
David_Waite: But I don't know who this so you need to have all 
  the state necessary for tracking within the client within the 
  authenticators what sort of relationships have already been 
  established older school u2f what started Run 2013 and it's kind 
  of the the source for webathon didn't have any storage so it 
  wasn't capable of working this way so you either call these non 
  discoverable or non-resident.
David_Waite: That was only useful for a second Factor really 
  because one you traffic doesn't provide a way of any doing any 
  sort of additional checks on who the person is but also you had 
  to provide a list of handles and those handles were typically 
  cryptographic information either seed values or wrapped 
  credentials because those that Hardware was limited had no local 
David_Waite:  the out pinning of this.
David_Waite: That discover one on discoverable credentials formed 
  the basis of primary factor and second Factor authentication so 
  are you supplementing something like a username and password or 
  are you trying to get like a fully pastoralist even potentially 
  user nameless experience.
David_Waite: Concept called user presents this is a gesture 
  showing that you as a user intend to authenticate that could be a 
  button on a piece of Hardware or on a software user interface or 
  could be the action of taking the piece of hardware and bring it 
  close to a NFC Reader but that only shows that you have 
  possession of the key and nowadays that may or may not even mean 
  that it's a hardware Factor so there's an.
David_Waite:  list additional concept called user.
David_Waite: Occation authenticator controls the mechanism but 
  it's way in the API to request that additional checks be 
  performed so very diverse potential ecosystem of authenticators 
  that could be a pinhead on a piece of Hardware it could be an 
  activation code being gathered by the users web browser platform 
  to unlock a piece of Hardware it could be a biometric sensor 
  built directly.
David_Waite:  and without.
David_Waite: Is that your doing additional verification that's 
  isn't just a piece of Hardware found in the street that this is 
  set up in a way to actually verify the user.
David_Waite: If I don't liance little bit older than the website 
  then effort started in 2013 with a overarching goal of reducing 
  you know ideally eliminating passwords and replacing them with 
  stronger authentication mechanisms a lot of their initial Focus 
  was around there being lots of inventions for stronger 
  authentication there were Biometrics being built into laptops for 
David_Waite: One of these had a different integration strategy 
  and so widespread adoption you just wasn't going to happen you 
  know it's the purview of browser plugins and integration on a 
  site by site basis so they started the uaf protocol which was a 
  primary factor for interfacing with hardware and software 
  authenticators Google and Yuba code contributed.
David_Waite:  adieu to F which was.
David_Waite: For second factor which actually wound up being 
  coming the underpinning for web authentication see tap to which 
  added back on top of that the idea of being primary factor by 
  adding that additional memory and so the see tap to spec 
  underneath the final alliances describing the hardware 
  interactions it also defines something called a hybrid transport 
  if you've tried web.
David_Waite:  then and.
David_Waite: Selected you want to try other mechanisms and you 
  get a qr-code pop up which I can probably show at the end if 
  people like.
David_Waite: That's actually being defined by fight alliances 
  well and that's Mitch these are basically meant to be not tighter 
  like a particular ecosystem or a particular piece of Hardware or 
  a particular vendor for being cross-device cross-platform 
  mechanisms for authenticating and then if you ever hear the term 
  fito to its kind of umbrella almost marketing term for the 
  combination of what with ahead and see tab.
David_Waite: People probably heard the term passkeys if they've 
  looked at this space saying that a pesky is an alternative to a 
  password is probably the best way to put it because it's not 
  really meant to be a technical term it's more of a conceptual 
  term it's more of how do we explain this concept to your average 
  consumer in a way we're not really having to teach them something 
  new or just leveraging their.
David_Waite:  Ting knowledge.
David_Waite: Put passwords are and just saying this is a better 
  alternative if you were to map that to technical term would be 
  the that idea of those discoverable credentials that you can go 
  to a website with no prior configuration on your local machine 
  just that prior registration of an authenticator and login so you 
  don't have to type in a username you don't have to do a lot of 
  things the the.
David_Waite: Pharmacist and helping you authenticate and they 
  provide that as kind of a consistent interface across different 
  platforms across different websites that want to use this 
  technology for the authenticators underneath it's really matter 
  of user choice that one's it being pretty diverse set it could be 
  that existing Hardware that could be done rolling platform so 
  functionality built in like Windows hello or it could be.
David_Waite: Relatively new idea of a third-party piece of 
David_Waite: So you know the lot of these are password managers 
  getting into the space although there are some Enterprise piece 
  of software that also want to provide very specific capabilities.
David_Waite: All this talking about why it's better than a 
  password this is kind of the minimum bar expectation of how those 
  are better that one is tracking resistance so while using the 
  same email address as your username across sites is going to 
  enable tracking at that level that is that these credentials are.
David_Waite:  R generate a.
David_Waite: It's per site so each site gets its own unique key 
  in those can't be used to crawl it you likewise when I visit a 
  website like a retailer or social network they don't actually see 
  I have any credentials at all registered until I give consent in 
  the form of an authentication prompt and even then again it's 
  still just proof that I'm the same person they've seen previously 
  and have.
David_Waite: Registered a credential with so it's somewhat up 
  here authentication Factor another is reach resistance so since 
  this is all based on public key cryptography even if the you know 
  backup of the credential database table gets leaked that it 
  doesn't actually enable any sort of exploits so a lot more 
  resilient to people having to go and change passwords on a bunch 
  of other websites because the right if you use the same password.
David_Waite:  awkward and one of those sites got.
David_Waite: Typically doesn't happen they just have more of 
  their identities exploited the third one is strong fish and 
  resistance so since these credentials are per site and since the 
  browser is actively mediating and providing a channel there's a 
  kind of a DNS binding of those credentials the cryptographic 
  protocol was scribes the party that it's communicating with so.
David_Waite: So as strong as the DNS and POS infrastructure of 
  the web itself so much stronger fishing resistance email 
  campaigns sitting new to the wrong website won't really succeed 
  in capturing a credential you in fact won't even be prompted to 
  supply the credential because the browser knows what it is and 
  isn't supposed to be doing there.
David_Waite: So where's this in the credential ecosystem little 
  hesitant in this group to talk too much about what is or isn't a 
  credential but these are pair wise so they're not meant to be 
  Global men There's issues with using something like an identity 
  credentials likes a driver's license for authentication in some 
  cases that might be appropriate like the actual issuing authority 
  or overarching government has.
David_Waite:  as assurances there that there's.
David_Waite: This is there are certain actions that they can 
  accept that risk whereas someone else may not know that 
  identifiers or stable or not what they move whether they move to 
  a different state whether they have another identity issue and 
  have numbers rotated or have any sort of action they can take the 
  turns out that credentials issued fraudulently so.
David_Waite:  being paralyzed.
David_Waite: The big benefit for an authentication credential 
  likewise it doesn't represent any sort of certification or 
  qualification it doesn't really have any identity attributes 
  whatsoever nor does it represent any sort of personal Authority 
  or authorization it is just authentication just previously I 
  registered this I'm the same party as I was at that point.
David_Waite: Happy Hearts there's attestation so especially as 
  you get more into regulated space you want to know how that user 
  verification is performed you also may want to know the security 
  properties of that key so for instance is the are the credentials 
  cloneable and there are mechanisms now for doing additional data 
  storage at time of registration which are used for things like 
  say taking.
David_Waite:  the underlying credential and.
David_Waite: Get into like x.509 certificate form.
David_Waite: So part in the white slide but this talks a bit 
  about the parties involved so you have the end-user you have the 
  client which is typically a web browser you have the 
  authenticator which actually does the authentication process any 
  of the relying party which is kind of in two parts since the 
  JavaScript API you're typically not trying to.
David_Waite:  authenticate the user.
David_Waite: Purpose of the script running inside the browser 
  you're typically trying to get access to improve that it's the 
  user to say some sort of back-end system this is changing 
  slightly with some new extensions that are coming but you 
  generally have that kind of division at the relying party where 
  it's kind of the front end and the back end so the process is 
  very similar whether you're registering a credential.
David_Waite:  in the first time or are using it again.
David_Waite: That the user initiates the client browser there's 
  some sort of part of the presentation webpage to kick off the 
  process ruling party usually wants to have its own interactive 
  challenge so it fetches that that gets baked into a robot then 
  request at the JavaScript level and then that gets turned by the 
  client into this case a CPAP request.
David_Waite:  and that goes to that piece.
David_Waite: I will say over USB it does in step five a check for 
  user presents or verification like see it has a biometric and 
  that creeps cryptographic response that gets sent back through 
  the client to the JavaScript within the client and then on to say 
  that the back end of the line party to actually perform 
David_Waite: So talking a bit about the current state of things.
David_Waite: So the markets pain devil is evolving quite a bit of 
  the last year while Apple had things in preview for a couple of 
  years prior last year was really the start of passkeys their 
  public facing system-wide credential system and think ability it 
  was also when Google added passkeys to.
David_Waite:  to the Android platform.
David_Waite: So adding describable credentials unifying around 
  kind of that terminology it really change the position of the 
  market before it was say very low double digits or single digits 
  adoption insights where you know it's not a closed system where 
  say an Enterprise's giving credentials to people.
David_Waite: Telling them that they need to use them to having 
  the ability to do what about then the actual authenticator to do 
  it not just browser support for interaction being pretty much 
  ubiquitous and this caused a bit of growing pains especially in 
  regulated industries that adopted webathon early because these 
  platforms have different security properties the big one is 
  recover ability and sinking.
David_Waite:  I'm so.
David_Waite: Mobile phone vendor isn't going to want people to 
  lose their ability to log into every website when they buy a new 
  phone or replace the phone that was lost or stolen however that 
  means that you're no longer really interacting with the security 
  Factor you're interacting with an authentication process behind 
  that authenticator boundary and that makes things a lot harder 
  for people to reason about when they need to understand the risk 
  and how the.
David_Waite:  this fulfills.
David_Waite: Their regulatory requirements so bit of growing 
  pains there however there has been significant investment on kind 
  of the unregulated consumer space and adoption there there's been 
  several rounds of iterative user experience refinements there's 
  been greater adoption of the passkey kind of terminology also 
  relatively recently there's been plenty.
David_Waite:  that forms the.
David_Waite: The software at a system level similar to how you 
  have autofill from password managers today at a system level so a 
  lot of the consumer password managers are seeking to become a ski 
  providers and to integrate either within the browser at that 
  system level to provide people an alternative with you know 
  different properties that's again meant to be more of a diverse 
  ecosystem where you know say.
David_Waite:  a piece of.
David_Waite: You Linux or having a open database might be very 
  compelling for some people and not really that interesting for 
David_Waite: So with this a lot of the metaphors have been 
  aligning more with password managers and that kind of go along 
  with that minimal level of assurances that you can get from 
  passkeys which is that compared to passwords that has better 
  security properties fishing resistance tracking resistance and 
  resistance in the face of compromise.
David_Waite:  so that kind of breach list.
David_Waite: Passwords we've seen the user experience aligning 
  more with autofill Behavior at login so this is nice because one 
  of the biggest problems with technology adoption is how do you 
  educate the user does every party that wants to use the system 
  have to take some responsibility for educating the user so having 
  it in the platform having a.
David_Waite:  Zur meeting.
David_Waite: That but really only shows up if they've already 
  opted into using the pass key system that really reduces the 
  amount of Education needed especially on see the homepage of the 
  website and.
David_Waite: Not having likes it model prompts that people have 
  to figure out what the system's even talking about definitely 
  reduces the chance of churn that adopting this technology would 
  cause people to just decide they don't want to deal with it right 
  now and to leave the website all together.
David_Waite: The hope is as uptake improves as we kind of see 
  wider spread adoption further ux improvements that relying 
  parties don't feel the need to explain what pass keys are to the 
  users what are they don't have to explain what a password is 
David_Waite: So in progress the standards you have web 
  authentication level 3 so this it's referred to as conditionally 
  mediated UI for that kind of Auto form fill Behavior providing 
  more information about the same credentials for websites this is 
  really meant for rejecting the credential this is meant so 
  website understands is this a piece of Hardware where if they 
David_Waite:  face it they.
David_Waite: Be able to.
David_Waite: Access my website at all or is this something like 
  something backed by a cloud account where if the user has a lost 
  or stolen phone they can recover access and be able to achieve 
  kind of account recovery on that end so what is the burden and 
  the site and they might use this knowledge to decide for instance 
  whether or not they give user to completely eliminate password 
  login options.
David_Waite:  there's a little Ben.
David_Waite: Number of quality of life improvements one of my 
  favorite is that the robot then data a lot of its binary being 
  cryptic messages one of those messages actually go all the way 
  back to you to F so that there's compatibility with some pretty 
  old like 10 plus year old Hardware at this point and 
  unfortunately a lot of the burden and dealing with those binary 
  messages and and how to coordinate with like a back-end system 
  fell on.
David_Waite:  in JavaScript.
David_Waite: Of like if you bought a product that have their own 
  libraries for how do you interact between that back-end server 
  and your webpage well in what about them level 3 there's now a 
  Json formats there's API built in to convert between kind of the 
  API configuration or responses and to be able to get Json and use 
  that for API calls to a back-end system and.
David_Waite:  with a lot of as.
David_Waite: A lot of ongoing web standards many of the features 
  are already deployed so the conditionally mediated you is already 
  been in browsers for over a year.
David_Waite: Kind of its companion over in fight alliances he tap 
  2.2 the sets that hybrid QR code based Bluetooth based web socket 
  based mechanism that some of you may have seen and this is really 
  meant to go cross device so how can I login to my desktop using 
  my cellphone and credentials they created their or even cross 
  ecosystem so how do I.
David_Waite: Sign into a Windows desktop using my Android phone.
David_Waite: So a lot of this comes down to and by Nature being 
  in the w3c and and having this investment by browsers and 
  platforms to being backed by an open-world model where it's 
  really the users choice in what authenticator they use and then 
  the relying party is meant to evaluate how well that meets the 
  requirements for some sites just being able to get fishing 
  resistance and to get some of.
David_Waite:  the properties they would normally have to do.
David_Waite: P we're out of an authenticator is as great and 
  other regulated environments the base level might not be enough 
  and the ruling party may need to do additional Factor prompts and 
  that's the public internet for you know for private parties like 
  Enterprises or government to employer government to contractor 
  there may be much further restrictions even going down to saying 
David_Waite:  I don't just want to use this.
David_Waite: Need to use one that came from our ordered batch 
  with the proper serial number with the proper configuration so 
  that information is reported to us.
David_Waite: Um that's really private parties public-facing 
  including those in regulated Industries are expected to honor the 
  users choice and and not reject some because it became from a 
  particular platform or because it doesn't have a particular 
  capability and a lot of that is both to prevent any sort of early 
  adopter Advantage but also to really allow for a diverse 
  ecosystem where.
David_Waite:  you know say someone has accessibility needs.
David_Waite: An authenticator can be built specifically for their 
  use without having to see go and get approval from the top 100 
  200 300 websites of the internet who have decided to Institute an 
  allowed list.
David_Waite: But this goes counter to at the stations so the idea 
  of how you know that say it's back to a particular piece of 
  hardware by a vendor that has particular security properties so 
  if I have safety security key fob that I'm selling into an 
  Enterprise environment at the stations are great that meets the 
  customers requirements that's part of the reason they're 
  purchasing the.
David_Waite: From soccer based authenticator I had different 
  motivations I don't want to have fingerprinting I don't want say 
  websites on the internet decided that since password manager had 
  a breach that that Pastor manager from this point forward will 
  never be acceptable on a particular website is kind of a brand of 
  penalty and you know in the web space we've seen what's happened.
David_Waite:  and with say.
David_Waite: It strains and how you know a lot of browsers wind 
  up lying either baking in the names of other browsers for regular 
  expression purposes or having a quirks mode where they just say 
  this is the value I have to return on this website in order for 
  my users to have access however it is widely recognized that 
  there's a gap between that Enterprise environment and say.
David_Waite: Character enthusiasts Forum in regulated Industries 
  such as Banks and health care where they may have requirements 
  that the the base level does not satisfy and that makes it hard 
  for them to adopt the system because they typically already have 
  complex authentication processes that they feel to meet their 
  needs so a better alternative to passwords may not be worth the 
  cognitive load it may not.
David_Waite:  be worth instituting.
David_Waite: Another option for one part of the authentication 
  process especially if they're going to be passkeys and then turn 
  around and Reliance of like SMS to try to do a uniqueness 
  constraint and that case they're adopting this and it's not 
  actually solving even any other business costs so it's a known 
  Gap there's active areas but it's also an area where the 
  different parties have very different needs.
David_Waite:  different worries different goals.
David_Waite: Active research and development it is moving slower 
  than I think anyone will like but this is why most of the 
  software base and platform-based authenticators that have come 
  out in the last year don't have at the station says because 
  there's not really a desire to have people locked into particular 
  platform to have websites decided they just aren't going to 
David_Waite: Particular items so they've been a little bit of 
  Anonymous in terms of how that credentials being source with 
  backing authenticator is so I can speak a little bit to those in 
  Q&A which I believe.
David_Waite:  we're now at.
David_Waite: If people would like.
Harrison_Tang: Any questions for David by the way I have one 
  question so earlier in your slides you mentioned that the web 
  platforms have adopted their level one web application and then 
  you describe the level of 3 so the natural question is like what 
  is level 2 and then is there a level four.
David_Waite: So so level one was the initial version level to had 
  a lot of kind of adoption features more focused on Enterprise 
  adoption so it added things like Enterprise at two stations this 
  would be how with either machine policy so say a Windows or other 
  emm policy or via policy on the hardware key itself.
David_Waite: Identify internal websites and perhaps release more 
  information than people would normally be comfortable with such 
  as a serial number so if I use antibiotics key on an Enterprise 
  site maybe a uniquely identifies the key and so they can track 
  what your batch it came from which employee was issued to 
  definitely not what they want for Seattle stations on the public 
  internet in fact final lines the certification.
David_Waite:  and one of the other.
David_Waite: At the station and say I think 50,000 or 100,000 
  device batches so you can kind of tell which weeks say yubikey 
  was manufactured in but you can't get too many bits of 
  information about a particular user based on the key that's being 
  used Enterprise environment very different requirements so how do 
  you opt in t tab 2.1 that's kind of the.
David_Waite:  corresponding spec there and so it.
David_Waite: Like if I if that key gets out of the employees 
  control say they leave the company and they reset it and put it 
  on eBay making sure that Enterprise policy is cleared out so it 
  acts just the same as any other key from that manufacturer not 
  something that has kind of a surface an unknown policy and that 
  changes privacy characteristics so making sure certified devices 
  have of.
David_Waite:  reset policy that would clear out.
David_Waite: I was loaded on them.
David_Waite: That was level to a lot of cleanups a lot of areas 
  where there was opportunity for improvement the discoverable 
  credential it came from that and some of that was because in 
  level 1 there was a residency term that Resident non-resident if 
  it's in memory but it turns out that was really more the hardware 
  roots from the sea tab side the u12 side and not really usability 
  focused and.
David_Waite:  and that actually cause some conflicts where.
David_Waite: On the Windows platform whatever you request it's 
  always residents are always created by the Crypt of subsystem and 
  always put onto a file system because storage is not a premium 
  but those were actually meant to be usability terms and so 
  websites would find out that they never meant for particular 
  credential to be used some way but it was still showing up and 
  say a list of the user even though.
David_Waite:  will never work.
David_Waite: Very inconsistent between authenticators and 
  platforms that this new terminology came about in level 2 so 
  there's a bit of more of a focus on what the behavior of things 
  were supposed to be rather than what the hardware capability of 
  things were supposed to be the browser's themselves had different 
  levels of adoption so.
David_Waite: Being a bit I believe they're not level 2.
David_Waite: Which is in the current published spec and then 
  level 3 I believe the goal is to have it go to see our early next 
  year but we'll see where that is there's a lot of really 
  interesting things that may wind up pushing it back.
Harrison_Tang: Got it and if you're a website like and trying to 
  integrate with wipe off then you're just interacting with the 
  platforms like apis right like why do you care about attestations 
  of the hardware or different authenticators.
David_Waite: So at the stations are kind of made to be a heavy 
  lift or you can say some of that is implicit and you know 
  optimizing for more the consumer cases some of it may be a little 
  bit intentional because there's definitely an idea that for an 
  open web model add two stations or something that they don't want 
  a lot of people using just because there.
David_Waite: If all you want to do is about then to do basically 
  Pass key is and you don't care about active stations you have a 
  significantly smaller lift once you get into act two stations 
  different Hardware May produce different formats that the station 
  itself doesn't really prove much just kind of identifies the make 
  and model so you'll have independent certification bodies like 
  Fido Alliance that provide.
David_Waite:  tables to kind of map that into capabilities.
David_Waite: Students like you know this random number generator 
  have a compromise or someone figured out how to exfiltrate 
  information off of the key big kind of maintain certification 
  levels and kind of active states of those keys but you kind of 
  take all that if not on in order to consume active stations 
  there's also some of this may go away in the future but.
David_Waite:  there's currently also props to release those out 
  to sea.
David_Waite: That is because it's hard to know that a 
  non-conforming authenticated that hasn't gone through a 
  certification process that they're not uniquely identifying the 
  user but it's also just a little bit of an additional burden for 
  people to take at the stations that if you don't need them you 
  really shouldn't be asking for them and a lot of that comes back 
  to that open mic model it just.
David_Waite:  people don't want websites to say.
David_Waite: We're only going to accept this brand on the public 
  internet they don't want to get to a point where someone has to 
  carry 12 key fobs on their key ring and figure out which one gets 
  into which website just because we're different security 
  restrictions that quite honestly are arbitrary.
Harrison_Tang: Thanks any other questions.
Harrison_Tang: And David you mind going a little bit deeper into 
  kind of like the password recovery equivalent process right and 
  also does the passkey you kind of have an expiration date and or 
  does it is it like permanent.
David_Waite: Sure so there's no key rotation process the ideas I 
  can just register a new passkey and there's a user handle 
  provided by the relying party so if the same authenticator gets a 
  new credential with the same handle it just reads it just creates 
  a new credential replaces the old one so.
David_Waite: Rotation it just not really an expiry otherwise the 
  relying party would have to make the determination that I kind of 
  want a new one in terms of recovery so from a typical Hardware 
  security key perspective there isn't any and that's been that was 
  a huge adoption issue identify you know right up until a year ago 
  that if I lose my security key then all of a sudden.
David_Waite:  and I don't have a way to.
David_Waite: On WE authenticate these sites so if their whole 
  purpose of adopting this was to get like a Al to say level of 
  authentication you can't have recovery be the weakest link and so 
  you know the whole water level went up an Enterprise so that 
  you're not doing strong authentication with email magic link 
  recovery but the.
David_Waite: So the guidance was well by multiple security keys 
  and periodically go back at have websites support multiple 
  passkeys and periodically go back and register your backup key 
  from the safe with those various websites and this is you know 
  even for someone in the security industry pretty difficult and so 
  there was a proposal by yubico to.
David_Waite:  have a protocol that's kind of a.
David_Waite: Future introduction between keys where I could 
  provide basically proof that Mikey was one that was mentioned in 
  a previous registration or use there were some prototypes of that 
  they didn't really get too much adoption issue interest mostly 
  because every relying party would have to take the effort to 
  support that new protocol and extension or else you know you were 
  still at the same state where.
David_Waite:  are there wasn't really any sort of built.
David_Waite:  The platform's basically.
David_Waite: You treat passkeys as part of the sink fabric they 
David_Waite: Or passwords so the private keys are protected and 
  synchronized in the cloud through whatever mechanism they have 
  there were some improvements I believe to some of that some sir.
David_Waite: Cloud HSM and you're really recovering access to use 
  that cloud HSM but the idea where there was I still might get 
  locked out because I might get at locked out of say my Google 
  account or Apple account so you still need a recovery story but 
  the recovery burden is written release reduced on the relying 
  party because it's a much more exceptional flow rather than I 
David_Waite:  I updated a piece of hardware and now I realize it 
  can never.
David_Waite: Here at the same time the other part there is that 
  whole hybrid that's in c-type 2.2 the cross-device authentication 
  based on the QR codes and Bluetooth and a bunch of other things 
  but the idea there is if I use my Android phone on my Windows 
  desktop to get in a relying party could just offer it could 
  detect that.
David_Waite:  at and say.
David_Waite: Don't you just add Windows hello so you don't have 
  to go through this in the future assuming this isn't some sort of 
  kiosk there's no reason you should have to use your phone to get 
  into your desktop because we can just give your desktop access as 
  well and so that also means that it kind of AIDS you and 
  registering multiple credentials he had multiple ways back in so 
  it none of that's a silver bullet you know nobody's invented the 
  Silver Bullet solution.
David_Waite:  for Recovery yet but every.
David_Waite: Bird and then makes it so that recovery is a less 
  often behavior and that therefore means that's going to be more 
  scrutiny about it.
Harrison_Tang: Got it thanks for clarification.
Harrison_Tang: I have a business question I got quite a bit of 
  questions about I'm quite interesting this topic have a kind of 
  business question I'm just curious like because you know the 
  platforms like Chrome browsers like oh have passwords like 
  password managers right and then he supports the web Athens and 
  you know and then a Mac like it integrates with the touch IDs and 
Harrison_Tang:  like that so I'm just curious.
Harrison_Tang: The role of third-party password managers 
  especially when the platforms already have have these features 
  kind of baked in.
David_Waite: You know it's a lot of it is evolutionary speed so a 
  company dedicated to building user-facing or family or say 
  Enterprise facing password managers has more resources that 
  they're probably willing to put on those products more desire to 
  iterate and innovate.
David_Waite: You know someone very recent feature as a yesterday 
  is that the Apple password manager added groups so that you could 
  have a set of passwords and passkey shared with your family quite 
  honestly I didn't think they would ever do that and it's not 
  because it's not valuable is because I didn't know if it'd make 
  the cut because there's a certain amount of cognitive load and 
  there's ongoing support and from their perspective it's a feature 
  not a product so.
David_Waite:  so you know same with why would I.
David_Waite: Additional software I think a lot of it is you know 
  the ability to cater to the needs of your customers which may be 
  different than the needs of everyone using pass keys and so 
  having a consistent interface across platforms so knowing that 
  works identical on singing Mac and on Android phone any support 
  they have in the future for something like.
David_Waite:  X which doesn't have a.
David_Waite: Platform level feature for we'll both end and pass 
  key is yet but I know there's people that have been looking into 
  that you know all those sorts of things differentiate the the 
  accessibility is a area I'm really interested in seeing what sort 
  of you know very targeted Evolution could happen to help people 
  with specific needs and.
David_Waite: Freeze all ships that may become table Stakes when 
  people realize oh this is excellent this is the baby should have 
  done at all along but if you don't have more velocity and more 
  experimentation than that realization may never happen.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you I think we're at time and I just want to 
  say thank you big thank you again David for taking a time here to 
  present in deep discussion and answer a bunch of my question that 
  I have for a long time about by do a wipe off that but thanks a 
<tallted> link to the deck? :-)
David_Waite: Yeah and if you or anyone else has additional 
  questions and kind of this space feel free to reach out you know 
  there were it was talking the past of whether or not the act of 
  stations that fire do created where usable for wallets generally 
  don't think that's a great idea but.
David_Waite: Willing to talk about perhaps in the mailing list 
  but if yeah if anyone has questions you can also reach out to me 
Harrison_Tang: Sounds good and by the late David if you don't 
  mind can you kind of share the link to the slide to me after the 
  meeting or or just like feel free to just reply back to the 
David_Waite: I'll send it to you I'll send it as a PDF.
Harrison_Tang: Sounds good thank you thanks a lot.
David_Waite: Everyone thanks for having me.
Harrison_Tang: All right have a good one.

Received on Wednesday, 20 September 2023 05:37:50 UTC